Variable COAL with Lee bullet seating die

[urban]

I just started loading .223. I have previously only loaded 6.5 CM. I'm using Lee dies.

My first set of completed rounds vary in COAL between 57.43mm and 57.77mm. I'm measuring from head to bullet tip with good calipers. I'm aware that this is not ideal because bullet tips can vary so I measured a load of bullets to see if the variability was just this. But they varied by only 0.12mm (vs 0.34mm for the finished rounds). So it seems like the seating depth is inconsistent.

What am I doing wrong, do you think?

Bullets are PPU 75gr HPBT. Cases are once fired magtech.

 

[Cyres]

You have to measure off the ogive. What powder and cases are you using ? Are all the cases from the same batch? Possible load compression if there is a variance in case volumes. Also possibly the bullet design does not fit with the shape and design of the Lee die.
Loading long heavy bullets might benefit from using a micrometer style die.
My advice would be for you to buy a box of brand new Lapua match brass. You might also need to use Remmy 7.5 primers as CCI SRP may be too soft and pierce.
D

 

[shakey jake]

how do they shoot? if your getting the group you want why does it matter?

 

[JTO]

Could it be that the primers are not being completely inserted? Measure the overall length of the primed cases before you start charging them.

 

[bluesako]

ditch the lee stuff and get better dies

 

[NullMac]

So 4 thou on a PPU bullet. Not a big deal. 13 thou loaded. If you are loading PPU with Lee dies then you are not going for 0.2 moa precision. So provided (!) you are not so close to the lands that you could have some jamming on a load that was developed off the lands then you are good to go. ie you think you are 50 thou off the lands and some are (perhaps) only 40 thou off then it is safe. If you are trying to be fancy Dan and be only 10 thou off then it is a bit dodgy.

As noted above you should have a comparator that allows you to measure off the ogive to be precise. I am not particularly surprised there is a bit of variation just measuring off the tips. I do it as well (naughty boy) but with more expensive bullets and generally the better the bullet the less variation. ie maybe a couple of thou on a loaded round

Lee seaters are bloody awful (have a look at the runout variation, you won't even need a gauge), so if it is annoying you then pick up a second hand one from a better manufacturer.

 

[Donkey Basher]

Obvious stuff - make sure primers are seated just below the face of the head so you have a true datum.

Then measure seating depth not to the top of the bullet but using a comparator fitted to the calipers - this will ensure you’re not picking up a false measurement due to variations in the tip of the bullet.

Most likely cause is that the insert in the seating die is not the correct profile for the shape of the bullet you’re using & that rather than contacting the bullet on the jacket below the tip, hence getting a uniform seating depth, it’s contacting on the tip. I’m not familiar with the PPU bullet but I’m guessing it’s a ‘long thin pointy thing’ rather than a typical ‘short stubby thing’ which would likely be an issue.

P.S. as others have said - ditch the lee seating die & get a decent one too. Some Lee stuff is great but most of it is cheap & made to a price - designed for ‘minute of deer’ at 100 yards not sub moa at 300 yards.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

A tip to using the comparator method before I bought my Hornady set was for me to use a spent de primed pistol cartridge case sitting on the ogive and measure from head of that to head of the loaaded round which gives a quite accurate result.

 

[Cyres]

Yes it's probably the shape of the insert. I use a .204 Lee seating die in preference to several other far more expensive seating dies. Far more consistent. Also bullet jump in .204 is huge so not worth worrying about a few thou on the COL.
D

 

[SpikeD]

Let's start with some basics, did you trim all of your cases to the same length? Did you anneal them? Magtech brass is ok but not in the same tier as Lapua/Norma/RWS, so some basic work means you'll start from a consistent repeatable basis. Case length and neck tension being good ones to control.

People criticize Lee dies but in my experience they are more than adequate for an average reloader. I have bought a variety of dies over the years and they all have good and bad points. There's another thread on here about that if you want to waste time chasing conflicting opinions.

The Lee seater is designed to seat a variety of bullet shapes so may not be as precise as others but if you want to use a variety of bullets then it's probably better than one which suits only one bullet profile and marks others.

