Hunting Solutions
Well-Known Member
Just phoned him and he's told me it was a cock up and the £88 was for a blood test and the food was fifteen quid.
Told him he has made me look a right tw @t on the SD!
Vets - are their bills too large?
- Thread starter billh
- Start date
Just phoned him and he's told me it was a cock up and the £88 was for a blood test and the food was fifteen quid.
Told him he has made me look a right tw @t on the SD!
unlacedgecko
Well-Known Member
The problem I have with your hypothetical scenario above, and the comparison to a electrician/plumber, is that in both circumstances an individual may well be capable of dealing with the issue themselves. Unfortunately, it is illegal to give any medical treatment to a companion animal if one is not a vet.
I had a dog torn up in a kennel fight approx 18 months ago. The Jack Russell in question had a 2 inch gash to the upper side of his neck (going through 3 layers of muscle) along with corresponding puntcure wounds on the other side of the neck. I was away from home at the time (and consequently away from my excellent vet). Sod's law it was the Sunday night of a bank holiday weekend.
I phoned around, and discovered a mainly farm animal practice who wanted only £100 for an out of hours consultation fee (the upper limit was nearly £300). When I arrived I saw a senior partner who specialised in eye surgery, so a man of vast experience and expertise. Predictably the first question out of his mouth was 'is the dog insured'? Working terriers in my kennels are not insured. After talking through various treatment options (one of which was muscle grafting repair and multiple nights in surgery, starting at £600) we settled on first aid. This involved flushing the wound with saline solution, stapling it with 4 staples and a course of antibiotics. Total cost £120. Under the circumstances, I thought this extremely reasonable. However, may main problem was that if it were legal, there is nothing this vet did which I did not do myself.
The dog made a full recovery, and required only removal of the staples.
The pet owner who views their animals as surrogate children, as well as the advent of pet insurance, is largely responsible for the vastly inflated prices we pay today.
I too question how it can be only £300 to perform complicated gastro surgery on a dairy cow, but almost 4 times that amount to perform a similar operation on a dog.
If anyone is interested, my current vets is one who is mainly an agricultural practice, with many working dogs on their books. I suggest anyone looking for value for money avoid like the plague any vet with lots of expensive machines and pets on the books.
Why is it legal for me as a stockman to purchase drugs (under supervision of a vet of course) and inject pigs, cows sheep, but not dogs?
I too question how it can be only £300 to perform complicated gastro surgery on a dairy cow, but almost 4 times that amount to perform a similar operation on a dog.
A mate of mine is a horse vet, he wont do pets as he says he cant get his hands up dogs and cats
yes the meds are more, but the op is probably easier on a cow.
A mate of mine is a horse vet, he wont do pets as he says he cant get his hands up dogs and cats
yes the meds are more, but the op is probably easier on a cow.
Bandit Country
Well-Known Member
97 quid....... The scenario you describe is almost exactly my experience with my cocker (see avatar, left) a few years ago. OK is was a Saturday, not Sunday, and the skin rip was caused by discarded pig netting the fencing b*****ds had tipped into the ditch, rather than taking it away. I'm lucky to have an outstanding practice, local to me and their response in this situation was all I could hope for. The work was excellent with no thickening at the wound site at all. The subsequent bill was a pleasant surprise as I expected it to be more. This particular dog was epileptic and on medication all her working life. When a large tumor developed on her liver at age 12 I had 'that conversation' with the head honcho who explained that he could undertake any number of diagnoses and interventions but....... and she was PTS, which was handled extremely well - and again at minimal cost.
If I had a single round and the choice of slotting a vet or a fencing contractor, guess who's going to get it.......?
My experience is only positive, I have used the same vet for around 18 years, the dogs have their booster and K cough every year, I do the rest myself, my own thoughts on animal husbandry, I believe, keeps them away from the vet, only serious injury takes them their, it is amazing what you can do yourself, Teramycin, TCP, heat, massage, swimming and TLC, The same goes for horses. I have the greatest respect for both vets I use, both countrymen and excellent what they do. Takes a long time to qualify as a vet.
Hammy
Hammy
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unlacedgecko
Well-Known Member
Be careful what you admit to on the internet. What you see as perfectly acceptable self help, a certain animal rights organisation may see as a prosecution opportunity...
