Would you change a .243 for a 6.5x55?

[Jagare]

Thar, about 2 years ago in Sweden the goverment put forward a proposal to ban all lead in ammunition. This was pushed by the Greens and Left wing who were in coalition with the goverment.
The shooting press, industry, svenska Jagareforbundet and many others pointed out that having to use a alternative material for bullets would mean that any calibre under 7mm would not meet the requirements for a class one weapon. ie: a weapon for shooting big game.
Much testing was done of copper bullets and the like. They were found to be unstable in the heavier bullet weights in any calibre smaller than 7mm. The copper bullet were more likley to fragment and cause injury to the animal being hunted. Also this would make the cost of practice ammo so expensive that nobody would bother with that any more.
At the last election the goverment lost and a more conservative goverment got in to power. The proposed lead ban was kick out ( till a suitable alternative can be founfd for lead) And a bit of common sence has come into the Wolf debate.

 

[Thar]

Why are you trying to make me feel bad or doubtful about my selected calibre?

It is not about making anybody feel bad, I don’t think anybody who already has a swede will change it because of this or other posts, but it is about informing people about the true ballistic capabilities of the cartridge, armed with this information a stalker can decide with this calibre is the one for him.

The trouble is people talk BS about this round for some reason, like:- it punches above it weight, it slow moving bullet kills better, it shots flatter than any other cartridge ect. You never see comments like these made about other cartridges irrespective of there true performance, people stick to it real ballistic capabilities.

The original poster asked if he should swap his 243 for a 6.5X55 or get a 6.5X55 instead of a 30 cal which he has a slot for on his FAC. he then asks about the suitability for shooting African plains game with each. My point is that there are more suitable cartridges for large deer and plains game than the 6.5X55.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Davie]

Thar says totally useless with out bullet weights and i am sure if he had read my post properly the weights had been put up .Then on request i place the other information asked for useless he say why because they don't match hornady's or they make a fool of his data .
Now not all of us home load in fact less than 20% of deerstalkers home load so lets keep it as simple as we can. Now here is the chart in its entirety if you don't like the data don't use home loading as it don't mean ****.
You ask how a smaller caliber can out perform a larger one i will leave that to science. As i think you should do so your data to over 80 % of Deerstalkers is of no importance. It would be better left on the long distance sites were the majority of shots would exceed that of normal deerstalkers. I quote Redmists data. Most deerstalkers shoot no more than 150 even on open hill and the few that do very rarely exceed 200. The most common distance is 100 yards.

It seems that Thar has a real hate of the 6.5 reason i have no idea but he dose seem to jump on every post that asks for information on it and by the looks of it has never owned one but hey (his mates have

 

[Thar]

6.5X55

The your data is flawed, firstly it is not drawn from a single Source it is a pick and mix from 3 different manufactures, secondly the figures for the 6.5x55 are not valid, I think Richard in his old age or his publisher have made a typo’ 139gn bullet doing 2900fps sounds like a 7-08 to me.

To get a 2900fps from a 140gn 6.5mm bullet you need to look at a 6.5-06 cartridge not even a 6.5-284 achieves these velocities, so you best tell all them “F class” shooters to not bother with there custom rifles in 6.5-284 as they have wasted their money as a 6.5X55 is far flatter shooting.

Seeing you only use Factory ammo I looked up some figures for you, from 3 of the biggest ammunition manufactures, unfortunately on average the 6.5X55 velocities are worse than the figures I use from the home loaded data.

All using 140gn bullets.

Federal muzzle velocity 2650fps, Hornady 2525fps and Winchester 2550fps.

So there you have it if you are using factory ammo then that is what you have, 300 to 400fps less than your data.

"Science" I will stick with it if than is OK. Basic physics:- “you can’t get a quart out of a pint” or turn a "pigs ear into a silk purse."

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[swampy]

data sources

6.5
when i gathered my data for the 6.5 i used hornadies ballistic calculator and hodgdons data. just the same for the 270. none of my data is squed one way or another. iused the fastest load for each using a similar pointed soft point bullet. it is a good job i didn't use the data for .270 with the barnes bullets, they are a good 100 fps faster. if that data says the envelope is being pushed it is being pushed for both calibres. whilst this doen't need to turn into a peeing contest the facts are plain to see. you spoke about using bullets of the same wieght..... i did i looked at 140 gr bullets in both calibres and found out to 300m i found quite clearly that the .270 is flattershooting and carries more energy to the target. please read my post

 

[JAYB]

Thar, I think it is safe to say that you are no great fan of the Swede, and have gone to great lengths to produce statistics to prove your point, to your way of thinking. Whilst 6.5X55 has produced figures which disprove yours, to his way of thinking. All that proves is that you can produce a lot of figures to prove any point you want, to my way of thinking.