The whole "chasing the lands" is a pipe dream for most stalkers, your priority is does it fit and feed reliably from the magazine?, If you're shooting a single shot F class rifle then that's a different story.
Develop a load that you can regularly obtain components for, that will feed and gives you accuracy that you're comfortable with. You can spend a lot of time money and effort trying to make a stalking rifle into a match rifle.

 

[nic531]

Let's start with some basics, did you trim all of your cases to the same length? Did you anneal them? Magtech brass is ok but not in the same tier as Lapua/Norma/RWS, so some basic work means you'll start from a consistent repeatable basis. Case length and neck tension being good ones to control.

People criticize Lee dies but in my experience they are more than adequate for an average reloader. I have bought a variety of dies over the years and they all have good and bad points. There's another thread on here about that if you want to waste time chasing conflicting opinions.

The Lee seater is designed to seat a variety of bullet shapes so may not be as precise as others but if you want to use a variety of bullets then it's probably better than one which suits only one bullet profile and marks others.

The whole "chasing the lands" is a pipe dream for most stalkers, your priority is does it fit and feed reliably from the magazine?, If you're shooting a single shot F class rifle then that's a different story.
Develop a load that you can regularly obtain components for, that will feed and gives you accuracy that you're comfortable with. You can spend a lot of time money and effort trying to make a stalking rifle into a match rifle.

I have to agree.... how far are you generally shooting? in my main permission it is woodland with a couple of rides..... most of the shot are sub 200m and the average being 100m. If I am match target shooting and hit an inch off I may get cheesed off.... with a deer it is still going to hit the heart/vitals.... we all like to think we are great shots and in the cold chill out of a range can probably hit a good group, but off sticks etc, not so sure.
1 MOA is 1 inch at 100 yards if my memory serves me right.... how large is a heart?

The first Help for Heroes shoot I went to at Bisley on the Field sports range... I was surprised at how many scored quite low on the deer target!


But Hey what do I know, on 223 I use ggg carts!

 

[Eddie P]

I have to agree.... how far are you generally shooting? in my main permission it is woodland with a couple of rides..... most of the shot are sub 200m and the average being 100m. If I am match target shooting and hit an inch off I may get cheesed off.... with a deer it is still going to hit the heart/vitals.... we all like to think we are great shots and in the cold chill out of a range can probably hit a good group, but off sticks etc, not so sure.
1 MOA is 1 inch at 100 yards if my memory serves me right.... how large is a heart?

The first Help for Heroes shoot I went to at Bisley on the Field sports range... I was surprised at how many scored quite low on the deer target!


But Hey what do I know, on 223 I use ggg carts!

I've set my dies for the perfect jump for my target loads, and use the same for my deer loads. Scenar is 0.3 moa, SST and VLR4 about half (maybe slightly more) which is good enough for me. I can't be doing with adjusting the seater between the 2 bullets.

 

[Pete6.5]

Shoot them and see how they group and if they group ok then forget about it.

 

[Utectok]

Lee wilson inline dies are the way to go

 

[MarinePMI]

I just started loading .223. I have previously only loaded 6.5 CM. I'm using Lee dies.

My first set of completed rounds vary in COAL between 57.43mm and 57.77mm. I'm measuring from head to bullet tip with good calipers. I'm aware that this is not ideal because bullet tips can vary so I measured a load of bullets to see if the variability was just this. But they varied by only 0.12mm (vs 0.34mm for the finished rounds). So it seems like the seating depth is inconsistent.

What am I doing wrong, do you think?

Bullets are PPU 75gr HPBT. Cases are once fired magtech.

There have been quite a few comments given and questions asked. I would suggest we set a couple things straight....