I think it's maybe time one of the vets chipped in. My very simple argument is that good care costs money. I have well over £100,000 worth of drugs and equipment at the surgery. We are a small practice and employ 6 members of staff. That surgery needs heating, lights, rates, repairs, rent, equipment needs replacing and drugs go out of date. There are a stupid number of waste streams that are produced all in their own box, bag or container. Insured animals have driven some of the progress, and people are increasingly demanding. There are many conditions we can deal with now that 20 years ago would have had a dog put to sleep. In our practice we have a number of dogs that have been rather sick and ended up back at work. We are mainly large animal and I do think that our small animal fees are relatively low, they should maybe be higher.
What you have to remember is there is NO NHS for animals. What you are getting is a private health service. The veterinary education receives no funding (unlike a medical degree with NHS funding). Increasingly vets are studying for extra qualifications at the practice's expense. We are required by our professional body to undertake a minimum of 35 hours per year continued professional development (ie extra training). This is time spent away from practice and earning money. In the last three years I have done over 330 hours and spent thousands of pounds on my education, my wife's and our assistants.
With a small animal anaesthetic that will be monitored by trained member of staff, the will be sophisticated monitoring equipment looking at heart rate and rhythm (ECG), blood carbon dioxide concentrations (capnograph), blood oxygen saturation and the blood pressure. The animal will usually get fluids. X-rays (radiography), ultrasound, blood tests all can be done in house. The standard of veterinary treatment is very high, but this comes with costs. No vet has magic powers and can diagnose (appropriately) without diagnostic tests. Beware the old vet who can tell everything by a quick look and the laying on of hands!
What is provided is a high standard of professional care, rapid access to tests and definitive treatment. See how long it takes you to get an x-ray or an operation on the NHS......
Insurance has driven what vets can offer and it does take away the barrier of money. This is why we ask if insured. With an insured animal it gets the best care irrespective of cost. When the owner is paying we are frequently required to cut corners and offer sub-optimal service. This may not be in the animal's best interests. Owners are more demanding and more aware of what tests and treatments are available.
The reference to large and small animal surgery costs is simple. In our practice it will cost maybe 2-2.5X the cost for a bitch caesarian compared to a cow caesarian. Why? Both kits costs the same to sterilise and buy. The cow uses more drugs and suture materials. The cow job is done on the farm - all the mess is left for the farmer. I would usually have a farmer 'scrub in' and hold the womb (uterus) - I don't have him to pay. A bitch caesarian OOH means an extra 1 or 2 members of staff to be called in, and paid. A caesarian is messy, leaving that on the farm is great - at the surgery I have blood everywhere and a heap of towels to wash. I have all the extra drapes and fluids to provide for the dog. The dog occupies a kennel for some time, that is to clean. The dog is on my anaesthetic machine breathing oxygen and anaesthetic agents - the cow gets a bottle or two of £5 local anaesthetic. The extra use of facilities, staff, drugs, consumables would probably leave me with as much 'profit' from the cow as the dog, despite the dog costing more than twice as much!
Does that make any sense?
A dog is a privilege, not a right. If you are going to have a dog you should have the means to pay for its treatment when sick or pay for insurance. I really lack sympathy for people who have perfectly 'fixable' dogs but are unable to pay for the treatment because they have not taken into account the costs that may be incurred. I'd like it to be the same as cars - if you want a dog you legally have to get in microchipped, vaccinated, treated for parasites and insured.
You all think the vaccine is some con or conspiracy. The sheer number of animals with awful dental disease, masses, arthritis etc that we see EVERYDAY that have been missed by the owner. The sheer numer of animals that are suffering through benign neglect sickens me. The value of the 'booster' is more placed on the decent clinical examination rather than the jab.
Grumble over.
What you have to remember is there is NO NHS for animals. What you are getting is a private health service. The veterinary education receives no funding (unlike a medical degree with NHS funding). Increasingly vets are studying for extra qualifications at the practice's expense. We are required by our professional body to undertake a minimum of 35 hours per year continued professional development (ie extra training). This is time spent away from practice and earning money. In the last three years I have done over 330 hours and spent thousands of pounds on my education, my wife's and our assistants.
