I suggest you need to read some more. Wildcats in .25-06 and 6.5-06 have been around for over a hundred years. Which one has been adopted as a SAAMI spec round? Regards JCS
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Which 6.5?
- Thread starter North Cornwall Deer
- Start date
I suggest you need to read some more. Wildcats in .25-06 and 6.5-06 have been around for over a hundred years. Which one has been adopted as a SAAMI spec round? Regards JCS
Jolyon2112
Well-Known Member
As I said, I'm surprised it's not more commonly used. Pretty sure I never mentioned anything about either rounds history. Perhaps you should read contributors postings in full before posting suggestions.
tackb
Well-Known Member
try being less touchy matey , suns out and lifes good !
the point he was making rather well in my opinion was the 6.5-06 has been around ages but never been adopted as a sammi spec round because it's just not worth it , people are underwhelmed with it's performance. Take for example the meteoric rise of the creedmoor , it doesn't do anything your 6.5-06 wont do but it's available and incredibly popular for a good reason.
Chikentikka
Well-Known Member
If its a stalking rifle they do alot more than that, if using for alot of target etc then yes its a sub 1k barrel
I agree Big Ears, I’ve been converted and am actually wondering what to do with my .308 now, I hardly use it. You can double that sub-300m part though. A heavy long for calibre 6.5 hunting bullet has got a much longer reach than 300m.
I’m just waiting for the fog to lift, then I’m off out the back to do some 600m and 700m drop tests after some minor load tweaks. Not a breath of wind, about 5°C, perfect.
Jolyon2112
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with being touchy Matey. Why don't you read a bit more? There's a Sh#t load of calibres that haven't been successful but doesn't mean theyre not a good option for UK deer. My point was a clear one and I don't take kindly to a stranger giving me advise about my knowledge of anything!
If you plan on upgrading/Changing the barrel on a 25-06, I'm surprised it's not more popular! Not complicated
tackb
Well-Known Member
Chikentikka
Well-Known Member
Dodgy,
Just for a giggle I have just compared the following:
6.5 Creedmoor 143 ELDX @ 2670 fps
My 6.5 Lapua 129 ABLR @ 2910 fps (my LR load)
6.5-284 143 ELD-X @ 3000 fps
At 700 meters 10mph 3 o'clock wind
6.5 Creedmoor, 165" drop, 35" drift, 895 ftLb
6.5 Lapua, 142" drop, 35" drift, 885 ftLb
6.5-284, 126" drop, 29" drift, 1193 ftLb
Now all three have an exceptional reputation for accuracy. You would have trouble arguing that any of them was best on that front.
Drop can be dialled pretty scientifically, so the drops become pretty irrelevant.
Wind drift is always the killer and the 6.5-284 is 6" and 20% better, you can't split the other two.
Energy delivered the 6.5-284 wins by about 300 ftLb's, 35%, but you pay for it with recoil.
There are horror stories about 6.5-284 barrel life but these tend to be from the match boys who run long hot shot strings. Whenever a hunter has one he seems to get more than 2000 rounds before the barrel starts deteriorating as the barrel isn't running the volume of strings and it's probably not loaded as hot. 2000 rounds hunting is very acceptable and a good 10 years worth for most of us. Hell, barrels are disposable anyway!
So why, apart from the availability of good factory ammo from Hornaday is the Creedmoor so admired? Don't get me wrong, I've tried it out to 900 yds and really enjoyed it - it's a great chambering, but I don't think it's better than the Lapua and I think both are probably inferior to the 6.5-284.
Nigel, try the numbers with the Creedmoor 143gr ELD-X at 2800fps please, that’s what me and Alan are using. A lot of the guys in the US are loading to high 2700s, low 2800s for hunting.
Did I say the Creedmoor was better than the 6.5 Lapua? Can’t remember doing so but anything is possible. Not in my post to Big Ears, I kept it generic and just said “6.5” because... well, that follows below.
It is a good question though. I think you have to go back to the genesis of the Creedmoor to understand why its so effective ballitically and commercially, what the original design brief was. Dennis de Mille gave Dave Emery at Hornady a list of requirements for his perfect high power competition cartridge:
The rest is here: http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=5826.0
In this list the most important factor for me is “much lower recoil than the .308”. Shooting prone in the bush in crappy conditions, I want as little recoil as possible. As for comparing recoil across the 6.5s, the 6.5-284 is around about 25% more, ish. I find recoil is the single most important factor in my field accuracy with my heavy rifle, if I can concentrate on the point of aim and environmental factors, and not on controlling a kicking bouncing rifle, I shoot better. So does Mr de Mille.
