Why is the BDS not relevant?

Didn't even see the survey.

BDS is a charity for those with an interest in deer and deer welfare, not just those who shoot them.

If I never shot another deer with a rifle I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but I never see myself losing the interest in deer. From that perspective BDS is ideal, and they are the very last organisation that I would cease to support. They offer active involvement and support for research into deer, and the work they do in educating joe public about deer is excellent, particularly at a local level. I attended - and enjoyed - their recent virtual AGM, and I look forward to each issue of Deer magazine. My one regret is that the Wessex branch meetings are too far away to conveniently attend.

Other than GWCT, the other shooting and country sports organisations are much of a muchness IMHO. If you want insurance for your hobby, or to read about the latest gizmo, just pick the cheapest.
 
I am a member lof the BDS and only the BDS as I am interested in ......you guessed it Deer. Deer research, management, stalking etc. I don't do any other form of shooting and probably wouldn't if I couldn't stalk deer.
So the BDS for me is all I'm interested in.
Dont remember see in the poll either but maybe I did as it was that unremarkable.
 
Thanks everyone. The comments reflect my thinking. I want to continue membership because I enjoy Deer Bytes and respect the research they do. I enjoy my deer and an organisation that focuses on their welfare I think I should support.

However, I need shooting insurance and they don't offer it as part of the membership fee, they don't have a legal department and they will not fight for my license should I need them to. If I had to pick just one organisation this would be a major negative to choosing BDS.

Apart from GWCT I'm not a fan of any of the other shooting organisations. I don't like politicians at the best of times and too many are behaving like them.

Trying to thin out the memberships at the moment but it's not easy to balance "doing the right thing" with the insurance requirements.
 
We ran a poll amongst those on SD earlier today. Only 20% appear to be members of the British Deer Society.

So why is the BDS not relevant to 80% of us? Or what have they done to upset us?
I pay a membership to the BASC as it is the only way to get our voice out there, don’t need the insurance ive got commercial insurance it’s my way of supporting a fight back - that’s it , The BDS I support as much as I can as I consider them a truer data gatherer for us and the government than anyone else and they support deer management in a positive way, we need all of this to fight our corner

The NRA I also pay a membership because I shoot on the military ranges and my home club BUT I was very close to chucking that in by the way they have treated the British Sporting Rifle Club at Bisley, I think they are a disgrace

Having said all that, everyone really needs to support our shooting, it’s under serious attacks from many anti shooting and animal welfare groups, if there is ever a time to join something this is definitely the right time before it’s too late, once we lose something you can guarantee it won’t be coming back
 
BDS are concerned with deer and the dissemination of information about them and their welfare, not the expectations of some people, the ’whats in it for me’ brigade.

It was ever thus, and should remain so.

Life membership some thirty years ago proved to be a sound decision, but I agree with K’s appraisal of the token card, which may as well not be issued, not that it is anything of real importance.

100% in agreement with this , I never took life membership but have bsen a member for 36 years and hopefully will be
for a few more.
BDS is not just for stalkers but for all who have an interest in deer whatever that interest may be, and in my opinion
that is no bad thing
 
Having spent 17 years in the management of the BDS from the late 80s until the early "noughties" I feel the need to respond. Like @Freeforester I am a life member having been signed up the the late Brigadier Dick Proudman. I was the national Treasurer when the Charity Commissioners instructed the Society to cease giving members a benefit in the form of insurance. From memory that was in about 1988 or 89. It has always been a Research, Education and Training charity. The Research, like GWCT though on a lesser scale, has always been important. Public education similarly and the Training has in part helped fund the other two.

Whilst never explicitly pro-stalking it was always at the forefront of our thinking and action that good deer management and welfare is bound up with both ethical stalking and a healthy venison market. Therefore we did all we could to support others by making the bullets for them to fire at government or the antis. It was mildly galling to be shafted by BASC on training, (manuals and course fees) and never to be given credit, even privately, when we had provided information for them to use.

At the time, and in the aftermath, of both Hungerford and Dunblane, all the Society submissions were for the private use of firearms and for no further restrictions with the single exception of semi-automatic rifles where we wished to retain their use for the disabled and industrially injured. We did indulge in lobbying, but quietly, as the Constitution forbids the Society from being pro or anti legal fieldsports. In this our Patron, past Presidents, and past Chairmen were all instrumental in getting different government ministers at differing times to listen to reason. Mostly it worked. I shall not cite examples on here, but can think of examples involving Europe, Westminster and Holyrood, as well as the government in the Republic of Ireland.

We do all need to support this work and to continue so to do. The original question was "This is the BDS not relevant?" I say it is hugely relevant, working for the benefit of deer (and stalkers) and that we should all support its efforts going forward.

