What are the benefits of having DSC 2 ?

[Pine Marten]

and I did forget the Harkila thong

Do not make light of my Magic Hunting Pants. You're messing with powers beyond your understanding.

 

[TikkaFan]

Not according to your link, which claims that "10 to 15 rabbits eat as much grass as a sheep".

Mind you, according to Countryfile only six rabbits are needed to eat as much as a sheep: The truth about rabbit | Countryfile.com

Whereas this pest controller says it's seven: Damage caused by rabbits and the reasons for effective rabbit control

Here it's seven to ten: http://www.animalcontrol.com.au/rabbit.htm

But here it's ten: http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/rabbits/page-2

and here it's ten: http://www.cornishhedges.co.uk/PDF/rabbits.pdf

But then here it was "nine rabbits eating as much as two sheep": http://www.livingarchive.org.uk/includes/external/nvq/tracey/animals_rabbit.html

This "guide to game" reckons one rabbit eats as much as a sheep, and a hare can eat three times as much: http://www.lovefood.com/journal/features/13373/guide-to-game-rabbit-and-hare

So, is it one, six, seven, ten, or fifteen? The truth is that I doubt anyone really knows, so it's not actually a fact at all

Its not hard to calculate ...if you have time , calculate what one standard oryctolagus cuniculus eats through scientific surveys , same with a sheep ( a standard one ) job done , I`m sure you could find it in a peer reviewed journal...if you are that bothered

 

[Monkey Spanker]

You should go out at night with Ti , Ive watched them grazing for hours grazing on grass and winter/spring wheat , hares Im not sure about but its a fact that 10 rabbits will eat as much as a sheep ,Rabbit

"The roe deer is primarily crepuscular, very quick and graceful, and lives in woods, although it may venture into grasslands and sparse forests. They feed mainly on grass, leaves, berries, and young shoots. They particularly like very young, tender grass with a high moisture content, i.e., grass that has received rain the day before. Roe deer will not generally venture into a field that has had or has livestock (sheep, cattle) in it because the livestock make the grass unclean. A pioneer species commonly associated with biotic communities at an early stage of succession, during the Neolithic period in Europe, the roe deer was abundant, taking advantage of areas of forest or woodland cleared by Neolithic farmers"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_deer

Whilst Roe do not generally graze pasture land that farm livestock live on out of choice they do if they don't have a choice.

I don't believe Roe feed mainly on grass! Sure they graze on wheat and barley fields but only grass in an emergency.
There is also an argument that grazing of winter cereals can actually increase yield. If the growing tip is eaten, a corn stem will then 'Tiller' out into two separate shoots creating two ears of corn instead of one. Rabbits are more destructive as they will eat everything to the ground near the hedge. Hares cover the entire field and create minimal observed damage. Hares are also attributed for Tillering corn.
MS

 

[TikkaFan]

I don't believe Roe feed mainly on grass! Sure they graze on wheat and barley fields but only grass in an emergency.
There is also an argument that grazing of winter cereals can actually increase yield. If the growing tip is eaten, a corn stem will then 'Tiller' out into two separate shoots creating two ears of corn instead of one. Rabbits are more destructive as they will eat everything to the ground near the hedge. Hares cover the entire field and create minimal observed damage. Hares are also attributed for Tillering corn.
MS

What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.re hares , they are usually that thin on the ground compared with rabbits they of course do minimal damage .

 

[willie_gunn]

What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.re hares , they are usually that thin on the ground compared with rabbits they of course do minimal damage .

I'd be genuinely interested to see your supporting evidence for "scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice".

Much of what I've reviewed would suggest this not to be the case. For example:

"The annual diet of the Roe deer (Capreolus capreolus) in the New Forest, Hampshire, as determined by rumen content analysis", a study by John Jackson in 1980, established that "Bramble and rose formed the bulk of the diet throughout the year", although "From May until early winter, herbs and grasses were important".

"The roe deer diet: Is floodplain forest optimal habitat?" concluded that "Woody plants were the main component of roe deer diet, and they were supplemented with bramble, forbs and grasses through the year. The composition of roe deer diet agreed with its foraging strategy and consisted mainly of browse"

"Impact of season, habitat and research techniques on diet composition of roe deer (Capreolus capreolus): a review" by Cornelis, Casaer and Henry that looked at 33 European studies on roe deer diet concluded that "From the yearly weighted averages it is clear that halfwoody plants, deciduous browse, dwarf shrubs and cultivated plants are the most important food items for roe deer. In combination they form more than two thirds of the diet."

Even resources such as ADW: Capreolus capreolus: INFORMATION, maintained by the University of Michigan and built around evidence gleaned from thousands of studies, concludes that "Roe deer consume apporximately 1,000 plant species in their range. Of these species, the percentage breakdown of plant type is as follows: 25% woody plants, 54% herbaceous dicotyledons and 16% monocotyledons.", so only 16% of their diet could generally be described as grasses.

So in general the science would seem to suggest that roe deer are browsers with a preference for woody and broadleaf organic material, rather than grasses.