Also, I don’t need super high velocities to kill deer and goats out to 700m. My bullets perform perfectly in the typical 2300 to 1800fps window at the point of impact.
As for comparing the 6.5 Lapua, 6.5 CM, .260 Rem, 6.5x55 SE, there’s so little between them ballistics wise. I want the chamber dimensions to work with the latest long for calibre bullets, and the Creedmoor has an advantage there over the .260 in some rifles, maybe the 6.5x47 too but in all honesty I don’t know much about chambering at all. I want to use as heavy a hunting bullet as I can, something that will seal the deal at longer ranges.
But I think you’ve just got to go back to the original design brief, the need for the Creedmoor to be able succeed commercially. And it is the commercial smarts that have worked so favourably with the Creedmoor. The team that developed it knew they had a winner in terms of ballistics and efficiency, and they made it work within the .470” bolt / .308 dimensions and not a long action. They were very clever, they made all the right noises to all the right people as the Creedmoor was winning competitions left right and centre, commercially what’s not to like?
I stop listening when blokes go Creedmoor bashing just cos its the “latest fad” or whatever, it reveals a fundamental lack of understanding!
Did I say the Creedmoor was better than the 6.5 Lapua? Can’t remember doing so but anything is possible. Not in my post to Big Ears, I kept it generic and just said “6.5” because... well, that follows below.
It is a good question though. I think you have to go back to the genesis of the Creedmoor to understand why its so effective ballitically and commercially, what the original design brief was. Dennis de Mille gave Dave Emery at Hornady a list of requirements for his perfect high power competition cartridge:
- Superior ballistics. It needed to be as good as any safe hand loads being used in conventional high power competitions
- Pricing comparable to match grade .308
- Much lower recoil than a .308
- Standard .308 magazine length
- Not a barrel burner
- Loaded version and components readily available should you take this to a large market
- Recipe written on every box – avoid using proprietary powder
The rest is here: http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=5826.0
In this list the most important factor for me is “much lower recoil than the .308”. Shooting prone in the bush in crappy conditions, I want as little recoil as possible. As for comparing recoil across the 6.5s, the 6.5-284 is around about 25% more, ish. I find recoil is the single most important factor in my field accuracy with my heavy rifle, if I can concentrate on the point of aim and environmental factors, and not on controlling a kicking bouncing rifle, I shoot better. So does Mr de Mille.
Also, I don’t need super high velocities to kill deer and goats out to 700m. My bullets perform perfectly in the typical 2300 to 1800fps window at the point of impact.
As for comparing the 6.5 Lapua, 6.5 CM, .260 Rem, 6.5x55 SE, there’s so little between them ballistics wise. I want the chamber dimensions to work with the latest long for calibre bullets, and the Creedmoor has an advantage there over the .260 in some rifles, maybe the 6.5x47 too but in all honesty I don’t know much about chambering at all. I want to use as heavy a hunting bullet as I can, something that will seal the deal at longer ranges.
But I think you’ve just got to go back to the original design brief, the need for the Creedmoor to be able succeed commercially. And it is the commercial smarts that have worked so favourably with the Creedmoor. The team that developed it knew they had a winner in terms of ballistics and efficiency, and they made it work within the .470” bolt / .308 dimensions and not a long action. They were very clever, they made all the right noises to all the right people as the Creedmoor was winning competitions left right and centre, commercially what’s not to like?
I stop listening when blokes go Creedmoor bashing just cos its the “latest fad” or whatever, it reveals a fundamental lack of understanding!
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Sorry, Dodgy, I was running the numbers on the Precision Hunter factory 143 ELDX that we were using, It was chronegraphing at 2670 fps. 2800 is a different ball game. Running those numbers it's 149" drop, 33" drift and 1000 ftLb's. Pretty sure the Lapua would match it with a 143 ELDX if I had an 8 twist barrel.
As I said, I thought the Creedmoor was great, accurate, soft recoiling, a joy to shoot, but I still wouldn't rate it above the Lapua apart from the great factory ammo availability and I certainly would't rate it above the 6.5-284, which if shooting live things at 700 meters, not unusual in your part of the world, would be my preference. A bit less drift and more terminal energy so a bit more margin for error. The 6.5-284 kicks a bit more, but it's not as if you're shooing a Rem Mag or Win Mag. It's soft even compared to my 280AI which is hardly difficult to shoot straight.
The Creedmoor is a great chambering, but the marketing people have blown it up to be the holly grail and I'm not sure it really is. It's bloody good, but is it really that much better than everything else in 6.5mm?
