Why the Uk is a better country to own a gun in than the United States
- Thread starter Blaser Ash
- Start date
I suppose it depends to an extent on whether your interests lie in owning guns or shooting deer. Personally, I have no interest in owning lots of firearms (although even here in the UK someone can own as many as they want. There is no upper limit imposed on the number of guns an individual can hold) and I don't find our firearms legislation too onerous. Illogical maybe, but not onerous.
However, I am very interested in shooting deer! The thought of a "tag" system similar to the US fills me with dread! It would be awful to be restricted in that way! Currently, I can shoot anywhere in the UK (subject to having permission from the landowner or the person holding the shooting rights, of course) without having to apply to the state for a permit, and I can shoot as many deer as I like. For which I only need one or two rifles.
And, contrary to what some have suggested above, it is not expensive to shoot deer in the UK. It can be, if you want to pay for a special experience with a guide, but no doubt hunting guides expect to be paid in the US too. But there's plenty of shooting to be had in the UK for next-to-nothing or even for free. And no ranger breathing down your neck, either.
And sales of carcasses to offset costs.
I've watched a number of videos of hunting on public land in the US, and it looks a pretty poor show to me.
I suspect the public land hunting arrangements in Australia or New Zealand might be more to my taste, but I don't know that much about it.
However, I am very interested in shooting deer! The thought of a "tag" system similar to the US fills me with dread! It would be awful to be restricted in that way! Currently, I can shoot anywhere in the UK (subject to having permission from the landowner or the person holding the shooting rights, of course) without having to apply to the state for a permit, and I can shoot as many deer as I like. For which I only need one or two rifles.
And, contrary to what some have suggested above, it is not expensive to shoot deer in the UK. It can be, if you want to pay for a special experience with a guide, but no doubt hunting guides expect to be paid in the US too. But there's plenty of shooting to be had in the UK for next-to-nothing or even for free. And no ranger breathing down your neck, either.
And sales of carcasses to offset costs.
I've watched a number of videos of hunting on public land in the US, and it looks a pretty poor show to me.
I suspect the public land hunting arrangements in Australia or New Zealand might be more to my taste, but I don't know that much about it.
Cootmeurer
Well-Known Member
Our license and tag system is a must. It’s been a while since the last time I compiled the data, but at least half of our states EACH have more licensed hunters than the entirety of gun owners in the UK. Your system would change dramatically if your numbers of shooters/stalkers quadrupled.
Further - your system is very restrictive in the allowed methods of take. Deer is center fire rifle, other game is shotgun and or a 22 rim fire.
In our system, again my choice, I can hunt deer with rifle (including semi automatic), shotgun, muzzleloader/blackpowder, suitable air rifle, bow, crossbow, and in some locations spear.
Further - your system is very restrictive in the allowed methods of take. Deer is center fire rifle, other game is shotgun and or a 22 rim fire.
In our system, again my choice, I can hunt deer with rifle (including semi automatic), shotgun, muzzleloader/blackpowder, suitable air rifle, bow, crossbow, and in some locations spear.
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
I'd rather have the wilderness and choice of game animals to hunt, and the larger sizes of animals and more meat than shooting loads of fallow just to sell for a pittance to the game dealer (or become a butcher and shopkeeper to sell them).
I'd rather have the right and freedom to head out on to public land for shooting practice and hunting rather than the whole country being privately owned.
100% I would rather go into a gun shop and tell a clueless shop clerk what I want (after all I spent long enough researching and deciding what I want) rather than the more common UK gun shop where the owner, or worse some old boy propping up the counter try and tell me what I should be buying.
I'd rather have the right and freedom to head out on to public land for shooting practice and hunting rather than the whole country being privately owned.
100% I would rather go into a gun shop and tell a clueless shop clerk what I want (after all I spent long enough researching and deciding what I want) rather than the more common UK gun shop where the owner, or worse some old boy propping up the counter try and tell me what I should be buying.
