Tungsten carbide die?

[private fraser]

I haven't reloaded since I shot pistols many years ago and back then I used to use Lee tungsten carbide dies as you didn't need to lubricate the cases.
Is this the case with reloading for rifle calibres?

Thanks for info

fraser

 

[Si308]

Don't think so. I load 223, 6.5x47 and 308 and lube all mine. I think that the tc dies are for straight cases not bottle neck. There will be someone no doubt who has way more experience thant me who may be able to add to this. It is a pain to lube the cases but more of a pain to remove a stuck case!

Hope that helps


Si

 

[saddler]

NO

Even WITH a t/c pistol die, the advice IS to still lubricate - though if you choose not to the case will not stick in the die as it would do with a steel die

The rifle dies SHOULD still be used with lubricated brass, as it will make the working of the brass easier & prolong case life

 

[Muir]

NO

Even WITH a t/c pistol die, the advice IS to still lubricate - though if you choose not to the case will not stick in the die as it would do with a steel die

The rifle dies SHOULD still be used with lubricated brass, as it will make the working of the brass easier & prolong case life

Say what?
No.... You don't lube carbide pistol dies for straight walled cartridges. You must lube bottle necked cases.~Muir

 

[saddler]

Say what?
No.... You don't lube carbide pistol dies for straight walled cartridges. You must lube bottle necked cases.~Muir

Not the dies - the cases

Modern Reloading - Richard Lee - 2nd Edition - Chapter 4 - page 71

Carbide dies usually eliminate the need to lubricate the cases. There are exceptions. If cases are excessively clean, some of the brass will rub off on the carbide. The dirt, soot, oxides and oil on the case keep the case from galling the carbide. None of the foreign matter on the brass case is hard enough to damage the carbide die. If you clean your cases in a vibrator with fresh media, you may need a slight amount of lube. Even a very light spray of furniture polish will work...Tapered cases such as the 9mm and 30 M1 Carbine need some lube. Usually lubricating an occassional case will leave enough lube in the die for a few without lube.

I ALWAYS go with the latter advice of lubing every 5th or 6th case when using carbide pistol dies.
Makes the press operation much soother...and does NO HARM to the cases or dies...seems to be quite common from the reloading forums I am on too

 

[private fraser]

Are tungsten carbide dies available then?, and if so, is there any advantage to using them ?.

Thanks,

fraser

 

[saddler]

Are tungsten carbide dies available then?, and if so, is there any advantage to using them ?.

Thanks,

fraser

They are more common with pistol/revolver reloading

Recently a few companies either offer rifle dies in carbide option, or some are doing retro fit carbide sizer buttons for certain brands of rifle die.

Carbide is very strong and resistant to wear/tear/abrasion - so the dies tend not to wear out.
Not many companies offer rifle dies as a carbide option - but more offer the retro fir carbide sizer buttons - have a look at the Sinclair catalogue for more info.

 

[Muir]

Not the dies - the cases



I ALWAYS go with the latter advice of lubing every 5th or 6th case when using carbide pistol dies.
Makes the press operation much soother...and does NO HARM to the cases or dies...seems to be quite common from the reloading forums I am on too

Got me there!
I still won't lubricate the cases. What the hell is the point of carbide, then? For what it's worth, I've never had to lube cases in T/C dies and never had a galling problem.~Muir

 

[Muir]

They are more common with pistol/revolver reloading

Recently a few companies either offer rifle dies in carbide option, or some are doing retro fit carbide sizer buttons for certain brands of rifle die.

Carbide is very strong and resistant to wear/tear/abrasion - so the dies tend not to wear out.
Not many companies offer rifle dies as a carbide option - but more offer the retro fir carbide sizer buttons - have a look at the Sinclair catalogue for more info.

I looked at sets of RCBS T/C dies this weekend in .223SB and 308 SB. I didn't get a chill running down my leg when I saw them. If you reloaded a heck of a lot of one kind of ammo... I mean on the semi commercial level... they might be useful in that they will be harder to wear and not as easier to scratch.~Muir

 

[ejg]

One way of lapping / working tungsten carbide or harder materials is to rub hard ceramic powder or diamond into brass or copper. This then works like a file.
sand or grit on cases is similar and could wear dies quite efficiently.
edi

 

[saddler]

My take on T/C is that they are harder metal - so less wear, they can be made to better tolerances, they have less chance of galling than steel so cause less working (& hence case hardening) to the brass, they improve case life by being too hard to absorb foreign matter that would then transfer to the brass or otherwise cause damage to the brass cases...and they have a better friction rating/are smoother so DO need less case lube compared to steel dies

 

[j0e_bl0ggs]

Tungsten carbide is an inorganic chemical compound carbide containing equal parts of Tungsten and Carbon atoms. Colloquially among workers in various industries (such as Machining and Carpentry), tungsten carbide is often simply called carbide (without precise distinction from other carbides). In its most basic form, tungsten carbide is a fine grey powder, but it can be pressed and formed into shapes for use in industrial machinery, cutting tools, abrasives, other tools and instruments, and jewelry. Tungsten carbide is approximately three times stiffer than steel, with a Young's modulus of approximately 550 GP and is much denser than steel or titanium. It is comparable with aluminium oxide or sapphire in hardness and can only be polished and finished with abrasives of superior hardness such as CBN - cubic boron nitride and diamond amongst others, in the form of powder, wheels, and compounds.

