Tungsten shot as an alternative to lead?

I'll be making a lot more soon and hopefully not destroy several shotguns in the process. I've bought a heap of paper for patterning and I'm going to standardise on 12.5mm pine for penetration tests as its cheap and relatively standard spec so it makes comparison between sizes and composition like lead legitimate. Enjoy the info because even making simple videos like the ones I post here costs hundreds of pounds and hours of testing and people get that knowledge for free.
May I suggest NOT pine or other wood? Use today's equivalent of Payne-Galwey's "Pettit Pads"? The Post It Note? The advantage being once used you can just strip off the top most note and keep that as you record AND it is easier to count true penetration layer by layer. Via eBay not only can standard 76mm squares be bought but also haxagon shapes of similar size.
 
May I suggest NOT pine or other wood? Use today's equivalent of Payne-Galwey's "Pettit Pads"? The Post It Note? The advantage being once used you can just strip off the top most note and keep that as you record AND it is easier to count true penetration layer by layer. Via eBay not only can standard 76mm squares be bought but also haxagon shapes of similar size.
I used the yellow pages soaked in water for my penetration tests when I first started homeloading. It helps because the pages are numbered so you don't have to use valuable brain power counting.
 
May I suggest NOT pine or other wood? Use today's equivalent of Payne-Galwey's "Pettit Pads"? The Post It Note? The advantage being once used you can just strip off the top most note and keep that as you record AND it is easier to count true penetration layer by layer. Via eBay not only can standard 76mm squares be bought but also haxagon shapes of similar size.

Soft treated pine fence palings are cheap easy to attach and are made to a standard. I just screwed a lot together and can unscrew them as quick. I don't like paper because the impact cuts the paper well ahead of the pellet. I think its easier with the layers of wood. Either it penetrated or it didn't.
 
“Long and short is that 20 Gauge TSS BBs will be lethal both in penetration and pattern to 70m+ on deer/boar size animals.”

Sooner you than me if that is your plan, an injured boar (or deer) is no joke, but especially if it is heading your way.
 
The problem with TSS is the idiots who think because its balistically superior, that they should be blasting away with it at 70+ yards all the time.
 
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Well today I shot a fox at least 40 yards. At least 6 pellets hit in the head and 4 in the brain box. All #7 TSS penetrated. With the sloping bone even #2 or BB lead is not a skull bone penetration. No bad for 27grams.

 
I used to reload 2 3/4 inch hevi shot loads when I lived in California.
It flattened the ducks and geese, and you could go 1 or 2 sizes smaller than steel.
Cost about $1 per shot to reload though.
 
@mchughcb , Hoping this finds you well.
Is there somewhere we can still access your TSS load development videos? (I'm guessing they fell foul of some of YTs asinine content policies)
Also, it would be really interesting to know whether your experiences with TSS over the last few months have suggested any refinements to your loads or loading procedures.
 
@mchughcb , Hoping this finds you well.
Is there somewhere we can still access your TSS load development videos? (I'm guessing they fell foul of some of YTs asinine content policies)
Also, it would be really interesting to know whether your experiences with TSS over the last few months have suggested any refinements to your loads or loading procedures.

It was I that removed the TSS development videos. The reason was that I found the TSS was damaging the chamber and the forcing cones. I recently had the forcing cones lengthened but somehow the TSS was getting in front of the wad and impacting on the walls of the chambers. By the time I cut down the 2.75" shells they were closer to 2.5". The chambers were 3". It appears the pellets were still getting ahead of the wad, damaging the chamber, then forcing cone. The barrels seem okay as the pellets by this stage.

I'm going to think very carefully how to proceed. I'll chase this up in the next week or so and maybe go with 3" chambers and the put a duplex load in a BPI wad. The front of the wad maybe steel or lead to protect the chamber, forcing cones and barrel.
The TSS was gouging out the steel, quite incredible really so I couldn't persist with the current reloading setup without severe damage to my 20 bores.

Having said all that, the TSS is unbelievable killing power and I have the video's to prove it. Foxes at 70m with #7 with a 1 oz load will not survive. Foxes at 40m will have the #7 pellets go straight through. Foxes at 62m with #9 die. Ducks at 40m with #10 die.

So given I still have a big stash of #10, #9, #7, BBs I will continue to experiment but not until I get what I think are the right components to prevent gun damage.
 
It was I that removed the TSS development videos. The reason was that I found the TSS was damaging the chamber and the forcing cones. I recently had the forcing cones lengthened but somehow the TSS was getting in front of the wad and impacting on the walls of the chambers. By the time I cut down the 2.75" shells they were closer to 2.5". The chambers were 3". It appears the pellets were still getting ahead of the wad, damaging the chamber, then forcing cone. The barrels seem okay as the pellets by this stage.

