Bigboab29
Well-Known Member
I was at court last year on jury duty and I've got a 3 inch muntjak antler as a key ring on the car keys and they took this off me before I was aloud in the court!!
Where is it not legal to carry a folding knife ?
- Thread starter gonzo
- Start date
I was at court last year on jury duty and I've got a 3 inch muntjak antler as a key ring on the car keys and they took this off me before I was aloud in the court!!
Chanty Wrassler
Well-Known Member
Technically it is the length of the cutting edge which must be shorter than 3" (the cutting edge is often longer than the blade due to the curve)
8x57
Distinguished Member
Absolutely totally agree. A knife is an essential tool that most of us use numerous times in a day. Having had a folding knife close on me resulting in 5 stitches down the side of my thumb I am not fond of knives that don't have some form of safety/locking mechanism. If anyone uses one as a weapon then that's an entirely different matter, and the full weight of the law should come down on them like a ton of bricks, but to make a criminal of someone for simply carrying a tool is absolutely ridiculous.
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
Not all non locking knives are made equal though. Some of the newer ones (personal experience of the Spyderco UKPK and Byrd Tern) have a very positive click when open and a finger choil to prevent the blade closing on your hand/fingers. For me I use my knife multiple times a day and for 99% of uses I can't see where having a locking knife would be any better or safer. I'd suggest looking at some modern decent legal carry knives and not only will you have a really good quality knife but safe in the knowledge your not going to end up on the wrong side of the law.
Big Jim
Well-Known Member
It seem that Police Scotland like to use their own interpretation of the law with knives as well as firearms legislation guidance.I'm a bit sceptical about this one I'm afraid. There is no law against carrying a folding penknife with a blade less than 7.62cm (3") anywhere. If the blade was a locking blade then I could understand why your farmer friend was arrested. Also, unless there was far, far more to the story than you have related, no one goes straight to court from police cells without some pretty heavy exceptional circumstances. If it was a folding pocket knife, his arrest was unlawful. If he really spent a night in the cells, then it wasn't a folding pocket knife.
Here's the Gov.UK guidelines :
Selling, buying and carrying knives and weapons
The laws on selling, buying and carrying a knife or weapon depend on the type of knife or weapon, your age and your circumstances.www.gov.uk
To answer the original question, there are two specific pieces of legislation which can apply to knives.
Section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953
makes it an offence to have an offensive weapon in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.
Here, an offensive weapon is any article made, or adapted, or intended by the person having it with him, or by another, to cause personal injury to any person. So it would include knuckledusters(made to cause injury) a piece of wood with nails driven through it (adapted to cause injury) or a rounders bat (an innocent piece of sporting equipment, carried to a fight intended to cause injury) There are certain types of knives and weapons which are included in various schedules and are defined as "offensive weapons per se" such as balisong knives, switchblades, knuckledusters, coshes, etc.
Public place is any place where the public has access, on payment or otherwise, so the street, or a stadium/nightclub etc.
The offence is complete if the person having it with him intends to use the item to cause injury by him or by another person. In other words you can't carry a weapon for a mate to use.
By definition, if you carry a small "legal carry" penknife with the intention of using to to cause injury the offence is complete, but it is only defined as an offensive weapon by way of that intent
Lawful authority means some people can carry what would otherwise be offensive weapons, eg a copper's baton, and reasonable excuse would be a theatre prop, or Mrs Miggins taking the cosh she's confiscated off little Johnny to the police station to hand it in.
Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 makes an offence of having an article with blade or sharp point in a public place without lawful authority or good reason. Section 139A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it an offence to have an article within either of the above offences on school premises. Sections 139 and 139A of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 apply to any article which has a blade or point except a folding pocketknife unless the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 7.62 centimetres (3 inches).
Here the act is pretty simple. You mustn't have with you in a public place (again, street, nightclub, stadium, cinema etc) any item which has a bladed edge or a sharp point. So that includes any knives, or swords, or machetes, or darts, or school compasses, or (....you get the picture) unless you have a reason to do so. This time it's up to you to convince the court that you had a good reason. So a carpet fitter on their way to work can carry a stanley knife, but not when they go to the pub. A Darts player can take their sharply pointed items to the pub, but not to the football. A chef can take his or her 32 piece professional Japanese knife set to work, but not to Butlins at the weekend.
The only exception is the good old folding (not locking, not fixed) pocket knife as long as the cutting edge of its blade doesn't exceed 7.62 cm or 3". You don't need any foreseeable good reason to carry one of those.