Less wear is true - significantly less wear!

Absolutely no difference in tolerance!

Galling in steel only may happen with steel cases, but more likely to jam due to lack of lube.
If you can achieve 'galling' man there is some serious abuse of tools going on!!!

Absorbing foreign matter, well steel dies do not 'absorb' foreign matter either. Dirty dies on the other hand will score brass regardless of steel or carbide.

Friction coefficients are better with carbide and even improved if a titanium nitride type of coating is used.

Smoother again is a misunderstanding they are not 'smoother' the polish will be about the same as steel dies.

As to die making - dies are made to size cases to a recognised minimum dimension so that ammunition will perform in the majority of firearms chambered for the particular cartridge, so forget 'works brass less', it will work the brass exactly the same.
There is a wrinkle in pistol straight wall calibres in as much as the die will not be a full length die rather a ring of carbide which will size the case down, a little like a drawing die.

Hope this clears things up a little.

 

[1066]

Got me there!
I still won't lubricate the cases. What the hell is the point of carbide, then? For what it's worth, I've never had to lube cases in T/C dies and never had a galling problem.~Muir

I've loaded tens of thousands of straight walled pistol cases with the TC dies and never lubed one - Those non-TC dies I used in odd calibres were a real pain to load.

I think you would have to load a great may rifle rounds through a standard die for normal wear and tear to be a problem as long as a nornal lube routine is used.

 

[ejg]

Tungsten carbide is an inorganic chemical compound carbide containing equal parts of Tungsten and Carbon atoms. Colloquially among workers in various industries (such as Machining and Carpentry), tungsten carbide is often simply called carbide (without precise distinction from other carbides). In its most basic form, tungsten carbide is a fine grey powder, but it can be pressed and formed into shapes for use in industrial machinery, cutting tools, abrasives, other tools and instruments, and jewelry. Tungsten carbide is approximately three times stiffer than steel, with a Young's modulus of approximately 550 GP and is much denser than steel or titanium. It is comparable with aluminium oxide or sapphire in hardness and can only be polished and finished with abrasives of superior hardness such as CBN - cubic boron nitride and diamond amongst others, in the form of powder, wheels, and compounds.

Less wear is true - significantly less wear!

Absolutely no difference in tolerance!

Galling in steel only may happen with steel cases, but more likely to jam due to lack of lube.
If you can achieve 'galling' man there is some serious abuse of tools going on!!!

Absorbing foreign matter, well steel dies do not 'absorb' foreign matter either. Dirty dies on the other hand will score brass regardless of steel or carbide.

Friction coefficients are better with carbide and even improved if a titanium nitride type of coating is used.

Smoother again is a misunderstanding they are not 'smoother' the polish will be about the same as steel dies.

As to die making - dies are made to size cases to a recognised minimum dimension so that ammunition will perform in the majority of firearms chambered for the particular cartridge, so forget 'works brass less', it will work the brass exactly the same.
There is a wrinkle in pistol straight wall calibres in as much as the die will not be a full length die rather a ring of carbide which will size the case down, a little like a drawing die.

Hope this clears things up a little.

agree, very good.
One just has to remember Tungsten carbide on it's own is only a powder. This is the mostly mixed with cobalt powder
and after the pressing is sintered in a liquid fase sintering (vs solid fase sintering of Aluminiumoxide).
The cobalt holds the tungsten powder together. Ammount of cobalt, grain size and distribution of tungsten powder dictate physical properties.
I guess tungsten carbide contains between 30 and up to over 50 volume % Cobalt. If I remember right Nickel is an alternative matrix.

edi

 

[Muir]

I've loaded tens of thousands of straight walled pistol cases with the TC dies and never lubed one - Those non-TC dies I used in odd calibres were a real pain to load.

I think you would have to load a great may rifle rounds through a standard die for normal wear and tear to be a problem as long as a nornal lube routine is used.

Agreed. I have some dies I bought 2nd hand in 1979 that still produce excellent ammunition after loading about 200-400 rounds a year. The dies are dated 1967.

I remember the first set of carbide dies I got. For a .357 magnum. I'd been loading 200 rounds a week using standard lube (worse! RCBS "Case Honey" as it was called then) and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I slid the first case through my dies. Soon after I got carbide for all of my straight-walled handgun calibers and the ones that were bottlenecks like the 32-20 and 44-40... well.... they didn't get shot as much as before!~Muir

 

[MONGOOSE]

I use carbide tools at work, carbide tips mills drills the lot they can be driven a lot harder than HSS but they are much more brittle than steel and often chip, we save all the used carbide and it's recycled and fetches quite a high price per kilogram apparently they grind them up and use them in the making of security doors and safes and I could imagine it would be resistant to almost anything you could throw at it

 

[Windknot]

Carbide rifle dies are intended for high volume reloaders, so if you go through more than 1000 rounds a month they are just the job for you. However cases still need to be lubed.