What cannot really be argued against is practical application in the field, you have had Muir tell you of his brother in law, a professional Elk guide, using a Swede and using it to good effect. Jingzy and Hunters Cabin have told you of their exploits with it and their satisfaction with it's performance. I use mine on Sika and the furthest I have ever had a stag run is about 15 yards. I have had hinds turned completely upside down by it, her feet appearing in the scope where her back should have been. I have shot Sika hinds with my .243 and never had that happen, does not mean that it couldn't just never happened to me. You told us about your friend on the hill who always had to shoot a Red Stag twice to put them down, and yet you managed to drop them on the spot with your .270. Not wishing to doubt your friends ability but, a 6,5 with a suitable bullet not dropping a Red Stag for five years on the trot does seem to me to be a terrible run of bad luck. I know people up here in the Highlands who have used a 243 for 30 plus years on Red Stags and never had any bother. I also know people up here who have used a lot smaller calibre and not had that sort of trouble

The bottom line is the Swede is popular because it is effective, as is the 243, 270, 30-06 and all the rest of them, why, because they are effective. The argument about the relevant ballistics could go on forever and never prove anything. The only facts worthy of consideration here, is whether or not the round is effective, does it do the job humanely, our primary concern is for our quarry. Therefore if it works for you then it is the right tool. That is why your friend got rid of his in favour of a 270, which I presume worked for him.

My answer to the question is would I change a 243 for a 6.5, is still the same, yes I would. I just love those long slender bullets with the superb SD

John

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Great debate lads. Some good points raised, and some important issues missed.

First off, currently I only have one deer legal rifle - a 270win. This certainly gets the job done on all UK and Irish deer and has whacked a few wild boar for me also. The 270 can push a 140gr bullet to 3000FPS. This performance comes at the price of noticeable recoil and muzzle blast. Certainly performance of this nature is more than is required, or maybe even desired, for the majority of UK and Irish stalking.

Important point - bullet contruction. The Swede earned it's very good reputation when bullets of the old fashioned cup and core design were all that was available. A big soft, slow 150-160gr bullet at 2400-2600fps will open up to give a very reliable wound and good killing power.

However, to try and compare this 6.5x55 preformance to to 270 load listed above, particularly for trajectory is laughable.

Who actually zero's their rifle to be dead on at 100m? Zero the above 140gr 270win load 1.5" high at 100m and you are good to 230-240m.

My criticism of the Swede is that it is an old fashioned design. It is intended to work in long barreled military rifles. It has a very long throat - for 160gr bullets, it burns slow powder, preformance is compromised with a short barrel, and low operating pressures..

If you want to run a Swede against a 270win, I would not start with a Swede at all. Look at a 260rem, with a short modern chamber. Load it with 120gr Accubonds or 125gr Partitons. Chamber it in a modern rifle at 58-60K psi. Then run it against a 270win.

If fact, I am about to put my money where my keyboard is and do exactly that. What I hope to achieve is near 270win performance with near 243win recoil and noise in a rifle that can be efficiently mod'ed.

To answer the orignal question, I would not drop the 243 for the Swede. I would handload the 243 with the best bullets I could get and buy a 30cal.

 

[Davie]

Swampy i did read you post as i read Thar,s post and all the replies of people that hate the 6.5 are putting it against the .270 .When that calibre was not in the equation earlier . Now i have shot a lot of deer and hundreds with the .270 with 130 grn Heads and is was a very capable rifle of that there is no doubt. I have shot the .243 with 100grn heads and did not like what it did to the deer and i did not like the distance they ran if the shot was not bang on the money. I have shot a lot of Deer with my 6.5 129 GRN and i have only had it 2-3 years it has shot the biggest wild stag most of us are ever likely to see in britain and the deer dropped to a rib shot. It has shot many extremely large stags and many many bucks. In my opinion it knocks them over which is what this is about far better than a .243 with less wastage and is equal to if not better at killing than the .270 with less of a kick its a trade off and i am afraid the 243 and the .270 imho loose out at both ends.

PS IF THE PAGE FROM THE DEERSTALKING BOOK IS PRINTED WRONG THEN I WILL APOLGISE FOR PUTTING IT UP AND ASK ANYONE READING THIS BOOK TO DISREGARD THIS PAGE UNTIL IT IS PROVEN.

 

[Thar]

John

My views as to liking the cartridge or not are totally irrelevant, it is ballistic data, objectify evaluated that make the case or not for it. The truth is out there, if you will take your head out the sand and accept it.

The ballistic are there to prove my point that while a useable cartridge the 6.5X55 is not as powerful as most other cartridges nor more importantly as some owners delude themselves in to beleieving. You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth, totally ignoring data from several well respected ammunition manufactures posted by myself and others.

