whats out there????

[Grandhubert]

Ahhh I never suggested he got shot of it just acquired another for range use and practice. I did say that in my opinion that a .243WSM is daft for range use and there are far more suitable ones. Just the same as I regard my own .280 AI not teh best for range use especially with the price of powders today in the UK. nce the load development is done range practice would be with the .308 target rifles or the .222 .

Due to the much shorter barrel life expected with the .243 WSM that's a very good reason for a range rifle for practice.

Fair enough mate but it's a very good idea to shoot your primary stalking rifle as much as you can. The idea is mainly to acquire an instinctive knowledge of the thing, it's trigger, it's action etc.

I've put around 1750 rounds though my 30.06 over the last four years, ok fair enough it was my first and I needed the practice but now I know it so well it comes everywhere with me.

As long as he's not shooting strings I think he'd be fine, particularly if he loads it down a bit.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

Ahhh I never suggested he got shot of it just acquired another for range use and practice. I did say that in my opinion that a .243WSM is daft for range use and there are far more suitable ones. Just the same as I regard my own .280 AI not teh best for range use especially with the price of powders today in the UK. nce the load development is done range practice would be with the .308 target rifles or the .222 .

Due to the much shorter barrel life expected with the .243 WSM that's a very good reason for a range rifle for practice.

I understand what your saying but you dont sem to get my side of this. I wont be on a range I will set up my own target from time to time and drill holes in it. This rifle has enough life in it to see me to the end....


Nutty

 

[nuttyspaniel]

I think the difference is that the guy has found a nice rifle at a very attractive price, I'm not suggesting he get rid of it but that he re-assess what he thinks it's capable of.

You are correct, but the choice was down to me using a wssm prior and liking it.

nutty

 

[nuttyspaniel]

Well indeed sir, this is why no bugger wants one!

You are back where you started with this thread, you have to decide what to compromise on, bullet weight, bullet cost or velocity.

You don't have any other option that I can see.

I dont think Im back at the begining, far from it. I know what speeds the wssm can produce and that promted the question in the 1st place. Again I want and will use the lightest bullet I can. If I wanted to chuck 90-100gns out the muzzel I would have just bought a 243 or a 25-06. I know that I may be looking for a holy grail but its going to be a challange that Ill relish. And when its all sorted and the dust has settled Ill have another rifle/ load combo I trust.


Nutty

 

[Grandhubert]

I dont think Im back at the begining, far from it. I know what speeds the wssm can produce and that promted the question in the 1st place. Again I want and will use the lightest bullet I can. If I wanted to chuck 90-100gns out the muzzel I would have just bought a 243 or a 25-06. I know that I may be looking for a holy grail but its going to be a challange that Ill relish. And when its all sorted and the dust has settled Ill have another rifle/ load combo I trust.


Nutty

Thanks for the clarification Nutty, I think I understand where you're coming from.

What a few of the other posters and I are trying to say is that light bullets do not necessarily suit the cartridge.

If the purpose of a light bullet is to flatten tradjectory: this is a false benefit, the very light bullets lose speed so quickly that the heavier bullets will overtake them and actually shoot flatter beyond a couple of hundred yards or so. They are also blown about much more in the wind, making it harder rather than easier to hit.

If the purpose of the light bullets is due to the twist of the rifle: Shoot a premium bullet that will effectively pucnh above it's weight by retaining more mass than a perhaps heavier but conventionally contructed bullet.

If you want someone to tell you "It's fine to use lightweight varmint bullets on deer at those velocites" I think you may struggle to find a experienced stalker to take that position.

I suppose I'm asking why you're wedded to the idea of light bullets, in a case that was desinged to push heavier ones faster?

 

[nuttyspaniel]

Thanks for the clarification Nutty, I think I understand where you're coming from.

What a few of the other posters and I are trying to say is that light bullets do not necessarily suit the cartridge.

If the purpose of a light bullet is to flatten tradjectory: this is a false benefit, the very light bullets lose speed so quickly that the heavier bullets will overtake them and actually shoot flatter beyond a couple of hundred yards or so. They are also blown about much more in the wind, making it harder rather than easier to hit.

If the purpose of the light bullets is due to the twist of the rifle: Shoot a premium bullet that will effectively pucnh above it's weight by retaining more mass than a perhaps heavier but conventionally contructed bullet.

If you want someone to tell you "It's fine to use lightweight varmint bullets on deer at those velocites" I think you may struggle to find a experienced stalker to take that position.

I suppose I'm asking why you're wedded to the idea of light bullets, in a case that was desinged to push heavier ones faster?

All fair points GH. 1 thing I will say Im not asking anybody to suggest light vermin bullets are OK. Infact thats what triggered the post due to only being able to find thin jacketed bullets at a lighter weight. I know if I was to drive 1 of those bullets as fast as I can without effecting grouping then there is a very very good chance Ill blow the sod up!!! In my ideal world I would like to use 70-80 grn bullets, but I will have to have full confidence in them 1st.