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
If you were hunting deer for your own consumption and enjoyment rather than providing meat for your butchery business I'm sure you'd have a different view. If you didn't have that business outlet for deer would you still want to shoot as many? How much 'interest' is there in shooting fallow after fallow in the same conditions unless you're making money out of them?
For me the interest in shooting is being outside in different places and getting meat. I can do that by just shooting deer here but it would certainly be more interesting in the USA with the much more varied terrain and various species.
The USA is clearly a better place for a hunter and adventurer to live, the UK is better if you just want to pop out for a couple of hours and kill a load of deer you can sell. Different mindsets.
Money isn't the driver. It never has been for me. But I've always been passionate about supplying people with meat from animals that I've killed and processed myself. That is something I've never legally been able to do with my sheep and cattle, so deer tick a massive box for me. I'm very happy to be shooting and butchering deer. Being able to sell venison is the icing on the cake, but even if I had to give it away I'd still enjoy doing it. It's creating the end product, from start to finish, and supplying people who appreciate it, that's important to me. If I couldn't do that I doubt I'd be so interested in shooting deer. But as it is, it is very much about enjoyment and providing meat for my family and as many other people as possible. Being restricted to just a few deer each year just wouldn't cut it for me, neither is there any attraction in owning a multitude of firearms.
While I would love the opportunity to experience hunting abroad, from a day-to-day perspective the situation in the UK at present suits me just fine.
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
It’s possible to shoot deer with a black powder muzzleloader legally here as well………
Speaking specifically, the title claims the UK is a better country to own guns than the US. Which it patently isn't. For a start, obtaining and keeping guns in the US is less fraught and easier to do. As for hand guns, the answer is a slam dunk. I suspect that there are more choices when considering buying guns in the US too.
Using them is also easier in the US in many ways too. But perhaps (and only perhaps) using them to hunt/stalk specifically is where the best place argument becomes more even and I'd guess the answer to that is more dependant on the individual. There's a good few folk from America that come over here to stalk and there's also a good few that go across the pond in the opposite direction to hunt.
As with most things, it ain't just black and white.
Using them is also easier in the US in many ways too. But perhaps (and only perhaps) using them to hunt/stalk specifically is where the best place argument becomes more even and I'd guess the answer to that is more dependant on the individual. There's a good few folk from America that come over here to stalk and there's also a good few that go across the pond in the opposite direction to hunt.
As with most things, it ain't just black and white.
I know freedom is scary. We get bump stocks back now thanks to SCOTUS. I don’t own one and never have but I also don’t pay someone else’s ammo bill so I don’t care if they have one. FRTs and braces will be next. Our gun culture is only a problem for 2 minority groups in the US. Take them out of our statistics and we are at the bottom of the chart for developed countries. I just said the quiet part out loud.
Please see my comments in red above in the quote box.
Blaser Ash
Active Member
You are correct Ken, that was too broad a statement. I should have said the UK is still a great country for hunters. I accept pistol shooters were shat on. I was one of them. Target shooters too are at the mercy of the rules and regs guys who run the clubs. Nevertheless, there are still some good rifle ranges around - both formal and informal and a lot of clay pigeon clubs.
Certainly, if your certificate includes deer, boar or vermin control, I still maintain this is a great country to live in for the reasons given at the start, but mostly because of the quantity of game and vermin in the UK which certainly trumps the parts of the states I have visited.
I guess I’m a glass half full guy in a country wondering if the glass is already empty.
The only thing that really springs to mind that the UK does better is higher general standards of gun safety.
I will say that the committed US gun owner is just as skilled and safe as the average UK owner, maybe more so considering the practice opportunities.
But one thing that the barriers to entry in the UK system do is prevent the casual, disinterested gun owner from being a thing. You don't 'just happen' to own a gun in the UK. It's a massive pain in the ass that takes a load of time and effort. In the US, you can pick up a firearm on a whim, at least by comparison.
This does lead to a situation where you have a large number of frankly incompetent gun owners. They don't shoot much, they haven't had any real training, they might not have friends who can show them the basics. But they picked up a pistol because of some 'crime wave' news story and every now and again they get the urge to see if the thing works.