With a small animal anaesthetic that will be monitored by trained member of staff, the will be sophisticated monitoring equipment looking at heart rate and rhythm (ECG), blood carbon dioxide concentrations (capnograph), blood oxygen saturation and the blood pressure. The animal will usually get fluids. X-rays (radiography), ultrasound, blood tests all can be done in house. The standard of veterinary treatment is very high, but this comes with costs. No vet has magic powers and can diagnose (appropriately) without diagnostic tests. Beware the old vet who can tell everything by a quick look and the laying on of hands!
What is provided is a high standard of professional care, rapid access to tests and definitive treatment. See how long it takes you to get an x-ray or an operation on the NHS......
Insurance has driven what vets can offer and it does take away the barrier of money. This is why we ask if insured. With an insured animal it gets the best care irrespective of cost. When the owner is paying we are frequently required to cut corners and offer sub-optimal service. This may not be in the animal's best interests. Owners are more demanding and more aware of what tests and treatments are available.
The reference to large and small animal surgery costs is simple. In our practice it will cost maybe 2-2.5X the cost for a bitch caesarian compared to a cow caesarian. Why? Both kits costs the same to sterilise and buy. The cow uses more drugs and suture materials. The cow job is done on the farm - all the mess is left for the farmer. I would usually have a farmer 'scrub in' and hold the womb (uterus) - I don't have him to pay. A bitch caesarian OOH means an extra 1 or 2 members of staff to be called in, and paid. A caesarian is messy, leaving that on the farm is great - at the surgery I have blood everywhere and a heap of towels to wash. I have all the extra drapes and fluids to provide for the dog. The dog occupies a kennel for some time, that is to clean. The dog is on my anaesthetic machine breathing oxygen and anaesthetic agents - the cow gets a bottle or two of £5 local anaesthetic. The extra use of facilities, staff, drugs, consumables would probably leave me with as much 'profit' from the cow as the dog, despite the dog costing more than twice as much!
Does that make any sense?
A dog is a privilege, not a right. If you are going to have a dog you should have the means to pay for its treatment when sick or pay for insurance. I really lack sympathy for people who have perfectly 'fixable' dogs but are unable to pay for the treatment because they have not taken into account the costs that may be incurred. I'd like it to be the same as cars - if you want a dog you legally have to get in microchipped, vaccinated, treated for parasites and insured.
You all think the vaccine is some con or conspiracy. The sheer number of animals with awful dental disease, masses, arthritis etc that we see EVERYDAY that have been missed by the owner. The sheer numer of animals that are suffering through benign neglect sickens me. The value of the 'booster' is more placed on the decent clinical examination rather than the jab.
Grumble over.
As Apache has said, the costs associated with running a practice are high and they need to be recovered. I'll be honest that there are some occasions when I look at a bill and think, ouch, that's high. Then we look at what has been done and used and it just simply adds up. I'll use my judgement and experience if I think a couple of staples will deal with a wound rather than an anaesthetic and a full exploration or I'll maybe do one or two tests compared to a full profile if money is an issue - as will most vets. I won't however, do a job on the cheap.
Wille-Gunn has summed this up nicely: "Doesn't matter what profession you're talking about; those who look from the outside and don't understand it, or can't do it, will always complain about it being easy or a rip-off. The vets we use for our four dogs are fantastic. I could never do their job, and what I am paying for is their expertise."
Wille-Gunn has summed this up nicely: "Doesn't matter what profession you're talking about; those who look from the outside and don't understand it, or can't do it, will always complain about it being easy or a rip-off. The vets we use for our four dogs are fantastic. I could never do their job, and what I am paying for is their expertise."
As Apache says it costs to run a business however such costs are not exclusive to vets. all of us who run a small business are subject to these costs, we all have to train, our staff carry expensive stock, buy expensive equipment, heat, light, b/rates and we all have to attend courses to keep up to speed " professional development " I could go on but basically what you have said applies to all small enterprises -demanding clients, immediate access, high standard of professional care /work.