On a different note and again another reason for the thread. During my research into loads I realised 222 power shock bullets are loaded using a thin jacketed vermin bullet, and only recomended for small game and vermin.!!! And people buy and use these on Roe!!


I hope this helps to clear the water a bit more. Im just trying to wring out the most from the calibre whilst trying to keep the bullet weight down. I personally dont see the point in buying a calibre then trying to use the largest bullet that specific calibre can handle, I feel that it would be better stepping up to the next and using a mid-ranged bullet. E.g. the 243 can shoot a 100grn bulet but I feel the 25-06 which can also shoot the same bullet weight will do the job better thats just my train of thought, and the reason I used to own a 25-06.

Nutty

 

[Brithunter]

Ahhh so your a LFC fan. Like a friend in the US who has fro years used a 115grn 7mm bullet at warp speeds through a 7mm Wildcat. If I recall correctly it's a 300 Weatherby case necked down to 7mm.

Sorry I did not realise that you only wanted to punch a few holes now and then but thought you actually wanted to practice with this rifle. However unless your really ancient and do out shoot very much I doubt it will see you out especially shootign LFC bullets at warp speeds.


Good luck in your quest. .................................. Somehow I feel you will need it.

 

[nuttyspaniel]

Ahhh so your a LFC fan. Like a friend in the US who has fro years used a 115grn 7mm bullet at warp speeds through a 7mm Wildcat. If I recall correctly it's a 300 Weatherby case necked down to 7mm.

Sorry I did not realise that you only wanted to punch a few holes now and then but thought you actually wanted to practice with this rifle. However unless your really ancient and do out shoot very much I doubt it will see you out especially shootign LFC bullets at warp speeds.


Good luck in your quest. .................................. Somehow I feel you will need it.

Another positive constructive post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers
Nutty

 

[Grandhubert]

All fair points GH. 1 thing I will say Im not asking anybody to suggest light vermin bullets are OK. Infact thats what triggered the post due to only being able to find thin jacketed bullets at a lighter weight. I know if I was to drive 1 of those bullets as fast as I can without effecting grouping then there is a very very good chance Ill blow the sod up!!! In my ideal world I would like to use 70-80 grn bullets, but I will have to have full confidence in them 1st.

On a different note and again another reason for the thread. During my research into loads I realised 222 power shock bullets are loaded using a thin jacketed vermin bullet, and only recomended for small game and vermin.!!! And people buy and use these on Roe!!


I hope this helps to clear the water a bit more. Im just trying to wring out the most from the calibre whilst trying to keep the bullet weight down. I personally dont see the point in buying a calibre then trying to use the largest bullet that specific calibre can handle, I feel that it would be better stepping up to the next and using a mid-ranged bullet. E.g. the 243 can shoot a 100grn bulet but I feel the 25-06 which can also shoot the same bullet weight will do the job better thats just my train of thought, and the reason I used to own a 25-06.

Nutty

I'm not sure I agree with your views on bullet weight, for reasons I expounded above, but it's your rifle and your choice mate.

In your position I think I would have to bite the bullet, so to speak, and get a premium of the weight you want.

To extract the maximum performance from a high performance cartridge, you need to match the components to the use and hang the cost I'm afraid.

The analogy is like putting cheap tyres on a car. If the car is a 50 HP FWD shopping trolley you will probably be fine, in a 500 HP RWD monster you would be hopelessly out of control unless you never use the potential of the car in the first place.

Launch a 85grain TSX as fast as you can and find a cheaper bullet with the same BC for practice if it gets too much.

You've reached the limit of the knowledge base on here, I think it would be very interesting, and also rather good of you too boot, to try your ideas out and report back to us.

 

[bambi308]

with light bullets, 75 and 80 grain, this calibre is good for benchrest targets but on live game it is best to stick to 100 grain. The lighter bullets are too fast for game and cause a lot of un-edible bloody meat damage which gets rejected by the game dealer

 

[nuttyspaniel]

I'm not sure I agree with your views on bullet weight, for reasons I expounded above, but it's your rifle and your choice mate.

In your position I think I would have to bite the bullet, so to speak, and get a premium of the weight you want.

To extract the maximum performance from a high performance cartridge, you need to match the components to the use and hang the cost I'm afraid.

The analogy is like putting cheap tyres on a car. If the car is a 50 HP FWD shopping trolley you will probably be fine, in a 500 HP RWD monster you would be hopelessly out of control unless you never use the potential of the car in the first place.

Launch a 85grain TSX as fast as you can and find a cheaper bullet with the same BC for practice if it gets too much.