I see this a lot at the public range where I go practice my pistol shooting. People wandering in with their buddies to have a plink, not shooting very well (which is fine), but also casually turning around mid session and sweeping their neighbours, doing stupid stuff, dropping loaded firearms, accidentally shooting the ceiling through negligent discharges and the like.
In the UK you can't really do that. Try it on a UK range and the first time you'll get a bollocking, the second time you'll be banned from the facility, if you even get a second chance at all... In the US, especially on public ranges, it seems pretty common. The RO's will call people on it if they notice, but they're public ranges, there's not many staff, and there's not all that much they can do. Plus it seems more 'normal' to the gun culture over here than in the UK.
There's been a few times I called my session early and headed out because this stuff made me feel unsafe. Not malice, just incompetence. First time I did it I swapped ranges, but I've seen it at all the facilities I've visited now, excepting the ones that require membership and a single public range I went to in Fort Worth, TX, which was extremely professional.
On balance I think I still prefer the US system, I like playing at 2 gun and I like avoiding all the drama of the FAC system. But given a choice I'll always go to a members only facility where this stuff is more carefully monitored. I can't say I'm shocked at how many accidents there are involving firearms over here either.
I will say that the committed US gun owner is just as skilled and safe as the average UK owner, maybe more so considering the practice opportunities.
But one thing that the barriers to entry in the UK system do is prevent the casual, disinterested gun owner from being a thing. You don't 'just happen' to own a gun in the UK. It's a massive pain in the ass that takes a load of time and effort. In the US, you can pick up a firearm on a whim, at least by comparison.
This does lead to a situation where you have a large number of frankly incompetent gun owners. They don't shoot much, they haven't had any real training, they might not have friends who can show them the basics. But they picked up a pistol because of some 'crime wave' news story and every now and again they get the urge to see if the thing works.
I see this a lot at the public range where I go practice my pistol shooting. People wandering in with their buddies to have a plink, not shooting very well (which is fine), but also casually turning around mid session and sweeping their neighbours, doing stupid stuff, dropping loaded firearms, accidentally shooting the ceiling through negligent discharges and the like.
In the UK you can't really do that. Try it on a UK range and the first time you'll get a bollocking, the second time you'll be banned from the facility, if you even get a second chance at all... In the US, especially on public ranges, it seems pretty common. The RO's will call people on it if they notice, but they're public ranges, there's not many staff, and there's not all that much they can do. Plus it seems more 'normal' to the gun culture over here than in the UK.
There's been a few times I called my session early and headed out because this stuff made me feel unsafe. Not malice, just incompetence. First time I did it I swapped ranges, but I've seen it at all the facilities I've visited now, excepting the ones that require membership and a single public range I went to in Fort Worth, TX, which was extremely professional.
On balance I think I still prefer the US system, I like playing at 2 gun and I like avoiding all the drama of the FAC system. But given a choice I'll always go to a members only facility where this stuff is more carefully monitored. I can't say I'm shocked at how many accidents there are involving firearms over here either.
maxtheflyinghorse
Well-Known Member
My two cents as I moved to the states from the Uk recently. I love the freedom here. Owning a gun is a right here not a privilege. Also most states you can use guns for self defence and carry a handgun on you. To buy a gun all I need in my state is an ID. I don’t need to apply wait for
Months or even years for one. All it take is 10-15 minutes to buy a gun here . I don’t need to justify if I need another caliber. I can buy as much ammo as I want. Also in the UK I heard some police forces are not giving open tickets unless you got a land permission. None of that crap here. We have public land hunting. If I was in the UK now I cannot defend my home if a burglary is about to happen meanwhile here I have a 9 mm handgun , an AR 15 and a pump shotgun at my reach to resolve the problem. Also a .380
Handgun next to my wife too.