PS I also missed the poll - sorry @NigelM
 
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Trying to thin out the memberships at the moment but it's not easy to balance "doing the right thing" with the insurance requirements.
It’s tough because they all overlap yet focus on different things. For me it is:

GWCT and BDS. Insurance available from both, either by GWCT Premium membership or as an add-on to BDS membership

NRA to use the ranges (and insurance included)

Angling Trust because no-one else takes polluters to court on anglers’ behalf

Wild Trout Trust because of the practical work and advice they offer for wild trout habitat.

Salmon and Trout Conservation UK because no-one else seems to be raising awareness and fighting against intensive open-cage feed-lot salmon farming and it’s catastrophic environmental impact
 
I recall well the weasel words said to, and quoted by, Douglas Hogg that emanated from the Chairman BDS regarding self-loading rifles for stalking and despite what may be claimed now did NOT as far as I recall offer any support for disabled shooters retaining the right to own and use self-loading rifles.

If there be any doubt I still have and will quote again from Hansard that the BDS did not consider necessary or even desirable the such be the case.

Hogg saying this: "The latter made the point very plainly that he needs his guns for deer shooting. He is not—and this is the point that I am making—supported by the Chairman of the British Deer Society."
 
I recall well the weasel words said to, and quoted by, Douglas Hogg that emanated from the Chairman BDS regarding self-loading rifles for stalking and despite what may be claimed now did NOT as far as I recall offer any support for disabled shooters retaining the right to own and use self-loading rifles.

If there be any doubt I still have and will quote again from Hansard that the BDS did not consider necessary or even desirable the such be the case.

Hogg saying this: "The latter made the point very plainly that he needs his guns for deer shooting. He is not—and this is the point that I am making—supported by the Chairman of the British Deer Society."
Pretty hard to argue that you need a self loading rifle to shoot deer when it is self evident that you do not!
You seem to be claiming that the BDS was arguing against ownership of self-loading rifles. Perhaps they could have been unequivocal and stated that a deer probably doesn’t care what type of rifle it is shot with, but that still isn’t the same thing as arguing against ownership of a specific type of rifle. BDS isn’t a shooting org, it’s a deer welfare charity - and this wasn’t a deer welfare issue, which the then Chairman as good as said.
 
Hector Monroe had asked if disabled people, such as my late friend Clifford Owen wounded in Normandy in 1944, would be allowed to retain the right to use self-loading rifles to shoot deer. And he and many other could not shoot deer with a bolt action as they could no longer manipulate the bolt. The reply from the Chairman of the BDS sank that. And, as you say, as a deer welfare organisation what business was it of BDS as to what rifle was, or was not used, as long as of legal calibre. The reply chose not to maintain that position but went beyond to be condemnatory.
 
Hector Monroe had asked if disabled people, such as my late friend Clifford Owen wounded in Normandy in 1944, would be allowed to retain the right to use self-loading rifles to shoot deer. And he and many other could not shoot deer with a bolt action as they could no longer manipulate the bolt. The reply from the Chairman of the BDS sank that. And, as you say, as a deer welfare organisation what business was it of BDS as to what rifle was, or was not used, as long as of legal calibre. The reply chose not to maintain that position but went beyond to be condemnatory.
Fair enough, you know the details better than I. But I maintain that the failure lies with the shooting orgs not to push for an exemption for disabled veterans, not with a deer welfare charity.
 
Hector Monroe had asked if disabled people, such as my late friend Clifford Owen wounded in Normandy in 1944, would be allowed to retain the right to use self-loading rifles to shoot deer. And he and many other could not shoot deer with a bolt action as they could no longer manipulate the bolt. The reply from the Chairman of the BDS sank that. And, as you say, as a deer welfare organisation what business was it of BDS as to what rifle was, or was not used, as long as of legal calibre. The reply chose not to maintain that position but went beyond to be condemnatory.
didnt this all happen 33 years ago. hardly current affairs
 
Hector Monroe had asked if disabled people, such as my late friend Clifford Owen wounded in Normandy in 1944, would be allowed to retain the right to use self-loading rifles to shoot deer. And he and many other could not shoot deer with a bolt action as they could no longer manipulate the bolt. The reply from the Chairman of the BDS sank that. And, as you say, as a deer welfare organisation what business was it of BDS as to what rifle was, or was not used, as long as of legal calibre. The reply chose not to maintain that position but went beyond to be condemnatory.

You clearly have a strong opinion on this, which you’re absolutely entitled to. However I believe you're being a little unfair on two grounds.