You've reached the limit of the knowledge base on here, I think it would be very interesting, and also rather good of you too boot, to try your ideas out and report back to us.

Theres definately method in your madness Thanks for your input.


nutty

 

[nuttyspaniel]

with light bullets, 75 and 80 grain, this calibre is good for benchrest targets but on live game it is best to stick to 100 grain. The lighter bullets are too fast for game and cause a lot of un-edible bloody meat damage which gets rejected by the game dealer

Nothing would be rejected as nothing goes to the game dealer, but I do understand what your saying. I suppose at the end of the day, and as Ive said to a mate a few days ago, itll be better setting this rifle up for Deer and just using the same load for Fox aswell, rather than trying to get something in the middle.


Nutty

 

[Brithunter]

with light bullets, 75 and 80 grain, this calibre is good for benchrest targets but on live game it is best to stick to 100 grain. The lighter bullets are too fast for game and cause a lot of un-edible bloody meat damage which gets rejected by the game dealer

Hmmm that's not actually what my US friend has found. He uses the Speer 115 grain Hollow Point 0.284" bullet at hi velocity. I believe it's well over 3000fps and finds that it performs very well on game. He has shot Caribou, Black Tail deer, White Tail deer, Sheep, Goats and even Bears with it. In fact he is rather upset as it seems Speer have dropped this bullet from production. Of course all the meat is for their own consumption as one cannot sell the meat as I understand it. He is not into wasted meat.

I will need to check but I do seem to recall he acquired a rather nice rifle in a 6mm Wildcat as well a couple of years back. Will have to ask him about it.

Now Nutty I mention barrel life being short as another American friend built a .243 AI for use at 600 yards in Bench rest and Hi Power. He had a Three groove Lija barrel chambered for it as the three groove barrel resists the throat erosion better. However the rifle has already been relegated to stand hunting use as the grouping has dropped off and it's no longer good enough to hold it's own. Due to this short life he has moved to a slightly more forgiving 6.5x284 cartridge and built two rifles with Broughton barrels and using the same new tight chamber reamer so now he can even out the wear a bit more and have one set up with scope for BR and the other with precision aperture sights for Hi Power..

I am sorry if you felt my post was not constructive. If I am wrong about the accurate life of your .243 WSM then I will be happily surprised.

 

[RPA 6MM BR]

Hmmm let's see the chap asks some questions and well I suppose we could all be like the Gun Whores and tell lies about how good the choice is.

Surely the time to ask these questions is before one buys the rifle in a strange chambering not after one buys it.

If we are honest the .243 WSM IS a very minority cartridge and border line on already becoming extinct. Despite the best attempts by the Gun Whores hyping it up it's withering away. As Muir pointed out shops in the US cannot almost give them away and where a re-barrel is quite reasonable in cost unlike her ein the UK where one almost needs a mortage to get one done.

As a pure hunting rifle once load development is done barrel life should be a few years unless one is shooting an awful lot but for range use really tis a not starter. As for this:-



I for one would not be using bullets designed for vermin/varmints with thin jackets or deer.

Well if you bother to read the thread you will see it reads "i am getting a 243wssm" not "i am thinking of getting one" the Op is asking about bullet choices NOT calibre choice! Yes it is a minority cartridge but so what. if thats what he wants then good for him. And what makes you the expert? i have shot a large amount of Roe and Foxes (the choice species of the OP) over the years with the 75gr V-Max with no issues on these species, they do a great job.

 

[RPA 6MM BR]

If you take my advice Nutty, i would go and buy your 243wssm, complete your load development with the 75gr V-Max and then whilst everyone else on here argues, bickers and forces their expert opinions on each other you will be out knocking your Roe and your Foxes over with good effect!

 

[Brithunter]

Well if you bother to read the thread you will see it reads "i am getting a 243wssm" not "i am thinking of getting one" the Op is asking about bullet choices NOT calibre choice! Yes it is a minority cartridge but so what. if thats what he wants then good for him. And what makes you the expert? i have shot a large amount of Roe and Foxes (the choice species of the OP) over the years with the 75gr V-Max with no issues on these species, they do a great job.

Well I never said I was an expert.

Where did I say I was? Where did I say don't get it for stalking/foxing?

The Op as you put it mentioned targets as well and let's face it it's not the best cartridge for such use. It was then changed to occasional target in a field by the Op...................... Hmmm OK.

As Foxes are classed as vermin or varmints in American parlance the 75 Grn v-max is ideal for them being designed for such quarry however Roe deer no matter how light or small are not vermin, unless of course your running a commercial forestry plantation when you might see them as such, and despite Coyote being classed as varmints and weighing as much if not more than some Roe meat loss is not a problem. You will find that those who wish to keep the Coyote hides do not use V-Max bullets on the whole as they make a mess of the hides.