The comparison (hcm1 )between vets plumbers and electricians does not hold water these are mainly sole traders not employing 6 staff plus partners
The real difference is profit margin most small buisineses operate on a slim margin selling their labour/skill they make very little mark up on materials as most suppliers don't offer much of a discount to the trade any more and if they do its on volume (what's the first thing you do when the plumber tells you a new boiler is needed-straight on the internet to check how much you can get it for) try checking the price and buying the drugs the vets told you he will be using -before the need for a prescription I had an account with a firm called vetafarm we had numerous birds of prey, small Australian parakeets, fowl, dogs, animals etc most birds of prey, parakeets and pigeons are prone to a protozoan infection which we would treat as required with a product supplied by the above company. With the introduction of prescription only supply we had to use the local vet I duly went along to obtain a prescription with a bird- for the consultation- to confirm what I already knew it went like this : -
vet we normally supply emtryl for this condition
I say don't like it quite toxic over dose and it has serious side effects
vet what is it you normally use?
Ronidasol
let me have a look ah yes here it is where do you normally obtain it
vetafarm
yes we have an account with them I can order it in for you (not keen to let me have the prescription)
ok
few days later your medication is in if you would like to call in and pick it up the cost will be £40.00 per tub plus postage. This is for the very same product from the same suppliers that we were paying £8.00 plus postage I have no problem with a business adding their mark up but 500 %!!! I bet the plumber would like to make that mark up on the boiler? no doubt we will be told that this is not the normal mark up, perhaps it isn't but I tried other local vets for products that we used and the mark up although not quite as high was still eye watering.
The problem as I see it is one of a monopoly of supply with as far as the shooting community is concerned a client base who would spend more on their dogs health than they would on their own . Perhaps Tescos could add veterinary services to their ever expanding empire, that would perhaps introduce a little competition ?
knowitall
no doubt we will have the sycophantic posts or those who will be offended-or claim that you are jealous and just don't understand. I understand ok.
Wingy
Well-Known Member
Apache - spot on - And I couldn't agree more with the way you summed up owning a dog should be like owning a car, I personally think it would be a good idea to make it a legal requirement to purchase microchip, insurance, worm, flea & vaccinations.
However would this mean that at all this expense I now demand £XX amount to work my dog in the beating line or £XXX amount to pick up?
Many shoots are already struggling with costs.
If properly enforced it would deal with all the irresponsible dog owners out there but greatly reduce the actual number of dogs overall as people would not or could not afford the costs, this would mean a lot less work for the vets meaning one or two outcomes
1, vets seriously increase costs to maintain present levels of care having a knock on effect of higher insurance costs and so on
2, vets have to be more competitive to attract business so cheaper bills but level of care, update of equipment etc suffers.
Food for thought and no this is not a dig at the vets I fully respect the work you do
Owner of 2 microchipped, insured, vaccinated regular worm, flea, tick treated dogs
Wingy
However would this mean that at all this expense I now demand £XX amount to work my dog in the beating line or £XXX amount to pick up?
Many shoots are already struggling with costs.
If properly enforced it would deal with all the irresponsible dog owners out there but greatly reduce the actual number of dogs overall as people would not or could not afford the costs, this would mean a lot less work for the vets meaning one or two outcomes
1, vets seriously increase costs to maintain present levels of care having a knock on effect of higher insurance costs and so on
2, vets have to be more competitive to attract business so cheaper bills but level of care, update of equipment etc suffers.
Food for thought and no this is not a dig at the vets I fully respect the work you do
Owner of 2 microchipped, insured, vaccinated regular worm, flea, tick treated dogs
Wingy
My friend had a cat which had a kidney/ bladder problem ( can't remember which ), this prevented the cat from passing urine properly. He took the cat to the vet and it transpired that it needed an operation and was to be kept at the vets for a day or two after the operation. Unfortunately he had no pet insurance and was told that the treatment would cost £500! He couldn't really afford the £500 but felt he had little option other than to go ahead.
On collecting the cat a couple of days later, he was presented with a bill by the receptionist for nearly £1000!! He was staggered at this and asked how on earth a £500 "quote" had turned in to £1000.. He didn't get a convincing explanation and the vet was "unavailable" to justify the extra cost. He went on to explain that he was a mechanic and that if he quoted £500 to carry out work on a car and suddenly presented a bill for £1000 to the customer without a damn good reason, he would be very unlikely to get paid and could possibly expect a visit from trading standards.