1. There is nothing wrong with Lee dies. They make fine ammunition when set up properly.

2. There is a very good possibility that you are doing nothing "wrong". Rather, the bullets you are using may not be as consistent as you would believe. Often times, some bullets have a "wandering ogive". Meaning, that there was some inconsistency in the application of the pointing die at the factory, when the bullets were being made. This results in the ogive (the curve, where the bullet comes to a point) being inconsistent. Since a seating die typically seats off the ogive (not the point) you can end up with varying lengths (not discounting the points of the bullets being slightly varying as well) when the ogive location is inconsistent in your batch of bullets. This is especially more of a problem for long for caliber bullets, of which the 75gr HPBT 223 bullet is getting into the territory of being.

Unless you're short stroking the press handle, the die will seat the bullet based on the length of the press stroke into the die, and where the seating cup meets the bullet (typically on the ogive somewhere). So likely, you're doing anything wrong.

My gut tells me the bullets are at fault. And even then, probably not going matter a whole lot unless you're chasing the lands with seating depth (which is not ideal IMHO). Just load them to SAAMI/CIP COAL spec for that bullet, and go shoot them. If they shoot like trash, then it's time to talk about potential adjustments in loading components and/or dimensions. Most likely they'll shoot just fine.

As a point of reference, I've used just about every type of seating and sizing die made. They all work fine for standard hunting ammunition, and even target ammunition, when set up and used properly.

 

[urban]

Many thanks for all the opinions.

Just to answer a couple of questions that were asked....

Are the primers seated correctly? Yes. I checked that. It had already occurred to me that OAL inconsistency might be due to measuring off a non-flush primer. Not the case.

Have I trimmed or annealed the brass? No. I measured a sample and it was all well short of needing to be trimmed so I didn't bother. I don't anneal. I have enough once fired brass that I expect to be shooting it for years before any needs to be annealed.

How do they shoot? I haven't tried them yet, They are loaded with varying charges - so expect/hope that some will shoot better than others. I'm doing load development.

(Implied question) "why are you using cheap components?" - this ammo is for civilian service rifle competitions. That's ~100 rounds per day of competition. I need a reasonably accurate round that works well up to 500m, but cost is a consideration. I figured that I'd see how Magtech brass and PPU bullets work. If they're OK then that's nice and cheap. If they are not then I'll try upgrading the bullets. If I'm still chasing accuracy after that then I might try different brass (does it really make much difference?).

 

[.25-06]

I might try different brass (does it really make much difference?).

It can make a big difference. I have found both magtech and ppu ammo to be absolutely dire. But if they chambered and went bang would hit an a4 sheet of paper.

 

[Bowland blades]

I just started loading .223. I have previously only loaded 6.5 CM. I'm using Lee dies.

My first set of completed rounds vary in COAL between 57.43mm and 57.77mm. I'm measuring from head to bullet tip with good calipers. I'm aware that this is not ideal because bullet tips can vary so I measured a load of bullets to see if the variability was just this. But they varied by only 0.12mm (vs 0.34mm for the finished rounds). So it seems like the seating depth is inconsistent.

What am I doing wrong, do you think?

Bullets are PPU 75gr HPBT. Cases are once fired magtech.

Measure a pack of these bullets the same way , likely they will be all over the place . We should measure off the bullet shoulders

 

[Foxyboy43]

“Have I trimmed or annealed the brass? No. I measured a sample and it was all well short of needing to be trimmed so I didn't bother”.
This is not your best idea ever. Over many years reloading various chamberings I long ago discovered that there can be significant variation in Case Length - even with brand new top-end brass. At best you will get inconsistent seating depth and depending on your discipline/distance inaccuracy and at worst a real problem should the case get so long that it has nowhere to go upon firing. This latter little surprise is inevitable as cases stretch upon each firing thus a “sampling” of lengths by the law of averages will inevitably miss an above spec. case (or more). You might notice this when you encounter difficult bolt closing or worse - opening.
In the spirit of helpfulness - always check your brass and trim to the specs for each - those nice powder manufacturers even tell what each should be as a fundamental part of their reloading data…

 

[Utectok]

My guess is up to 500m you won’t notice the difference? There is a lot of voodoo out there about reloading. My rule of thumb is good quality components and a good quality barrel and likely you will see good results. In your case there is a lot that might make the round inaccurate way before you get to the exact length issues. Having said that it may be just fine?