Weird rifling issues on a Savage axis precision

[Zetter]

Hi All

I just wondered if anyone had come across a similar issue and if there is any way to resolve it or if I am looking at a new barrel if I cant get any joy via the importer/ my RFD as I have had the rifle just under two years.

Back in 2020 I bought a Savage axis precision in .270. Due to covid and ranges being shut etc I really only had chance to get it zeroed and do a bit of group work with it. The groups were ok but not stellar. I tried the usual mod off different scope etc and worked up a load with different bullets but nothing really tightened up the groups which were basically 1" to 1.5" with most stuff I tried. I mean its minute of Deer and Boar but I would be expecting sub MOA all day long.
Also I noticed the barrel was a royal pain to clean even though I had shot it in when I first got it you can go at the barrel with KG1 and brushes/ patches for what seemed like forever and still get dirt on the patches at the end. When you contrast this with my Sassen Barrel .243 which goes from dirty to spotless in about 4 patches.

I have not seen able to get much range time over the past year due to work and Covid so I took the chance to head up and see Mike at Carlton Moor to get him to have a look and borescope the rifle for me to see if he could pick up any obvious issues.
What we saw was a bit of a shocker to say the least all the way down the rifling is what Mike describes as chattering i.e. the Lands are not smooth but have horizontal ridging all the way down I would guess from issues when the button was pulled through to rifle the barrel.

As a starter Mike scrubbed it to within an inch of its like with KG2 bore polish that bought an ungodly amount more crap out of the barrel and this after a few fouling shots tightened up the groups a fair bit but when we ran out of time and I headed home to clean the rifle I still had the same issue i.e. not clean patches after a load of work.

My first port of call as my RFD isnt massively happy will be to get him to borescope it to confirm and have words with the importer Edgar Brothers but failing that is there anything that can be done or do I live with it as its minute of deer even when dirty and save for a rebarrel next year

 

[long_range_rob]

It sounds like a rough finished mass produced barrel to me. Perhaps try some JB bore paste and use that to gently lap it in?

 

[andyk]

Did the rifle come with any accuracy guarantee?

I fear that the barrel, while not a “good” one doesn’t seem bad enough from your description to warrant you claiming a breach of the Consumer Rights Act or similar. It’s a hunting rifle and is accurate enough to hit quarry at usual ranges.

That changes if they promised you it could manage a level of accuracy it clearly cannot.

One other thought is simply to fire it more. A lot of people find barrels improve in accuracy with a few hundred rounds as the bullets (I presume) polish the internals a little.

 

[Smellydog]

I had a remington 243 barrel like that. It turned game bullets into super explosive varmint bullets.
It's buyer beware thing I'm afraid

 

[Fair Hill]

I'd wait in hope the that Edgar Brothers would sort the issue but if they don't I'd certainly be contacting Savage directly and explaining the issue in detail in the hope they would acknowledge it was a genuine quality control issue on their behalf and they will rectify it as a gesture of good faith.

Best of luck.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I’m afraid this is the type of thing that happens with todays budget rifles. The likes of savage, howa, ruger ect. Can all be susceptible to issues like this. I’m afraid that bore polishing barrels like this can only do so much good, you can get the surface to a mirror polish but underneath there are still cracks.

 

[Zetter]

Cheers All

I think there is nothing to lose by going back to EB on it. If not it may be a case of getting it to good enough and doing a re barrel when I have some funds. The bonus is its not shotgunning all over the shop its not really to my standards as far as what I would expect

 

[Steff]

Without having seen your barrel it sounds very much like what button pulled standard barrels look like. Remingtons are famous for it. But this doesn‘t necessarily mean that they are bad shooters.

 

[Zetter]

Without having seen your barrel it sounds very much like what button pulled standard barrels look like. Remingtons are famous for it. But this doesn‘t necessarily mean that they are bad shooters.

I was only going on what Mike from Carlton said who has seen a lot of barrels with the comment I have never seen one like this before its shocking.

 

[kripton]

Hi All

I just wondered if anyone had come across a similar issue and if there is any way to resolve it or if I am looking at a new barrel if I cant get any joy via the importer/ my RFD as I have had the rifle just under two years.

Back in 2020 I bought a Savage axis precision in .270. Due to covid and ranges being shut etc I really only had chance to get it zeroed and do a bit of group work with it. The groups were ok but not stellar. I tried the usual mod off different scope etc and worked up a load with different bullets but nothing really tightened up the groups which were basically 1" to 1.5" with most stuff I tried. I mean its minute of Deer and Boar but I would be expecting sub MOA all day long.
Also I noticed the barrel was a royal pain to clean even though I had shot it in when I first got it you can go at the barrel with KG1 and brushes/ patches for what seemed like forever and still get dirt on the patches at the end. When you contrast this with my Sassen Barrel .243 which goes from dirty to spotless in about 4 patches.