If you have access to studies that support the alternative that they mainly eat grass I'd be keen to read them.

 

[slider]

What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.re hares , they are usually that thin on the ground compared with rabbits they of course do minimal damage .

Please point me to these surveys you refer to. Having farmed sheep for near 60 years, "controlled" untold numbers or rabbits in the same period as well as have observed deer and been closely involved in both forestry and conservation< I am intrigued to know that all I have learned is wrong.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.re hares , they are usually that thin on the ground compared with rabbits they of course do minimal damage .

What I believe might not be backed by scientific data, but it is fairly obvious to anyone that has watched and culled enough Roe deer and analysed their stomach contents. Roe are classified as 'browsers' which is in itself a bit of a clue!? If they ate mainly grass they would be grazers. Sure, Roe will eat grass out of necessity or even choice at times, but if they preferred it as a food choice then we would see them grazing all year round in grass pastures which we don't! The trouble with science is that it can sometimes only capture a snapshot without account for different regions or seasons and may not always be accurate. The same science that says that a bumble bee is incapable of flight! The deer certainly don't read the books and will eat what they like!
Hares population is also regional. The ground I stalked this morning has about 10 hares for every rabbit. I have counted over 70 in a single smallish corn field. I'm not sure how many sheep that equates to, but I'd say they were capable of more than minimal damage in that density.
But hey, what do I know as what I believe is worthless.
MS

 

[willie_gunn]

What I believe might not be backed by scientific data, but it is fairly obvious to anyone that has watched and culled enough Roe deer and analysed their stomach contents.

On the contrary. From all the evidence I can find what you believe is very much backed by scientific data.

Wikipedia might say something different, but Wikipedia hardly qualifies as peer-reviewed science

 

[TikkaFan]

I'd be genuinely interested to see your supporting evidence for "scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice".

Much of what I've reviewed would suggest this not to be the case. For example:

"The annual diet of the Roe deer (Capreolus capreolus) in the New Forest, Hampshire, as determined by rumen content analysis", a study by John Jackson in 1980, established that "Bramble and rose formed the bulk of the diet throughout the year", although "From May until early winter, herbs and grasses were important".

"The roe deer diet: Is floodplain forest optimal habitat?" concluded that "Woody plants were the main component of roe deer diet, and they were supplemented with bramble, forbs and grasses through the year. The composition of roe deer diet agreed with its foraging strategy and consisted mainly of browse"

"Impact of season, habitat and research techniques on diet composition of roe deer (Capreolus capreolus): a review" by Cornelis, Casaer and Henry that looked at 33 European studies on roe deer diet concluded that "From the yearly weighted averages it is clear that halfwoody plants, deciduous browse, dwarf shrubs and cultivated plants are the most important food items for roe deer. In combination they form more than two thirds of the diet."

Even resources such as ADW: Capreolus capreolus: INFORMATION, maintained by the University of Michigan and built around evidence gleaned from thousands of studies, concludes that "Roe deer consume apporximately 1,000 plant species in their range. Of these species, the percentage breakdown of plant type is as follows: 25% woody plants, 54% herbaceous dicotyledons and 16% monocotyledons.", so only 16% of their diet could generally be described as grasses.

So in general the science would seem to suggest that roe deer are browsers with a preference for woody and broadleaf organic material, rather than grasses.

If you have access to studies that support the alternative that they mainly eat grass I'd be keen to read them.

Get ready for some in depth reading plus some journals will cost you , you will find different findings and have to come to your own conclusion quite often , use Google Scholar as your search engine , not the usual Google , heres a start Capreolus capreolus - Google Scholar

 

[TikkaFan]

On the contrary. From all the evidence I can find what you believe is very much backed by scientific data.

Wikipedia might say something different, but Wikipedia hardly qualifies as peer-reviewed science

True enough all Wiki cant be trusted BUT if articles are referenced you can follow the trail to the source and decide on its credibility.
The grass diet appears to go back to Boyle, K.V. (2006), "The Roe Deer: Conservation of a Native Species", in Serjeantson, D; Field, D, Neolithic wild game animals in Western Europe: The question of hunting, Oxford: Oxbow Books, pp. 10–23, ISBN 978-1-84217-214-8

BTW I missed the chance of a shot this morning , 3 Roe raiding turnips , tastier than grass I reckon.

 

[Tackleberry270]

Scientific research cannot be wrong surely!? So many people are blinkered by other people's science that they can't open their eyes and look for themselves. I dare to think how many times scientists have been wrong throughout history.

 

[TikkaFan]

Scientific research cannot be wrong surely!? So many people are blinkered by other people's science that they can't open their eyes and look for themselves. I dare to think how many times scientists have been wrong throughout history.

Better to listen to old wives tales and blokes down the pub then

 

[baguio]

Better to listen to old wives tales and blokes down the pub then

Well I know where I find all my roe and it isn't on football pitches or anything resembling them. You're on a forum with some very experienced stalkers. I couldn't care less what dubious scientific evidence you have found TikkaFan. We know what roe prefer and where they are most likely to be found. Think what you like but it appears from reading your posts that you would rather argue the toss with people who know better than you rather than learn from the forum members.