First, BDS was not responsible for the disabled losing the right to retain self-loading rifles. The debate at the time was not just about deer stalking, it covered all shooting disciplines, including both target shooting and practical rifle. The arguments against the exemption were extensively debated, which you can see by reviewing the comments at the time from both Houses.

For example the debate in the House of Commons here: Grant of Co-Terminous Firearm and Shot Gun Certificates

It is also interesting reading the comments once the Bill moved to the House of Lords.

Lord Hailsham - himself disabled and who served in the desert campaign in the Second World War - said during the debate:

"Surely one has to balance this limited and restricted personal private hardship [the use of self loading rifles because of disability] against the greater public interest which demands that SLRs are too dangerous to be held by private individuals lest they should find their way by theft into the wrong hands.

Moreover, the amendment leads us into an almost incredible degree of absurdity because it says that before one can take advantage of the amendment one must be disabled to the extent that one cannot use any kind of authorisable weapon. In other words, one cannot even use a little pistol. One has to be as disabled as that. Then, when one can take advantage of the amendment the only advantage one gets is that one will have something one may not want; namely, a self-loading rifle. If one cannot even use the pistol one can get the advantage provided by the amendment, but the only sort of weapon one is then allowed to have, as of right, is a self-loading rifle. That seems to me to be an absurd assertion. "

Or the Earl of Radnor:

"I sincerely believe that, for the greater good, the very few people who have been mentioned who will be unable to use the bolt on a rifle and who need a four-shot automatic rifle of some sort must, like many of us, turn away from that pastime and sport. "

Or Baroness Philips:

"However, I seriously suggest that one should never try to introduce [disability] exemption clauses into such a serious Bill. The Government have had the courage to introduce the Bill—and it needs courage to bring in such legislation. If only a handful of disabled people are involved, for heaven's sake, let them take up some other sport that they will equally enjoy."

Or Lord Nelson:

"No one disputes that we all have sympathy for the disabled. Why, oh why do they have to be used in this way? There is no question but that some disabled people shoot. However, no one seems to have considered the other side of the argument. Many disabled people support the Bill. What is their reaction to their name or disability being used as a reason to keep self-loading rifles for a certain section of the public?"

Or Earl Ferrers:

"I ask your Lordships to consider that if the amendment were to be accepted one might well have people attending a shooting exercise where a disabled person can use a self-loading rifle but the next door person, who used to have a self-loading rifle, finds that he cannot. That person will say, "You, although you are disabled, can use this. I, although I am fully able, cannot use it."

The argument stands logic on its head. I do not believe that the point is sustainable. If such weapons are in the hands of disabled people, others will borrow them and others will steal them. The weapons will be in circulation. The whole point of this part of the legislation is to put such weapons out of circulation. For a number of reasons I do not believe that one can make a blanket exemption for disabled or handicapped shooters."

I could go on, and on, the point being that the arguments against the disabled retaining the right to owning self-loading rifles were far broader than just deer stalking. Holding the BDS responsible is, in my view, flawed at best.

Second, the letter you refer to was in response to an amendment proposed by Sir Hector Monro (see CONDITIONS ATTACHING TO THE POSSESSION OF SELF-LOADING RIFLES (Hansard, 23 May 1988)).

The amendment reads as follows (my underlining):

'No firearm certificate shall authorise a person to possess, purchase or acquire a self-loading or pump-action rifle to which section 5(2) (ab) of the principal Act applies unless that person—
  • (a) has held a firearms certificate for at least three years, and
  • (b) has been a full member of a rifle club for at least three years, and
  • (c) is a member of a club which is affiliated to the National Rifle Association or the United Kingdom Practical Shooting Association and which has been approved by the Secretary of State as a club suitable for target shooting with self-loading rifles, and has satisfactorily completed a course of service rifle or practical rifle shooting approved by either of these Associations, or
  • (d) has a reason to possess such a gun because of disability or participation in vermin control or deer-culling.'.—[Sir Hector Monro]
Note that the last point covers the use of self-loading rifles by those with a disability OR their use for participation in vermin control or deer-culling. My own opinion is that conflating the two was very poor drafting, and almost inevitably led to the subsequent defeat.

At any rate, BDS was responding to Hector Monro on the question of the use of self-loading rifles for deer culling.

As Douglas Hogg said - again, my underlining - (Prohibited Weapons And Ammunition - Wednesday 25 May 1988 - Hansard - UK Parliament):

The chairman of that [British Deer] society wrote to my hon. Friend the member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and dealt in some detail with my hon. Friend's assertion that a self-loading rifle is necessary for the killing of deer. He wrote:

"I have taken great trouble to find out the extent to which these rifles"— that is to say, self-loading rifles— "are used for deer management. I have spoken to the chairman of the Forestry Commission and the chairman of the Red Deer Commission, both of whom are happy with the British Deer Society position, which is that there is no heavyweight argument for these weapons to be used for deer management."