After disappearing into another room for a few minutes the receptionist returned to say that since he didn't have insurance the practice could lower the bill to £700!..... The vet by the way was still unavailable to discuss the bill or justify the extra cost...... He paid the bill and left after accusing the practice of blatantly inflating their prices without being able to justify or give any valid reason.
He believed that the bill had been artificially inflated as the practice had mistakenly believed he had pet insurance, even though he had previously informed them he had none.
On collecting the cat a couple of days later, he was presented with a bill by the receptionist for nearly £1000!! He was staggered at this and asked how on earth a £500 "quote" had turned in to £1000.. He didn't get a convincing explanation and the vet was "unavailable" to justify the extra cost. He went on to explain that he was a mechanic and that if he quoted £500 to carry out work on a car and suddenly presented a bill for £1000 to the customer without a damn good reason, he would be very unlikely to get paid and could possibly expect a visit from trading standards.
After disappearing into another room for a few minutes the receptionist returned to say that since he didn't have insurance the practice could lower the bill to £700!..... The vet by the way was still unavailable to discuss the bill or justify the extra cost...... He paid the bill and left after accusing the practice of blatantly inflating their prices without being able to justify or give any valid reason.
He believed that the bill had been artificially inflated as the practice had mistakenly believed he had pet insurance, even though he had previously informed them he had none.
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Yes...... Without insurance the vets would be unlikely to get away with charging such massively inflated prices!
After all, emotional blackmail can only bump the bill up so much!
My springer went in to have lump removed from his underside about 18 months ago. I met the vet in the morning, we looked at the lump together. Dog left with vet...Went to pick the old boy up after work, paid the £600 bill. Checked him when he got home and the wrong lump had been removed!!!!
Eventually, got the money back after complaint, but poor dog had to go through the whole thing again. In the meantime the cancerous lump had got bigger.
One of my other dogs got scratched by a cat close to her eye (circa 2012) she then had 12 months of skin problems. Endless trips back to vets and about £1250 spent. It turned out to be a common problem with the breed that was resolved with change in diet ( more zinc ) something, in my view a vet should have known on the second visit once the scratch had healed.
I changed vets...
Eventually, got the money back after complaint, but poor dog had to go through the whole thing again. In the meantime the cancerous lump had got bigger.
One of my other dogs got scratched by a cat close to her eye (circa 2012) she then had 12 months of skin problems. Endless trips back to vets and about £1250 spent. It turned out to be a common problem with the breed that was resolved with change in diet ( more zinc ) something, in my view a vet should have known on the second visit once the scratch had healed.
I changed vets...
Good care costs money. It really is as simple as that.
All the vets I know would never give a quote only an estimate. We would always try to contact the client if the bill was going to go significantly over estimate, but sometimes that is not possible. Our consent form makes it clear that it's only an estimate and fees may well go over the suggested amount.
Skin problems can be the most frustrating cases to deal with, things take a long time to change and the costs can mount up. You can't just look at a cat and figure out its short of zinc............
I don't think anyone would dispute that. The arguments seem to be about what contsitutes 'good care', and about how much money it should cost.
It seems to me that pet insurance providers are working the same magic on vets as private health insurers have done on medical practitioners.
In any case, insurance or no the vet's bill still gets paid by the owner. It seems to me that if you buy insurance, you're paying the insurers' salaries as well as the vet who, from the anecdotes here at least, might well be charging/treating differently in the case of insured animals.
The situtation is tough indeed for those who dont have enough rhino lying about to take a bill for a couple of grand on the chin.
Clinically, could you not look at a dog (for dog it was, not cat) with a skin problem of that sort and take a punt on a bit of a zinc supplement? Not high-tech, not expensive and I imagine not clinically risky.
Highlander
Well-Known Member
Andy - I hope your dog makes a full recovery.
Paul - have you any idea the costs of MRI scans, X-rays under anaesthetic, orthopaedic surgeries? - I am not sure you do, if you can speak to some of the private hospitals. This will give you an indicator as to the costs involved particularly when you take into account the difference in foot/paw fall through a practice vs hospital.
Paul - cat scenario - seems like there was potential communication issues. But then you are recounting a story that you are potentially not fully aware of all the facts or remember them. As Apache has already said, quotes are not usually given, instead estimates are given because it is not always possible to predict the exact requirements of a clinical situation. Unfortunately some clients do not appreciate / understand the difference, but ideally the vet should keep in contact with the owner over mounting costs.
