Why do Birds of Prey deserve a god like status ? Is it sustainable ?

[Rake Aboot]

This is very true but then on purely humane grounds people kill foxes in a more ethical way, looking for a powerful and destructive bullet to instantly obliterate a fox BUT when it comes to deer its all about getting a lung shot with a good stout hunting bullet to preserve meat.

If someone shoots a fox and gets a runner for it to die 40m away its considered a bad shot or the wrong bullet but with a deer its fine, some people even spend thousands of pounds buying and training speciality dogs just for tracking deer that run off after being shot, even after you've stalked in to 50m to shoot it. However if you use a big heavy tactical rifle to "snipe" a deer from 300m and use a suitable bullet to drop it in it's tracks then that not ethical???

You’re actually getting that back to front.

 

[nun_hunter]

You’re actually getting that back to front.

How so? As VSS said deer are revered and held on a pedestal by stalkers and supposedly treated in the most humane way yet the most common shot placement is there to save meat rather than an instant kill. With foxes who are treated as vermin the aim is to kill them instantly with no regard to meat preservation.

 

[Cottis]

No animal is above or below that of another. Including humans. That is our biggest error. Not mismanaging other species but failing to manage ourselves. We are the biggest blight on the local flora and fauna bar none.

Or is that nature taking its course? It is a neverending debate really. If the strongest or most intelligent suceed in the animal kingdom, are we doing just that? Or have we come too far?

I think we all probably know the answer to that but we carry on our merry way thinking we are above our peers but in reality, we are all the problem to some degree. Some more than others but society and evolution has seen us realise way too much power and control. No idea how you get billions to cede that control but it probably needs doing in some way. Nature will probably find a way in the end and the landscape will be changed forever, just like it has been many times before we were walking about.

 

[Franchi Matt]

Hi guys

This will be a contentious issue. Just to be crystal clear-

1) I have never knowingly injured or harmed any bird of Prey

2) never will I do so.

3) I quite enjoy seeing them. They are pure killing machines at the top of their food chain.

Having established the above- I do wonder why they deserve such a god like status amongst so many ? Given their numbers are increasing considerably- will there ever be a place for strict numbers control ?

They certainly aren't our friends in the same way as domestic animals are......but perhaps its that we can bend them to our will a little that means we look on them favourably ?

Their numbers have been low historically and everyone roots for the underdog.

They don't typically attack livestock (Scotch eagles being the exception perhaps)- so aren't a problem ?

Am I missing something ?

And what would need to happen before their numbers would need to be controlled? If livestock is ever in danger I suppose. But I can't see it being popular- even in the shooting community?

My position is firmly your point number 3.

I'd rather see a flock of red kites than I would Jackdaws.

I spent my early years travelling Europe with my dad and was hooked on raptors.

They have my upmost respect at all times, seeing them fly and hearing their calls calms me.

 

[Bo Diddley]

There is a book called "Heaven In A Rage" quite old, I picked mine up in a 2nd handbook shop 20 years ago, it raises all the questions asked in this thread and more.
One of the tales told mentioned a man in an old tavern having a pint of ale, one night a rat crossed the floor and everyone picked up their sticks and had a go at striking the rat, the man that killed the rat with his stick was cheered and had a free pint on the house, awhile passed and his dog went to creep out from under the table and he stuck it with the same stick that killed the rat, everyone thought of him as the villain for striking the dog. Why do the feelings of the dog mean more than the life of a rat when life is the same for both of them?
The same book also talks about abattoirs, but I'll leave that for another day.

 

[Bo Diddley]

No animal is above or below that of another. Including humans. That is our biggest error. Not mismanaging other species but failing to manage ourselves. We are the biggest blight on the local flora and fauna bar none.

Or is that nature taking its course? It is a neverending debate really. If the strongest or most intelligent suceed in the animal kingdom, are we doing just that? Or have we come too far?

I think we all probably know the answer to that but we carry on our merry way thinking we are above our peers but in reality, we are all the problem to some degree. Some more than others but society and evolution has seen us realise way too much power and control. No idea how you get billions to cede that control but it probably needs doing in some way. Nature will probably find a way in the end and the landscape will be changed forever, just like it has been many times before we were walking about.

Very true words.. and when this clever monkey has become extinct I'm pretty sure another will come along at some point and start the wheel turning again.