"As far as I can discover, it is simply not true that many roe stalkers throughout the United Kingdom use five shot, self-loading rifles. Even if they do the society would argue that the art of deer management is to stalk into the beast that you wish to kill and place one well-aimed shot to kill that animal immediately."

Whilst you may believe that use of a self-loading rifle has no bearing on deer welfare, which is the legitimate concern of the BDS, nowhere do I see in the above anything that implies whether "disabled people, such as my late friend Clifford Owen wounded in Normandy in 1944, would be allowed to retain the right to use self-loading rifles to shoot deer." I can't find any reference to BDS commenting on the use of self-loading rifles by the disabled - perhaps you can - but in my view that argument had been lost elsewhere.

I feel I should mention that there is an alternative, albeit cynical, reading of the way the amendment was drafted, and that is the possiblity that it was done deliberately. This was in fact raised by Douglas Hogg in the same debate, who said "The question about women and the disabled is a stalking horse for the eight-shot Garand". Hector Monro was pushing for the Garand to be included because it was "commonly used by the target shooting fraternity" (for source see my first link above). It was, at least in part, because of this inability to decide on the number of rounds that a self-loading rifle might be restricted to that led to the subsequent defeat.

Smarter drafting of the amendment may have resulted in a different outcome, but that is well and truly water under the bridge now.
 
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'I feel I should mention that there is an alternative, albeit cynical, reading of the way the amendment was drafted, and that is the possiblity that it was done deliberately. This was in fact raised by Douglas Hogg in the same debate, who said "The question about women and the disabled is a stalking horse for the eight-shot Garand". Hector Monro was pushing for the Garand to be included because it was "commonly used by the target shooting fraternity" (for source see my first link above). It was, at least in part, because of this inability to decide on the number of rounds that a self-loading rifle might be restricted to that led to the subsequent defeat.'

same as the more recent mars rifle debates them? passing reference to disablesd shooters but realy just about slightly odd blokes that want to keep there toys
 
'I feel I should mention that there is an alternative, albeit cynical, reading of the way the amendment was drafted, and that is the possiblity that it was done deliberately. This was in fact raised by Douglas Hogg in the same debate, who said "The question about women and the disabled is a stalking horse for the eight-shot Garand". Hector Monro was pushing for the Garand to be included because it was "commonly used by the target shooting fraternity" (for source see my first link above). It was, at least in part, because of this inability to decide on the number of rounds that a self-loading rifle might be restricted to that led to the subsequent defeat.'

same as the more recent mars rifle debates them? passing reference to disablesd shooters but realy just about slightly odd blokes that want to keep there toys
And that I’m alright jack attitude is what will be the slow demise of shooting and private gun ownership, even if it’s not your thing it all needs supporting.
 
As said now a long time ago and those directly responsible no longer are in the roles they held then.

But it does still rancour, yes.

The main reason for my response was to reinforce that whilst it may be an excellent deer welfare body it must be kept in mind that the BDS isn't (and as others have said) a "shooting association" nor a "stalking club" and I hope those that do join BDS do so in full knowledge of that.

The BDS is for good or bad what it is and not what some that join appear naively to believe it to be.

Thanks to all for the good tempered discussion.
 
In fairness to ES and to take nothing away from WG’s well considered and researched post, the underlying concern that may indeed have nothing to do with the BDS is that of where does one draw the line on the following and wider implications of the underlined:

“Surely one has to balance this limited and restricted personal private hardship [the use of self loading rifles because of disability] against the greater public interest which demands that SLR (rifles) are too dangerous to be held by private individuals lest they should find their way by theft into the wrong hands.


K
 
I
As said now a long time ago and those directly responsible no longer are in the roles they held then.

But it does still rancour, yes.

The main reason for my response was to reinforce that whilst it may be an excellent deer welfare body it must be kept in mind that the BDS isn't (and as others have said) a "shooting association" nor a "stalking club" and I hope those that do join BDS do so in full knowledge of that.

The BDS is for good or bad what it is and not what some that join appear naively to believe it to be.

Thanks to all for the good tempered discussion.
I can categorically state that the then Chairman BDS, Hugh Oliver-Bellasis, was absolutely furious that he had been misquoted in Parliament. He had always maintained that disabled and industrially injured should retain the use of self-loading firearms. Your rancour/anger is misdirected. The Society remains what it has always been, a Research, Education and Training animal welfare charity BUT one which sees that welfare as being bound up with ethical management and stalking, (safe, humane and legal in that priority order), with a healthy venison market supporting the industry.
 
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