"Blocked" cats can be very expensive to treat, with potentially highly complex/delicate surgery required, and frankly a £500 difference would be very easy to account for, in this type of situation.
Granted I would expect the vet to come and speak to, or arrange a conversation with the client, to go through their concerns - so that aspect was potentially not handled well.
Pointer - Lumpectomy very unfortunate, and if the same vet did the surgery as admitted him, absolutely no excuse. Unfortunately if cases, are handed over to an operating vet, via possibly a short stop in kennels, and then another person taking him through to theatre, there is the possibility of confusion / mistakes. I would hope that the 2nd op was done free gratis. I hope he also made a full recovery, and goes on to enjoy many more days out in the field.
Zinc dermatosis is not actually all that common, particularly compared to the myriad of other skin conditions. Springers are not actually one of the classic breeds for this condition.
As a general point of interest I had a typical approach from Plimsoll the other day (they are a company that basically specialises in business analysis, company purchases etc), and interestingly they were quoting the national average for veterinary business' profit margin being 2%.
Which possibly just goes to show that good quality animal / client care must be expensive to provide, if the veterinary profession are charging "inflated prices".
Anyway coming to the end of a weekend on duty, just Monday to Friday to do now, and I must finish my tax return, - have to include the running costs of my Aston Martin!
I wonder if they do a stretched version? - I could get the calving jack in the boot then, instead of on the roof.
Regards,
HL
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Not really no. It's a very uncommon condition and too much zinc is toxic!
Cutting corners in diagnostics can be a very costly way of investigating a problem and the condition can take a lot longer to resolve if we throw a handful of 'best guess' treatments at the animal first. Then we'll get you accusing vets of being useless and having no idea what is wrong with your dog..........
I can't speak for all vets (and one was recently struck off for claiming insurance on animals that didn't exist) but we would never charge an insured animal more. What we may do is offer the best tests and care for the animal that the uninsured client couldn't afford leading to a bigger bill, but better care. Veterinary surgeons survive on their honesty - any proven act of dishonesty is treated most severely by the RCVS - vets have been struck off for backdating vaccination certificates. It sounds trivial, but if you cannot take a vets word as gospel then any vet certificate suddenly becomes invalid.
Look at what PRIVATE healthcare costs, and draw comparisons.
$55,000 for you appendix out.....
$55,000 bill for appendicitis operation posted on Reddit goes viral | Mail Online
I think the pricing structure might have something to do with this, to a farmer an animal has only so much (financial) worth... Beyond a certain expenditure it it's not financially viable to pay out substantially more than the animal is worth....... It is more financially viable to put the animal down - which would result in less money for the vet! So prices are more likely to reflect this.
Conversely a family pet (such as a dog) is usually a much loved addition to the family, people are caught up in what really amounts to emotional blackmail over generally over inflated vet charges and some massively so! Add to this that in our days, people tend to take out pet insurance. This in itself gives another opportunity to ramp up the charges even further and it's not too difficult to see why operations or treatment on pets cost can cost so much.
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Highlander
Well-Known Member
finished my tax return!
It is unfortunate for the individual faced with costs of veterinary care for their much loved companion, but it is a sad fact that surgical and medical expertise / facilities / and drugs come at a cost, which when borne by the individual owner can seem high.
But as has been pointed out by many on this forum you are dealing with a private health service, that is small in size and through put when compared to the equivalent private health hospitals. It would be interesting to see what the provision of an NHS costs the average man in the street per year, I would not be surprised if it was into 4 figures.
Good evening or should that be morning all.
HL
It is unfortunate for the individual faced with costs of veterinary care for their much loved companion, but it is a sad fact that surgical and medical expertise / facilities / and drugs come at a cost, which when borne by the individual owner can seem high.
But as has been pointed out by many on this forum you are dealing with a private health service, that is small in size and through put when compared to the equivalent private health hospitals. It would be interesting to see what the provision of an NHS costs the average man in the street per year, I would not be surprised if it was into 4 figures.
Good evening or should that be morning all.
HL
csl
Administrator
This. Except, unlike NHS or otherwise, you have consultants/equivalents giving free advice on this site for no other reason than good faith and camaraderie!
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