 

[Franchi Matt]

They lay scotch eggs

I told my kids they grow on trees

 

[timbrayford]

When did Badgers suffer from a population crash Tim? I am 74 ,we have always had badgers and after 2 years culling we still have too many for the good of ground nesting/living wildlife.We have a noticeable void of small birds (bird flu ? ) but plenty of ( far too many) birds of prey and ravens by the dozen !! No one is bothered about small birds , a disgraceful state of affairs really.

I presume back in the late 1970s / early 1980s, if I recall correctly it was disease related - it will be in Hansard somewhere!

 

[Rake Aboot]

How so? As VSS said deer are revered and held on a pedestal by stalkers and supposedly treated in the most humane way yet the most common shot placement is there to save meat rather than an instant kill. With foxes who are treated as vermin the aim is to kill them instantly with no regard to meat preservation.

Almost every stalker I know shoots to drop the beast, thats the most important thing. Tracking them is a further nod to humane killing.
Foxes, they just let loose with whatevers in their hands in order to kill the thing at all costs, even if it dies tomorrow. Who the hell ever tracks a fox ?

 

[Lancaster]

Very true words.. and when this clever monkey who thinks that they are really clever, but aren't actually overly bright, has become extinct I'm pretty sure another will come along at some point and start the wheel turning again.

FIFY

 

[User00053]

Me in the snow, but called tracing when not shot, will return to place of hit in day time and look on a night before thermal made life simpler nothing worse than not picking a fox you know you have hit and is there to be found.
Choice for me between a deer and fox, morning or night fox gets shot, but thats just me.

 

[Beretta V]

Almost every stalker I know shoots to drop the beast, thats the most important thing. Tracking them is a further nod to humane killing.
Foxes, they just let loose with whatevers in their hands in order to kill the thing at all costs, even if it dies tomorrow. Who the hell ever tracks a fox ?

I look for anything I have wounded. I have respect and don’t want anything suffering.

Also I don’t want anti’s finding anything I have left behind for them to give bad press

 

[NullMac]

deer its all about getting a lung shot with a good stout hunting bullet to preserve meat

The recommended aiming point is to give the highest percentage killing shot rather than alternatives that are lower percentage shots and more likely to lead to a wounded beast departing the scene. There are more instantaneous kill points but you have to remember the average stalker does not do an awful lot of shooting so recommending other aim points may not be humane in the broadest sense. It's not about preserving meat.

However if you use a big heavy tactical rifle to "snipe" a deer from 300m and use a suitable bullet to drop it in it's tracks then that not ethical???

You don't need a rifle that is big, heavy or tactical to shoot deer at 300m, and that is hundreds of meters short of where sniping begins. Lots of deer shot up the hill at 300m and that is perfectly ethical, effective and humane.

 

[timbrayford]

Well said, do people ever think the RSPB will ever turn around and say mission accomplished we’re disbanding? It pays to push the lies, bops are popular with the general public house sparrows less so.

As far as I am aware bop numbers are at their highest since records began.

Yes, thriving on the releases of game birds and other wild creatures found in and around our game crops that both the RSPB & WJ so despise!

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Apex predators have godlike status for one reason only, they are responsible for filling the coffers of animal charities. No one seems to give a **** about sparrows, or stone loach or eels. That photo of a seal cub raised more money than Save the Children, & spawned god knows how many industries. Seal Patrol, Seal Watch Seal trips Seal vaccines, & of Coarse that one hit wonder,........Seal.

Yes that's v true. There's more money saving some animals than others for sure.

They sit there for hours picking off ground nesters. All the larks and meadow pipets get snaffled up
A nest of baby rabbits, no chance.
Brown crows they are.

Yup fair enough.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

To be honest it is the same with various game species as well. If I injure a deer and it needs a follow up shot I am very disappointed with myself and it sticks with me for weeks. Whilst if i prick a pheasant on a driven day I won’t think of it beyond the next drive. Hypocritical, yes absolutely. But for some reason deer have an elevation in terms of apparent sentience and moral worth when compared to a pheasant in my eyes.

I suppose we can relate to a deer a little closer than we can a bird. Horses have been our friends for millenia and we have had a relationship with hearding livestock for 1000s of years too. A deer isn't *that* far off a horse or cow etc.