I have not seen able to get much range time over the past year due to work and Covid so I took the chance to head up and see Mike at Carlton Moor to get him to have a look and borescope the rifle for me to see if he could pick up any obvious issues.
What we saw was a bit of a shocker to say the least all the way down the rifling is what Mike describes as chattering i.e. the Lands are not smooth but have horizontal ridging all the way down I would guess from issues when the button was pulled through to rifle the barrel.

As a starter Mike scrubbed it to within an inch of its like with KG2 bore polish that bought an ungodly amount more crap out of the barrel and this after a few fouling shots tightened up the groups a fair bit but when we ran out of time and I headed home to clean the rifle I still had the same issue i.e. not clean patches after a load of work.

My first port of call as my RFD isnt massively happy will be to get him to borescope it to confirm and have words with the importer Edgar Brothers but failing that is there anything that can be done or do I live with it as its minute of deer even when dirty and save for a rebarrel next year

I had exactly the same with a stainless Remi 700 - the bore looked like an armadillo! Same thing with the first replacement barrel but cured with the second replacement (both under warranty) - diagnosis of the cause was the same as for yours. I know it's an extreme reaction but I will now only buy rifles with cut or hammer forged rifling. I have to give Skipton Gunroom full marks with the way they stood by the warranty, no "wriggling" and dealt promptly. I have seen other new Remi barrels in the shops with similar problems.

 

[kenbro]

Without having seen your barrel it sounds very much like what button pulled standard barrels look like. Remingtons are famous for it. But this doesn‘t necessarily mean that they are bad shooters.

Savage rifles (Not expensive) are usually good shooters straight out the box.
Ken.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Savage rifles (Not expensive) are usually good shooters straight out the box.
Ken.

Usually, but it doesn’t mean they have good barrels. A rough barrel often shoots well to start with but can be shot out quickly. As with many budget makes it’s a lucky dip.

 

[alberta boy]

I've seen tool chatter in a number of barrels , mostly in the last 10 years or so . It's usually in the lower priced rifles , but surprisingly , in some of the higher end ones as well . A sign of the times I'm afraid . I've had good luck with Savage bolt guns like the model 10/110's , but the Axis models do not have a good reputation in these parts . I've avoided them because of the comments of those who have bought them . Sorry to hear it . I'd definitely take it back and see if you can get it sorted out .

AB

 

[Laurie]

lso I noticed the barrel was a royal pain to clean even though I had shot it in when I first got it you can go at the barrel with KG1 and brushes/ patches for what seemed like forever and still get dirt on the patches at the end. When you contrast this with my Sassen Barrel .243 which goes from dirty to spotless in about 4 patches.

There is no comparison between the internal finish on Sassen and factory Savage barrels even between Savage's top of the line stainless heavy versions on the Model 12 Precision series of rifles. After all, having a Sassen provided and put on by a gunsmith costs considerably more than the cost of the entire Axis rifle.

Savage rifles (Not expensive) are usually good shooters straight out the box.
Ken.

Traditionally, it has been the other way round in Savages at least with their better models. Because of the relatively fast and crude boring methods to create the original bore (lands) diameter hole, the lands have lateral toolmarks from end to end - the bullet's travel is akin to driving across a ploughed field at 90-degrees to the ridges. As a result they take a great deal of running-in and precision often improves remarkably at around the 200-250 round mark in lower power chamberings.

You can see the marks quite plainly on the video here:

You are being redirected...

 

[alberta boy]

I had exactly the same with a stainless Remi 700 - the bore looked like an armadillo! Same thing with the first replacement barrel but cured with the second replacement (both under warranty) - diagnosis of the cause was the same as for yours. I know it's an extreme reaction but I will now only buy rifles with cut or hammer forged rifling. I have to give Skipton Gunroom full marks with the way they stood by the warranty, no "wriggling" and dealt promptly. I have seen other new Remi barrels in the shops with similar problems.

I've seen a number of Remingtons with tool marks . They were all from fairly recent production models just before they went out of business . The worst I've seen was a Winchester Model 70 made by USRAC just before they folded . It was sent to a friend of mine who owns a local gunshop . The chambering escapes me , but it didn't have any rifling , not a mark , a smooth bore. He actually got stuck with it because USRAC went out of business shortly after he received it . When I pointed out it was actually rare and valuable , being the only Model 70 shotgun in the world , he swore at me and called me foul names lol . Some people are so negative .

AB

 

[Lancaster]

I am struggling to actually type this but, if EB don't replace it, this may be a case where fire lapping could be an option.......

 

[Heym SR20]

The Savage Axis Precision retails at $899 in Cabelas. So its probably made for well under $500 so there won’t be much more than $100 in the barrel. It’s mass produced with no time spent on finishing.

If you are getting 1” groups that is 1 MOA which will be within manufacture claims.

A Sassen barrel is totally different. It probably costs best part £1,000 if not more. They are precision made by cut rifling and the hand lapped to give a mirror like bore. No wonder they clean easily and shoot well.

With a factory rifle you may get lucky and get a barrel from the beginning of a production run with a new barrel. Or you may get one from the end.