As I said, I thought the Creedmoor was great, accurate, soft recoiling, a joy to shoot, but I still wouldn't rate it above the Lapua apart from the great factory ammo availability and I certainly would't rate it above the 6.5-284, which if shooting live things at 700 meters, not unusual in your part of the world, would be my preference. A bit less drift and more terminal energy so a bit more margin for error. The 6.5-284 kicks a bit more, but it's not as if you're shooing a Rem Mag or Win Mag. It's soft even compared to my 280AI which is hardly difficult to shoot straight.
The Creedmoor is a great chambering, but the marketing people have blown it up to be the holly grail and I'm not sure it really is. It's bloody good, but is it really that much better than everything else in 6.5mm?
No!
No, not that much better, just bloody good as you say. So good I’m sure it will be found in all sorts of interesting applications in the future, from budget Howas to special forces sniper rifles and who knows maybe some exclusive brands you’d never have thought possible. Part of its success is the way it has quickly become synonymous with success and performance, I suspect a lot is in the name. A very clever differentiation, the word Creedmoor. Historic, relevant, unique. One thing for sure - the sales numbers, new products chambered in 6.5CM and a strong presence on forums old and new - its here to stay now.
Factory Hornady 6.5 CM 140gn ELD Match are very slow @ circa 2650ftps from my 24" Blaser R8 barrel. They struggled to give a 1.5" grp.
With home loaded 143gn ELD-X, 2800fps is easy on RS60, and the sweet spot for that length barrel seems to be 2850-2875fps, which was also easy to achieve, with zero pressure signs.
Since the load development, the rifle has picked up 80-100fps on the same load, so I'll drop it back a bit, and keep it around 2875fps.
With home loaded 143gn ELD-X, 2800fps is easy on RS60, and the sweet spot for that length barrel seems to be 2850-2875fps, which was also easy to achieve, with zero pressure signs.
Since the load development, the rifle has picked up 80-100fps on the same load, so I'll drop it back a bit, and keep it around 2875fps.
I should say Nigel that I haven’t shot anything at 700m with my Creedmoor. Looking at the log book, 625m and 608m are the furthest (large nanny goats), one after the other, they both bang flopped. There were six 2 yr old spikers between 580m and 600m exactly, on the same hunt that I have posted about before. Of those three dropped on the spot, two staggered about for a few seconds and went down within 10-15 yards and the last one made about 30 or 40 yards IIRC.
Seven reds and two fallow have been taken between 245m and 465m, some of these I’ve posted here. One fallow ran quite far - straight downhill to deliver itself to the bike, 70m or more, brilliant planning... entirely my fault as I didn’t have enough windage for the stiffer breeze blowing further up the escarpment towards the animal’s position, and I struck it 2” behind the shoulder. That’s the furthest runner I’ve had for quite a while.
There’s been numerous goats in the 400s to mid 500s, shot from all angles from normal broadside to very steeply above and several from behind, shot through the abdomen and out through the front chest, instant death. The ELD-X just poleaxes them. In 6.5mm, a heavy for calibre ELD-X doesn’t need to be steaming along to kill effectively, it works very very well at quite modest terminal velocities.
Initially I set myself a 1800fps limit to ensure correct terminal performance. Hornady claim 1600fps but I gave myself some leeway after some discussion. I no longer concentrate so much on retained energy, it’s more about velocity of a given bullet because that is what governs the expansion and fragmentation of the bullet. As long as the bullet is expanding and fragmenting properly it has enough energy, and it will kill the animal. It will penetrate a soft skinned deer and expand fully as per design without any difficulty whatsoever at 1800fps. The ballistics say that”s a maximum range of ~675m.
To that end, a 6.5-284 is not really necessary for what I want to do at medium ranges. Its a great cartridge as long as the chambering is correct for the type of bullet you want to use, which not all of them are according to the little I’ve read about them. I think the fascination with velocity and energy is understandable, but enough velocity to get the bullet to work is... enough. A little bit more won’t make much difference at all at a given range, in fact as we know too much more can be quite detrimental to performance.
More velocity is only required when you want to go further, into the realm of proper long range, which I don’t do cos I’m not really good enough. More energy is only really required when you want to shoot a buffalo, a marauding hippo, or maybe a grizzly that’s running towards you with a keen sense of urgency! That’s why we love .375H&H, .45-70 Govt and the like. But for thin, soft skinned deers, you really don’t need a cruise missile, you need accuracy and dead drops and no need for a good dog!
Lateral is onto something with the RS60. As blokes start to experiment with the Creedmoor cartridge beyond the standard H4350 there are more and more reports of successful load development with other powders generating significantly improved velocity. I was talking this morning to my firearms dealer about returning my defective chrono and he told me about his recent exploits with the Creedmoor. He has switched to RL17, in his 24” Howa, RL17 is giving him close to 2900fps and 0.5MOA at 300m with 140gr ELD-M. I’ll be switching powder next batch, just to see what happens.