All the comments below are written by you on this thread and I could have added others too. They all show you to be very inexperienced and very argumentative.

1. considering DSC 2 but the only benefits I can see so far is the possibility of stalking on Forestry Commission land
2. At over £1k it appears to be an expensive ego trip.
3. I doubt it , most landowners havent got a clue what it is.
4. as Roe can eat as much as a sheep so they are happy to see them gone
5. its a fact that 10 rabbits will eat as much as a sheep
6. even today no land is specified on my open FAC.
7. What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.
8. Better to listen to old wives tales and blokes down the pub then


You don't originate from Essex do you?

Have a day off mate!

 

[Tackleberry270]

Better to listen to old wives tales and blokes down the pub then

Re read what I said Tikka!

Aside from this. You may as well state what your own expertise and credentials are on the study of Roe? If you have any you may be taken a little more seriously!

 

[slider]

Re read what I said Tikka!

Aside from this. You may as well state what your own expertise and credentials are on the study of Roe? If you have any you may be taken a little more seriously!

I have come to the conclusion that I might as well ignore Tiffafan, he would argue with his own shadow and never provides a genuine reply when challenged - just another troll,

 

[timbrayford]

Wikipedia might say something different, but Wikipedia hardly qualifies as peer-reviewed science

IMO its more of a talking shop for opinionated middle class types rather than a serious information resource

 

[willie_gunn]

Get ready for some in depth reading plus some journals will cost you , you will find different findings and have to come to your own conclusion quite often , use Google Scholar as your search engine , not the usual Google , heres a start Capreolus capreolus - Google Scholar

Sorry, I asked you to cite references, as I did, not a link to a search engine. Do you actually have any references?

 

[willie_gunn]

True enough all Wiki cant be trusted BUT if articles are referenced you can follow the trail to the source and decide on its credibility.
The grass diet appears to go back to Boyle, K.V. (2006), "The Roe Deer: Conservation of a Native Species", in Serjeantson, D; Field, D, Neolithic wild game animals in Western Europe: The question of hunting, Oxford: Oxbow Books, pp. 10–23, ISBN 978-1-84217-214-8

BTW I missed the chance of a shot this morning , 3 Roe raiding turnips , tastier than grass I reckon.

"Roe Deer: Conservation of a Native Species" is by Richard Prior? I am not at home, otherwise I would check my copy, but you seem to have just cut and pasted incorrectly from a search result.

If you don't have references why not simply say so? Your introduction on the Site said that you were here to learn - which is something we're all here to do. Perhaps now is the time to put that into practice? People here are very open in terms of sharing their knowledge and experience. It's something I have certainly benefited from and I'd encourage others to do likewise. Isn't it better to gain knowledge rather than dispute just for the sake of it?

 

[Highlandsjohn]

"Roe Deer: Conservation of a Native Species" is by Richard Prior? I am not at home, otherwise I would check my copy, but you seem to have just cut and pasted incorrectly from a search result.

If you don't have references why not simply say so? Your introduction on the Site said that you were here to learn - which is something we're all here to do. Perhaps now is the time to put that into practice? People here are very open in terms of sharing their knowledge and experience. It's something I have certainly benefited from and I'd encourage others to do likewise. Isn't it better to gain knowledge rather than dispute just for the sake of it?

Good post willie Gun,your tag line would seem very appropriate in this instance. If only the roe deer would eat more grass and leave off the winter barley. In my dreams..they might well live a bit longer...

 

[TikkaFan]

Well I know where I find all my roe and it isn't on football pitches or anything resembling them. You're on a forum with some very experienced stalkers. I couldn't care less what dubious scientific evidence you have found TikkaFan. We know what roe prefer and where they are most likely to be found. Think what you like but it appears from reading your posts that you would rather argue the toss with people who know better than you rather than learn from the forum members.

All the comments below are written by you on this thread and I could have added others too. They all show you to be very inexperienced and very argumentative.

1. considering DSC 2 but the only benefits I can see so far is the possibility of stalking on Forestry Commission land
2. At over £1k it appears to be an expensive ego trip.
3. I doubt it , most landowners havent got a clue what it is.
4. as Roe can eat as much as a sheep so they are happy to see them gone
5. its a fact that 10 rabbits will eat as much as a sheep
6. even today no land is specified on my open FAC.
7. What you believe is worthless , you have to do a scientific survey , and guess what, scientists have already found they eat mainly grass if they have a choice.
8. Better to listen to old wives tales and blokes down the pub then


You don't originate from Essex do you?

Have a day off mate!

Sure I argue ,I`m playing devils advocate most of the time , it seems to be the only way to get some debate going on this forum , I dont personally attack other posters unless they start , little get`s learnt or discussed by back slapping and congratulating each other on their amazing knowledge and skills , banter is another thing some people dont get. I`ll back off if sensitive types are getting upset.