Whether the retailer and importer will change it for you is another matter. It may be that after a breaking in period everything smooths out and it shoots better. Or it may not. Is 1 to 1 1/2” beyond limits of acceptabilty - well thats for retailer and importer to agree to. It may be that when they try it shoots much better with a different ammo. Or it may just be quicker and easier for them to swap out the barrel. I think Savages are easy to change barrels on - undo locking ring and unscrew the barrel.

The embuggerance is if serial number is on barrel, in which case you will need a 1-4-1 variation.

 

[Lancaster]

40-50 years ago a CF rifle that consistently shot 1" groups was good rifle, now everyone expects 1/2" groups out of the box.

 

[Zetter]

Thank you for all the replys I will keep you posted on how I get on.
Just as a note this has had about 150 rounds though it with scope swaps and zeroing (initial playing) since I have had it. Accuracy tbh has got worse after it has run in a bit not better, with groups opening from sub MOA to MOA +. Although to be fair after we went at it with KG2 bore polish for about 20 mins the groups did tighten up. It could be it likes a really clean barrel but currently the only way to achive that appears to be bore polish which is a bit of a faff.
As has been pointed out by Lancaster and a few others it is give or take an MOA rifle so good enough for what I bought it for I have possibly been spoiled with my sako 75 that despite being 20 years old when I got it and not looked after by the previous owner was a tack driver and after a rebarrel with a sassen barrel is still a tack driver (but much nicer looking and will definitely outlive me)

 

[Heym SR20]

Heres what I would do if EB etc don’t want to anything. And given 150 rounds through it and 2 years since you purchased they may not.

The chartering marks will have sharp edges. I would do a proper barrel break in again. Fire one round, clean thoroughly, fire another and clean again. Do this perhaps ten times. Use up those boxes of ammo you don’t like.

By cleaning between shoots you are exposing the sharp edges again, allowing the next bullet to knock the edge off a bit more. If you just shoot lots of bullets consecutively then the chatters fill up with copper and you don’t break the barrel in.

What you want to achieve is consistency so that each bullet gets the same friction as the last one.

You probably don’t need to do a break in all in one go, especially given cost of bullets. If it shoots to minute of deer, just make a point of really giving it a good clean after every outing.

Once you have done this you may well find that working up a load specific for the rifle will tighten up the group further.

One other thing to look for, is does it shoot tight groups from a cold clean barrel, and do they open up as the barrel gets warm? If so it’s possible the barrel is not perfectly concentric, or mated to the action, or action lugs not perfect etc.

The difference between a cheap rifle / shotgun and an expensive one is not so much the underlying design and base manufacture, it’s the labour taken to ensure perfect fit, smoothness etc.

With your Sako with a Sassen barrel, you will have a few thousand pounds in that rifle. I would expect whoever rebarreled probably trued up the action so that all the lugs and interface between the barrel are all perfectly square.

The Sassen barrel would be originally bored tight and then lapped out to perfect size. Lapping involves a long lapping rod in the barrel onto which you cast soft lead. This gives a perfect imprint of the barrel. You coat with oil and emery powder and draw the lap back and forth a few times. Wash out the barrel and recast the lap. I have Clyde Bakers Modern Gunsmithing with full instructions - he reckons it takes from two to ten hours to get a good polish.

And I would expect the gunsmith to have cut a thread that perfectly fits the receiver’s. If you take a cheap screfix nut and bolt, you will find that that nut has some slack on the threads. And when its fully tightened not all the thread surfaces will be mated. Apply heat and things will move. Whereas a perfectly fitting thread, all surfaces will be mated, so any expansion due to heat won’t move things.

And with these days of modern machine tooling, a lot depends on quality of set up and age of the tools. I think with many of the American manufacturers is that they are still using original tooling and its now gone through several hands etc. This is not an issue per se, provided the parts are fitted together well. But these companies have all gone through multiple bankruptcies with little CAPEX expenditure.

Whereas the likes of Sako, Tikka have invested heavily in modern tooling so that the individual parts are now manufactured to very close tolerances which need minimal labour at final stages of fitting and assembly. Take a Blaser - you can take any barrel, reciever and bolt and they will fit and work well with no had fitting. But that’s what you pay for.

I have three bolt action rifles. A rem 700 Heavy Barrel 223 SPS - which is cheap. I spent a few hours smoothing up the bolt race, lapping the lugs, and then restocked it. It shoots very well even when hot. I am probably lucky to have got a good one.

A Heym SR20 in 243 which was a good 1990’s factory rifle. It’s pretty light barreled. It shoots tight when cold but warms up quickly. Its a good stalking rifle. But it’s also fussy on ammo. I expect I will rebarrel this rifle at some point.

And a 1970’s built Rigby 7x57 with a mid weight barrel. This was put together very well and you can feel the fit. And it shows in the shooting - its very consistent, whether hot or cold, and not fussy about ammo either. And its also shot a lot of ammo over the years.