Months or even years for one. All it take is 10-15 minutes to buy a gun here . I don’t need to justify if I need another caliber. I can buy as much ammo as I want. Also in the UK I heard some police forces are not giving open tickets unless you got a land permission. None of that crap here. We have public land hunting. If I was in the UK now I cannot defend my home if a burglary is about to happen meanwhile here I have a 9 mm handgun , an AR 15 and a pump shotgun at my reach to resolve the problem. Also a .380
Handgun next to my wife too.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
My partner hated me having my .45 next to the bed when I was working in the USA as she knew better than I that I wake up pretty groggy and would likely do a Pistorius.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I am not sure about this, and I suggest there is a lot of greener on the other side of the fence. My views on America are from good friends, colleagues, clients and business, together with reading and huge of American hunting literature and follow the likes of Randy Newberg, Craig Boddington, etc on YouTube. I have not been to the US. But what is clear to me is the US is a collection of very different states developed by peoples of very different backgrounds and cultures, with many of those original cultures still very close to the surface.
I have though lived and worked in parts of Africa threat of violence from gangsters armed with AKs and Pangas is high and slept with a loaded shotgun next to my bed for this reason. I was going to make my life in Africa, but have now spent the majority of my life in Scotland.
Weapons of war vs Sporting guns. I have little interest in the former, but a huge interest in the latter. I can appreciate the engineering and inventiveness of the likes Henry, Mauser, Browning, Luger, Maxim etc etc but don’t feel the need to possess an FN FAL or a Glock, nor do I feel aggrieved that I am unable to freely walk down Princess Street in Edinburgh with a fully loaded AR waving my 2nd Amendment rights like a MAGA supporter.
I quite like living in a society where the Police are not routinely armed and if I have a minor road accident its very likely I will be threatened with a firearm with the other driver being terrified that I might be about to threaten him.
Coming back to hunting. The US can thank Theodore Roosevelt. He was a hunter and who loved wild spaces. It was him who really laid the foundations politically the wide access to wild lands that the Americans now enjoy. It may have been that many species in the US went from huge abundance to extinction (or at least extinct in most of their former range) in a very short space of time - 10 to 20 years to wipe out Buffalo and Elk herds in most of the US. Wildfowl and pigeons were shot in vast numbers by market hunters.
In the US hunting seems to be very much part of the culture, and thanks to the US Fish and Wildlife, and State game departments, there are now thriving game populations across most of the country, and through a controlled tag system hunters of comparatively modest means can get a tag or two and go on their own adventure and take a deer or two for their own consumption. And ditto with wildfowl etc. Private land has different levels of access and very much depends on where you are.
In the UK we have limited public access for hunting. It really only exists below the high tide mark on the foreshore after wildfowl. But even this has been severely restricted. Up here for £25 I can get a wildfowling permit for a large area of foreshore and I am free to go and lie in the mud after duck and geese. No bag limit per se - nature takes care of that.
Just about all the land in the UK is privately owned or managed. There is common land in many parts, but this jointly managed / owned by commoners. Forestry Scotland is owned and managed by the Scottish Ministers.
So for deer stalker there are really only two choices:
1) you go all in - stalking takes over your life and you fully commit to managing quite large areas, or pay lots of money to do so. Number of deer you “have to” shoot is measured in the tens if not hundreds per year. For most of us, such all in is pretty much impossible thanks to careers, families and other interests / obligations.
2) you take the odd day of guided stalking. Typically you pay a few hundred pounds to follow somebody else around the countryside on their “permission” or “estate” and shoot what they tell you to. Some guides and estates are very good others are not.
Or you shoot game birds as part of a shoot or syndicate.
What we don’t have in the UK, which you do have in the US and mainland Europe are the accessible means for younger and less well off hunters to be able to spend a few days a year in the woods, mountains etc and taking one or two birds for their own consumption.
There is a constant concern that youngsters are not coming into stalking and shooting. For anybody with a family, demanding job and a mortgage or rent to pay most hunting activities have to take a back seat, whereas I think in the US going out hunting is more part of life - you go off to the mountains with a tent, your kids, a rifle and fishing rods and you have fun having first picked up a deer tag and fishing permit.
I have though lived and worked in parts of Africa threat of violence from gangsters armed with AKs and Pangas is high and slept with a loaded shotgun next to my bed for this reason. I was going to make my life in Africa, but have now spent the majority of my life in Scotland.