I'm going to think very carefully how to proceed. I'll chase this up in the next week or so and maybe go with 3" chambers and the put a duplex load in a BPI wad. The front of the wad maybe steel or lead to protect the chamber, forcing cones and barrel.
The TSS was gouging out the steel, quite incredible really so I couldn't persist with the current reloading setup without severe damage to my 20 bores.

Having said all that, the TSS is unbelievable killing power and I have the video's to prove it. Foxes at 70m with #7 with a 1 oz load will not survive. Foxes at 40m will have the #7 pellets go straight through. Foxes at 62m with #9 die. Ducks at 40m with #10 die.

So given I still have a big stash of #10, #9, #7, BBs I will continue to experiment but not until I get what I think are the right components to prevent gun damage.
It happens becaouse as the wad leaves the cartridge but still in the chamber the petals open and the shot comes in contact with the chamber wall and cones before the pettels close again in the barrel. Loading to exact and I mean exact chamber length stops this issue, also heavy mylar wraps stop and wad cutting in the cones.
I cut 3" cases to my exact chamber length and 3.5" cases to exact 3" chamber length. a lot of people do not realise that most chambers are longer than stamped size..
 
It happens becaouse as the wad leaves the cartridge but still in the chamber the petals open and the shot comes in contact with the chamber wall and cones before the pettels close again in the barrel. Loading to exact and I mean exact chamber length stops this issue, also heavy mylar wraps stop and wad cutting in the cones.
I cut 3" cases to my exact chamber length and 3.5" cases to exact 3" chamber length. a lot of people do not realise that most chambers are longer than stamped size..
From what I have seen you are right. Ive got a bunch of 3" steel Winchester compression hulls i can fire and then use. Hopefully that will solve this problem
 
Just as an aside, the FSA have based their advice on lead in game on no studies, citing instead the FSA in Scotland as having carried out a 'study' - here https://www.foodstandards.gov.scot/downloads/Risk_Assessment.pdf

The findings in this report, never mind the conclusions are ambiguous. Evidence is taken often from worst case scenarios of samples. In their assessments of the possible increase in systolic blood pressure,(1%) as with other assessments, no apparent traits in the individual physiology of patients is brought in to the analysis, nor is a predisposition mentioned in the suggested 10 % increase in liver problems.
Overall, its a bit 'TRUMPISH' - based on the outcome desired and to neuter all risk (there will be some to children who regularly consume meat where no attempt is made to remove any damaged meat/shot who appear to be at risk - who would ?. The paper suggests 80% of all 'small game' cooked, is cooked in wine and wine being acidic makes lead 'bioavailable', who gives wine cooked venison to kids ? (Deer is small game)
I dont think any of this stands up to close scrutiny - we seem, as stalkers to be doing everything correctly. I am afraid it appears to be the nanny state at its best, without thought for the impact of poor scientific analysis on anything (except shooting). To support this kind of lax analysis is, in my view, simple capitulation to the 'general view' when we need much better scientific studies to challenge what our orgs accept, because of a few idiots and the 'commercial consequences of failing to follow flawed analysis - just a personal view since the forces supporting shooting have capitulated without an exchange of facts.

Simply put,
dont give your children game which has not been processed correctly and cooked in wine, or your wife if she's pregnant - otherwise ...................................

I would be happy to hear from anyone with a differing and scientific knowledge of why so much fuss has been made ?
I think it is highly dubious.

So the median concentration in wild venison is 0.01 mg/kg but the average is 0.195 mg/kg after excluding 3 high dosage instances from a total of 161 samples. Eh, how is that sample size appropriate to base a decision on, why remove only 3 carcasses from it. Just because they were high numbers ?

Other foreign data sources quote numbers based on not cutting out damaged meat. So they then charge on with some calculations based on 0.195.

The legal concentration limit is 0.1 mg/Kg. Even using this average an adult eating 120g of venison twice a week has an intake of 0.088 mg/Kg. So where is the problem there?

For a properly shot and butchered deer (I am making assumptions here) then the average should be nearer the median concentration of 0.01 mg/Kg so my intake would be 0.004 mg/Kg.

No problem !

Pheasant on the other hand would be about 0.704 mg/Kg so 7x the legal concentration limit if eaten twice a week.
 
@mchughcb - thanks for your updates. I'm sorry to hear of the erosion caused by the TSS contacting the barrel walls at the forcing cones. Do you think continued shooting of such loads would continue to remove barrel steel from the forcing cones, or would erosion cease once the shot had reprofiled the cones in accordance with its own material and ballistic properties?
@levigsp - what method do you use to measure the chamber length on your guns?
I'm thinking it may be wise to acquire a cheap gun to use as a sacrificial test-bed when learning to load TSS!
 