Seven reds and two fallow have been taken between 245m and 465m, some of these I’ve posted here. One fallow ran quite far - straight downhill to deliver itself to the bike, 70m or more, brilliant planning... entirely my fault as I didn’t have enough windage for the stiffer breeze blowing further up the escarpment towards the animal’s position, and I struck it 2” behind the shoulder. That’s the furthest runner I’ve had for quite a while.
There’s been numerous goats in the 400s to mid 500s, shot from all angles from normal broadside to very steeply above and several from behind, shot through the abdomen and out through the front chest, instant death. The ELD-X just poleaxes them. In 6.5mm, a heavy for calibre ELD-X doesn’t need to be steaming along to kill effectively, it works very very well at quite modest terminal velocities.
Initially I set myself a 1800fps limit to ensure correct terminal performance. Hornady claim 1600fps but I gave myself some leeway after some discussion. I no longer concentrate so much on retained energy, it’s more about velocity of a given bullet because that is what governs the expansion and fragmentation of the bullet. As long as the bullet is expanding and fragmenting properly it has enough energy, and it will kill the animal. It will penetrate a soft skinned deer and expand fully as per design without any difficulty whatsoever at 1800fps. The ballistics say that”s a maximum range of ~675m.
To that end, a 6.5-284 is not really necessary for what I want to do at medium ranges. Its a great cartridge as long as the chambering is correct for the type of bullet you want to use, which not all of them are according to the little I’ve read about them. I think the fascination with velocity and energy is understandable, but enough velocity to get the bullet to work is... enough. A little bit more won’t make much difference at all at a given range, in fact as we know too much more can be quite detrimental to performance.
More velocity is only required when you want to go further, into the realm of proper long range, which I don’t do cos I’m not really good enough. More energy is only really required when you want to shoot a buffalo, a marauding hippo, or maybe a grizzly that’s running towards you with a keen sense of urgency! That’s why we love .375H&H, .45-70 Govt and the like. But for thin, soft skinned deers, you really don’t need a cruise missile, you need accuracy and dead drops and no need for a good dog!
Lateral is onto something with the RS60. As blokes start to experiment with the Creedmoor cartridge beyond the standard H4350 there are more and more reports of successful load development with other powders generating significantly improved velocity. I was talking this morning to my firearms dealer about returning my defective chrono and he told me about his recent exploits with the Creedmoor. He has switched to RL17, in his 24” Howa, RL17 is giving him close to 2900fps and 0.5MOA at 300m with 140gr ELD-M. I’ll be switching powder next batch, just to see what happens.
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Blimey, it makes my 150m max high seat and usually, c.80m woodland stalking efforts look a bit tame! My 6.5 swede does make my .308 feel a bit redundant though, purely on recoil.
This has been a fascinating thread to see what you seasoned experts are up to, especially at range, but not for me, for now.
I'll continue to keep trying to get a close to the quarry as possible, knowing that, because of the efforts of others, all I need to worry about is the right bullet in the right place. Much appreciated guys.
Slowly it sounds as if a 308 is not even capable of getting the bullet to come out of the front of a barrel if one reads the wonders of the 6.5's. and yet at the F class competitions with a large rifle handicap for 308/FTR the good FTR shooters beat about half of the F-open entries if I look at the tables. Why is that? Just can't be. A friend of mine shoots goats in Mallorca for the Government, he used a 22" Polygon Barrelled 308 Howa Built by Roedale with a carbon stock. Standard distance was around 600m due to the hills with max at 900m. He now uses a 300wm and can stretch to well over 1000m. I think what Hornady did really well was offer good long range hunting ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor, it really makes the cartridge interesting but won't make it a 308 at shorter range. Experience has shown it just won't knock heavier animals with the authority that a 308 has, in most shoots in Germany they won't let you take part with a 6.5 (based on experience) also many who had given the 6.5's a go are going back to 30-06/308 etc.
I am looking forward to getting a build going with a creedmoor and looking forward to long range plinking as well as for hinds /calves to replace a 243. The US Navy did not replace the 308 sniper systems with 6.5 CM, they chose the 300wm for a reason. The 6.5CM has and will have a role in the military and rightly so but can't do it all.
edi
I am looking forward to getting a build going with a creedmoor and looking forward to long range plinking as well as for hinds /calves to replace a 243. The US Navy did not replace the 308 sniper systems with 6.5 CM, they chose the 300wm for a reason. The 6.5CM has and will have a role in the military and rightly so but can't do it all.
edi
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