Weapons of war vs Sporting guns. I have little interest in the former, but a huge interest in the latter. I can appreciate the engineering and inventiveness of the likes Henry, Mauser, Browning, Luger, Maxim etc etc but don’t feel the need to possess an FN FAL or a Glock, nor do I feel aggrieved that I am unable to freely walk down Princess Street in Edinburgh with a fully loaded AR waving my 2nd Amendment rights like a MAGA supporter.
I quite like living in a society where the Police are not routinely armed and if I have a minor road accident its very likely I will be threatened with a firearm with the other driver being terrified that I might be about to threaten him.
Coming back to hunting. The US can thank Theodore Roosevelt. He was a hunter and who loved wild spaces. It was him who really laid the foundations politically the wide access to wild lands that the Americans now enjoy. It may have been that many species in the US went from huge abundance to extinction (or at least extinct in most of their former range) in a very short space of time - 10 to 20 years to wipe out Buffalo and Elk herds in most of the US. Wildfowl and pigeons were shot in vast numbers by market hunters.
In the US hunting seems to be very much part of the culture, and thanks to the US Fish and Wildlife, and State game departments, there are now thriving game populations across most of the country, and through a controlled tag system hunters of comparatively modest means can get a tag or two and go on their own adventure and take a deer or two for their own consumption. And ditto with wildfowl etc. Private land has different levels of access and very much depends on where you are.
In the UK we have limited public access for hunting. It really only exists below the high tide mark on the foreshore after wildfowl. But even this has been severely restricted. Up here for £25 I can get a wildfowling permit for a large area of foreshore and I am free to go and lie in the mud after duck and geese. No bag limit per se - nature takes care of that.
Just about all the land in the UK is privately owned or managed. There is common land in many parts, but this jointly managed / owned by commoners. Forestry Scotland is owned and managed by the Scottish Ministers.
So for deer stalker there are really only two choices:
1) you go all in - stalking takes over your life and you fully commit to managing quite large areas, or pay lots of money to do so. Number of deer you “have to” shoot is measured in the tens if not hundreds per year. For most of us, such all in is pretty much impossible thanks to careers, families and other interests / obligations.
2) you take the odd day of guided stalking. Typically you pay a few hundred pounds to follow somebody else around the countryside on their “permission” or “estate” and shoot what they tell you to. Some guides and estates are very good others are not.
Or you shoot game birds as part of a shoot or syndicate.
What we don’t have in the UK, which you do have in the US and mainland Europe are the accessible means for younger and less well off hunters to be able to spend a few days a year in the woods, mountains etc and taking one or two birds for their own consumption.
There is a constant concern that youngsters are not coming into stalking and shooting. For anybody with a family, demanding job and a mortgage or rent to pay most hunting activities have to take a back seat, whereas I think in the US going out hunting is more part of life - you go off to the mountains with a tent, your kids, a rifle and fishing rods and you have fun having first picked up a deer tag and fishing permit.
Quite, but what the US have is just a copy from all the "old country's" as given their short history also the people who lived there way before the ships turned up hunted in the same way for hundreds of years.
The hunting scene on the 11th century Bayeux Tapestry is a good example.
maxtheflyinghorse
Well-Known Member
My wife hates guns before but now she carries all the time. And she is the one who bought me three of my guns. A browning maxus when I was in the UK which I took with me to the states. And then my smith and Wesson 9 mm and last week she bought me an AR 15 as an early Father’s Day present
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Now you can do a MAGA through the streets then?
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
My Great Aunt, Aunt Winnie, who was my Grandmother's sister told me how in Dublin she and her husband slept with his loaded Webley revolver beneath the pillow. Which given that it was the 1920s and "Uncle Billy" as he was known was by then out of the British Army and now an ADRIC or "Auxie" was probably wise.
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enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
Maybe they like pheasant soup a lot? Or they keep ferrets?
For if done and minced at the time it saves the trouble of having to put it through the mincer later?
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