A game bird, however, as well as being percieved as less inteligent, have never been our friends.

You’re actually getting that back to front.

I don't see how. Many people shoot fox with a 223. But we shoot larger deer species- which may weigh 10x as much- with a bullet just 50% more powerful. And an expanding bullet- not a highly destructive exploding bullet.

If instant humane death was the top priority for deer- above all else- we would use more powerful guns with exploding bullets to turn their inners into soup.

Thats not to say that we are not humane to deer. But meat preservation is a factor for sure.

My position is firmly your point number 3.

I'd rather see a flock of red kites than I would Jackdaws.

I spent my early years travelling Europe with my dad and was hooked on raptors.

They have my upmost respect at all times, seeing them fly and hearing their calls calms me.

Hmmmmmm- I'm sure you're not alone. But why ?

And comparing kites to jackdaws is one thing. But kites to other bird species ? Kites vs lapwings ? Kites vs swallows ? Hmmmmm

Almost every stalker I know shoots to drop the beast, thats the most important thing. Tracking them is a further nod to humane killing.
Foxes, they just let loose with whatevers in their hands in order to kill the thing at all costs, even if it dies tomorrow. Who the hell ever tracks a fox ?

Agreed. It makes me v sad. I have had a bad hit on a fox once with a 22lr- never again. Only ever used 223 since.

 

[Franchi Matt]

I suppose we can relate to a deer a little closer than we can a bird. Horses have been our friends for millenia and we have had a relationship with hearding livestock for 1000s of years too. A deer isn't *that* far off a horse or cow etc.

A game bird, however, as well as being percieved as less inteligent, have never been our friends.



I don't see how. Many people shoot fox with a 223. But we shoot larger deer species- which may weigh 10x as much- with a bullet just 50% more powerful. And an expanding bullet- not a highly destructive exploding bullet.

If instant humane death was the top priority for deer- above all else- we would use more powerful guns with exploding bullets to turn their inners into soup.

Thats not to say that we are not humane to deer. But meat preservation is a factor for sure.



Hmmmmmm- I'm sure you're not alone. But why ?

And comparing kites to jackdaws is one thing. But kites to other bird species ? Kites vs lapwings ? Kites vs swallows ? Hmmmmm



Agreed. It makes me v sad. I have had a bad hit on a fox once with a 22lr- never again. Only ever used 223 since.

But why? But why not?

 

[Dunwaters]

Because nature only works when it is in perfect balance. In the UK most of the natural habitat following the last ice age has been cleared and many species have been eradicated. Yes nature can find a balance but only at a loss of biodiversity, why would you want more species extinct?

I have no idea who first coined the phrase” balance of nature” but whoever it was was was an idiot, theres no balance, never has been and never will be without intelligent management.
Left to its own devices nature pivots wildly from feast to famine and back again in what may or may not be cycles.
Nature is constantly in a state of flux and transition, it is only stable when we interfere and manage it for our own uses over a prolonged period.
Grouse moors would be a good example, left to their own devices they’d transition to woodland, as would open fields.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

I have no idea who first coined the phrase” balance of nature” but whoever it was was was an idiot, theres no balance, never has been and never will be without intelligent management.
Left to its own devices nature pivots wildly from feast to famine and back again in what may or may not be cycles.
Nature is constantly in a state of flux and transition, it is only stable when we interfere and manage it for our own uses over a prolonged period.
Grouse moors would be a good example, left to their own devices they’d transition to woodland, as would open

I have no idea who first coined the phrase” balance of nature” but whoever it was was was an idiot, theres no balance, never has been and never will be without intelligent management.
Left to its own devices nature pivots wildly from feast to famine and back again in what may or may not be cycles.
Nature is constantly in a state of flux and transition, it is only stable when we interfere and manage it for our own uses over a prolonged period.
Grouse moors would be a good example, left to their own devices they’d transition to woodland, as would open fields.

Exactly thank you for agreeing.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

But why? But why not?

Why not ? Well the irrationality of putting some species higher in the pecking order than others.

You can't tell me you can relate to a bird of Prey more than you can a crow. A crow is far smarter. And neither are as relatable as a dog or cat.

They are beautiful. But so is a lot of nature. I can't look away from a jackdaws eyes personally. Such intelligence.