Section 139A of the 1988 Act simply adds School premises to the list of places where the above 2 offences can be committed. The reason being is that the general public are not allowed access to schools whether on payment or otherwise, so it closes a potential loophole or two. It also adds "for educational purposes" as a defence/reasonable excuse where applicable.
Otherwise, any premises may have their own rules for allowing or not allowing "legal carry " knives. It's their premises, their rules, but no specific legislation exists other than the above.
8x57
Distinguished Member
I was on a prosecutions course some years ago along with a dozen or so associates. The trainers had arranged for us to use one of the crown courts in Cardiff one afternoon in order to hold mock trials. We were required to all go through the metal detector and as expected the first guy set off the detector and the security guard asked him to empty his pockets or remove his knife from his belt and place it in the box. One by one we all set off the detector until the guard asked is there any one of us not carrying a knife to which one sheepish guy admitted that he wasn't. I always had my doubts about that guy, obviously not a real fireman.
In the end the security guy said "I'm not holding on to that lot. Take them all back, if we can't trust you we can't trust anyone" and we carried on.
On another occasion I was on a multi-agency inspection of a nightclub. As per usual I had a bodyguard, who happened to be the smallest policewoman on the raid. I needed to take a sample of a suspect wall lining material so pulled out my knife to cut the sample when this WPC chirped up that's illegal you can't have that knife. I didn't have time to tell her how wrong she was before the licencing officer another PC who I had worked with on several occasions previously told her in the most direct terms possible to go away and to leave me alone. He added he's the one with the warrant we wouldn't be in here without him now p**s off.
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gonzo
Well-Known Member
That's where your legal council steps in.
I have heard of a number of cases where someone has believed that they had a valid reason for having a non folding knife when stopped.
Rather than going to court over it, they were talked into taking a police caution for the offence, as it got them out of the situation quickly.
But, had bitten them years down the line.
The advice I was given was; if you believe you have a valid reason, say nothing, get the duty solicitor and go to court.
It's the court's job to carefully examine the case, where as the police are just getting you off their books as quick as possible.
No, you aren't being forced to 'second-guess' anyone.
The law is the law. If you have a knife with a blade length over 3", You must show 'good reason' to have such a knife with you at that time.
You're off on a stalking trip up to Scotland, and have stopped for a break and the knife is in your car - there is good reason.
You're off to the game shoot syndicate for a work day, and the knife is in your coat pocket - even if you pop into the supermarket - you've probably got good reason.
You're in work, sitting at a computer all day, and you have the knife in your pocket - probably not 'good reason'.
You've gone from home to a school meeting, from where you'll be going back home, but you've got a knife in your pocket - almost certainly not 'good reason'.
The law in as regards to knives is actually pretty reasonable
I kinda agree, but equally try walking around some places in big cities and tell me thats not the case! Definitely feels like the powers that be have lost control of the streets...
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
A cop for 30 years, the last few years of which spent as a custody manager, with part of that role spent making decisions as to whether or not charges or other disposals were appropriate given the evidence, so a thorough working knowledge of "everyday" legislation, as well as how to apply various HO guidelines and charging standards.
The passport office in London doesn’t like it.. As I have a Swiss Amry Knife In my pocket all the time, I didn’t think on going there one day and had it kept for me by the kind security team until I left. No big deal as there was quite a number of people getting property back on exit. You even get a receipt!
I also had to relinquish a small penknife that just lives in my pocket when helping someone out at the crown court. I just had to fill in a form to get it posted back to me.
No idea why anyone would use that as an excuse to lock someone up!
Scapegoat
Well-Known Member
No, I oversaw the custody suites across a division, Manager was an Inspector's post.Am I showing my age by thinking of that role as Custody Sargeant?
Tom D
Well-Known Member
I'm really surprised hearing the stories about the farmers, are they really true? As an arborist / tree surgeon I carry a knife almost every day, its a safety requirement when climbing in case you need to cut gear in an emergency. I use mine often for taking samples, cuttings and rudimentary decay detection. I'm always lost without it, it comes in handy for so many other things too. I'd definitely stand my ground if someone tried to charge me with carrying it illegally.
In which case, I'm still showing my age as it must be 17 years plus since I last made representations to a Custody Sergeant or Duty Inspector. It was great fun at the time but I'm glad to be out of that area of practice!
I doubt it.
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