I think it is highly dubious.

So the median concentration in wild venison is 0.01 mg/kg but the average is 0.195 mg/kg after excluding 3 high dosage instances from a total of 161 samples. Eh, how is that sample size appropriate to base a decision on, why remove only 3 carcasses from it. Just because they were high numbers ?

Other foreign data sources quote numbers based on not cutting out damaged meat. So they then charge on with some calculations based on 0.195.

The legal concentration limit is 0.1 mg/Kg. Even using this average an adult eating 120g of venison twice a week has an intake of 0.088 mg/Kg. So where is the problem there?

For a properly shot and butchered deer (I am making assumptions here) then the average should be nearer the median concentration of 0.01 mg/Kg so my intake would be 0.004 mg/Kg.

No problem !

Pheasant on the other hand would be about 0.704 mg/Kg so 7x the legal concentration limit if eaten twice a week.
One of the biggest challenges is not so much the cooking process but:

1) lead actually sitting in the meat - meat is acidic so any lead will leach a little bit into the meat. When frozen any activity will be minimised.

2) cooking may or may not add additional acid, but does raise the temp so speeds up any reactions. But the big challenge is stomach acids. Stomach acids - depending on species are pretty acidic, vultures a lot more so than man, but man is pretty similar to battery acid. A hearty meal of game will likely be a protein and fat rich meal thus will remain in the stomach and intestines for many hours. Some of the lead will be dissolved and adsorbed into the body. Once in body tissues, body cannot remove it. It may only a very few micro grams per meal - probably just enough to polish a lead pellet, but over time it builds up.

I have posted links elsewhere of work that has been done at the MD Cancer Clinic that shows a very clear link between elevated levels of lead in the blood and Leukaemia and Small cell lung cancer. The studies were only published last year, but the acerage level of lead in the cohort with leukaemia was 25nano mols per litre of blood, compared to zero in the healthy population.

The team is looking at ways to improve outcomes to leukaemia, in particular acute myeloid leukaemia. Studies show that by removing the lead, the disease is then treatable with very good long term outcome. Currently AML is pretty much a terminal condition.

Knowing the above, I personally am not going to put any lead into the human food chain.

As for Tungsten Matrix, it is recommended you only use 1/2 choke or less, and ideally in steel shot prooved guns. I am not convinced that combining tungsten powder with a plastic binding / matrix is a particularly good thing.

Ongoing developments of steel shot, especially steel shoot with high velocity loads works well. I have used the latest generation loads on the foreshore and ducks and geese fall down dead from a good range.

And the manufacturers are responding with steel shot loads suitable for most guns.

Yes they may not be suitable for tightly choked 100 year old game guns whose barrels are worn to min wall thickness.

And you might need the chokes reemed out on your AyA No 3 (choked 1/2 and full), but that is not beyond the realms of most gunsmiths for not a lot of money.

But for 90% of game shooting they work. And for the other 10%, well thats probably the job for a modern long barreled heavy over and under, or for your old Purdey or H&H, spend the same money on a new set of barrels suitable for steel shot - or use Bismuth - which will, at £1 plus a shot, make you pick your shots.
 
@mchughcb - thanks for your updates. I'm sorry to hear of the erosion caused by the TSS contacting the barrel walls at the forcing cones. Do you think continued shooting of such loads would continue to remove barrel steel from the forcing cones, or would erosion cease once the shot had reprofiled the cones in accordance with its own material and ballistic properties?
@levigsp - what method do you use to measure the chamber length on your guns?
I'm thinking it may be wise to acquire a cheap gun to use as a sacrificial test-bed when learning to load TSS!
I have a aluminum round bar same diameter as cartridge tight fit in chamber 6" long. I push it in the chamber and measure whats protruding and subtract from toal to give me chamber leanth. the bar staps at the forcing cone, simple but exact.
if you keep putting shells through agun that allow tungston to hit the cones its not many shots before its erroded so much it will be out of proof.
 
@levigsp Thanks. Are these gauges from Brownells equivalent?
Re. erosion and proof, IIRC, the bore diameter needs to have been increased by 10 thousandths of an inch over the measurement stamped at proof at 9 inches from the breech. That's quite a long forcing cone! Extending the chambers also requires re-proof, but given your point about actual variation in factory chambers of the same nominal length, I wonder how much leeway is allowed there. In short, even with significant erosion in the forcing cone, it may be a while before the barrel is out-of-proof.
I'm also wondering how the commercial manufacturers of TSS cartridges manage to ensure their ammunition is compatible with the wide range of guns shooters may buy it for. Have they designed plaswads specifically for these loads?
I must confess that I'm much happier about lobbing lead into the landscape than I am with scattering bits of plastic everywhere, so my interest in TSS is primarily ballistic.
 
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