Regardless or "your expert" opinion I would not use a bullet designed to expand violently/fragment on deer.

 

[RPA 6MM BR]

And good for you for not using them, i guess thats why you have NO idea of the way they perform on Roe, they actually do a very good consistant job on them not blowing bloody great holes in them as you assume. As i have already said i have shot a lot of deer with this head over the years and my experience is real and not something that is built from assumption.

 

[plonker]

Whatever the outcome of the lighter bullets for roe may be the wssm with light bullets will be a hell of a foxing tool.
All the best
dave

 

[Thar]

If I am wrong about the accurate life of your .243 WSM then I will be happily surprised.

Kevin, And well you might be,

I brought a Browning 243WSSM not because I was a fan of the calibre but because I liked the rifle, (it was a model I always wanted) When I went to buy the rifle the owner bragged about how he was using 70gn bullets at over 3600fps on foxes, he said it was devastating on them which I had no doubts however, I thought the throat would be toast after the 400 rounds he claimed to have shot thought it. I brought it with a mind to getting it re-barrelled. I had a gun smith check it with a bore scope and he said he couldn’t see any appreciable wear to the throat; I was a little disappointed as this meant the re-barrel was on hold. I use 100gn bullets though mine and although I can push them to 3200fps safely I find best accuracy at 3100fps, about 150fps better than my old 243 win with the same barrel length.
The Browning WSSM came with a chrome lined barrel, I would expect a similar barrel life as a standard barrelled 243 and nobody complains about barrel life when used for foxing or stalking, no doubt if used for long strings of repeated shots as in competition or US style varminting you could burn one out, but a bit of informal target practice, stalking and foxing I am sure he will have got 10 times its worth in venison before burning it out.

First hand real world experience of the calibre not internet experience.

ATB

Tahr

 

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm I was not aware that browning was using chrome lined bores on these and that will make a big difference on barrel life no doubt. As for real hands on experience well I doubt I will even have any with this cartridge as there are others that I would choose way before it. I am not that keen on the std .243 Winchester although I won two of them now.

I thought the 6mm Remington was bad enough to get cases etc for thank you.


Sorry to hear about the lack of the re-barrel but I expect you'll live.

As for burnt throats out of all the rifles I own and have owned I can put four up as having this problem:-

303 P-14 Eddystone that had been a target rifle and shot god only how many thousands of cordite 303 rounds.

22/250 BSA CF2 that was brought as project to re-barrel but came with several boxes of federal 55 Grn SP so like you do I went to the range and shot it only to find it would plonk them in five shot strings all within MOA comfortably so it too never got re--barreled and I only sold it when Bisley banned their use on the ranges due to exceeding the muzzle velocity restrictions. The BSRC were particularly hot on banning the 22/250 from their range. The throat was obviously eroded even to the naked eye yet it still shot well. The rifle was bog standard to.

270 Winchester BSA Monarch 1st pattern. brought cheap (£25) as it was well worn inside and out. Cleaned it scoped it and found that it would shoot still around MOA so cold blued the barrel and used it on and off for a few years until it got a new 7mm barrel re-chambered in 280 AI in 2011.

25-06 P-H 1200C brought this in 2010 and grouping proved challenging. Not as good as I expected so after a really good clean Steve Kershaw scopes the bore for me and the result is that the first 10" of the bore is quite badly heat crazed which explains a lot. Again as it was used I have no ideal how many rounds it has had through it over the years or what it was used for before I acquired it. The bedding could do with improving as it's no longer perfect. That was being discussed when the troubles hit. I have put around 400 rounds through it in load development and testing the various bullets, powders and primers here is one such test:-

As I say the bedding needs improving/rectifying on this one. Of course Speer have recently dropped this bullet from production . Just getting somewhere and have to start over again.

More common is that barrels are not cleaned properly or so I have found. Brought an old BSA Majestic as a re-barrel project (£75 with P-H scope rings attached) spent a weekend cleaning it only to find the worn barrel was actually a fouled out barrel. Once the jacket and powder fouling layers were removed the bore was actually good. there is some throat wear as one would expect on a 60 years old rifle chambered for the 270 Win cartridge but here is the first shots after teh clean and re-assembly:-

From a cold clean bore. Yes six rounds three it seems to settle in. More testing would have been done but!!!! The ammunition was Federal Fusion 150 grain I believe.

I suppose I tend to shoot more than a lot of people and it shows on the blast shield of the sound moderator:-

This is in less than a years use. Mainly 25-06 with a bit of 6.5x55 and a few .243 through it. Perhaps in future I will need to keep a shooting log to keep track of ammunition expenditure and a moderator log so one can see the wear and how long it takes to progress. It's experience like this which makes me dubious of some claims so throat life.

As said I am all up fro being pleasantly surprised.