My friend shot a number of stags over a 5 year period before he came to the conclusion he was unhappy with it’s performance, anecdotal evidence maybe, but backed by science. So far he is happy with his 270 but I am sure he would have been equally happy with a 30-06 or 280 ect. The shot placement was analysed in the larder afterwards (as always) and shot placement seemed fine (heart lung chest shots).

The SD of the 6.5 is not that special compared to a 6.4(25 cal) or 6.8(270) am I repeating myself? Maybe I should shout and it will sink in.

The world is round by the way.

Best rgds

Tahr












One thing I will conceded is that I am of the firm opinion, that the most important calibre in stalking is the calibre of the man behind the butt.

 

[ezzy6.5]

This has drifted a bit, if we are saying the 270 is better because its flatter and faster then fair enough but if it's all about speed and trajectory why aren't we all shooting 300 win mags or 338 lap mags they are both hard hitting flat calibres. perhaps some of us want just enough gun, but i think it was confucius who said not to use a cannon to kill a mosqito.
Personally i like the sweede for deer and i like the 223 for foxes it seems just right for what i need. i could get something faster or flatter but in 10 years i've only shot a handfull of foxes past 250.

 

[swampy]

hells bells

6.5
i don't have a problem with any calibre etc.

i tried to explain that both are decent cartridges but the 270 has better performance but at the cost of 10 gr of powder. i am sorry if you construed it as a personal attack but that was not the case at all.

hell i shoot 243, 7mm08 and 30-06. there are some good and bad points to all of them but i am not going to dispute data that is good

 

[Thar]

Ezzzy 6.5

At last a 6.5X55 owner who talks sense and gets my point, the Swede is not the fastest or hardest hitting, but if you know this and you either work within it’s limitations, or the type of stalking/quarry you do does not need any more then all is well.

I use my 243 as my roe rifle, I accept it’s limitations and work within these, I have dropped big stags on spot with it but I don’t make it my first choice for this job I pick something bigger.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[JAYB]

John


You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth, totally ignoring data from several well respected ammunition manufactures posted by myself and others.



quote]

The obscure set of data that I posted came from the Lee reloading manual second edition, who reprint loading data supplied by Hodgdon powders, VV and other notable obscure people. Hodgon in their own reloading data have seven loads for a 270 ranging from 2884 up to 3025 fps with pressures ranging from 48100 CUP up to 51000 CUP. In the same they also have seven loads for the Swede ranging from 2493 to 2651 fps and 45700 CUP to 4600 CUP. Both sets of figures are 140 grain bullet, I do not know how long the barrel was but you have to assume it was the same for both rounds. Now bearing in mind the age of the Swede and the fact that powder manufacturers keep loads light because of the elderly chambers and the weakness of these early rifles, it is easy to see why the difference in pressures.

However modern day manufacturing techniques have greatly improved the strength of theses chambers, therefore by increasing the loads to suit modern day manufacturing, and putting everybody on a level playing field, it would not be difficult to "improve" matters. Not that they need it.

Ken Waters managed to get the 160 gr RN to above deer legal limits for Scotland, using a Winchester model 70 with a 22 inch barrel.

I read it whilst I was having a ride on the round world

I'm happy with my head in the sand, there are worse places

John

 

[JAYB]

I have just noticed Claret Dabblers post, sorry Brian, and he has highlighted a very important point. When Remington introduced the 260 in 1997, they did it in order to standardise a lot of the 6.5 wildcats that were being played with at the time.. They therefore got the best of the 6.5 being ballistically similar, the inherent accuracy and low recoil combined with the benefits of modern stronger actions, which meant higher pressures and much more competitive ballistics.

Having said that I can load my modern 6.5, with it's stronger modern action, hotter than the advertised loading figures. SAAMI decided these figures should be adhered to for the 6.5 because of all the old Krag-Jorgenson rifles still in existence.

Hope this helps.

John

 

[Highlander]

swapping .243 for a 6.5x55

Have used a 30-06 for many years on all deer species in the uk, and a 6.5x55 for several.

The 30-06 is without doubt a stand out (some would argue "alone) as a single calibre do it all UK, European (if you put aside the military calibre exclusions) and African plains game rifle.

The 6.5 is a great calibre, and has accounted for a good number of red.

The 30-06, recoil aside, gives a lot more lee way if required. Even remembering accuracy is all!, misjudgements can/do/and will happen.

And African game "fight" well above their weight, as others have already given you, umpteen ballistics.

I suspect your original question was not related to the above 30-06 vs 6.5x55, but thought I would add to the debate on the merits of the two calibres!

Back to your original question a .243 for a 6.5x55 - if you shoot a significant number of foxes stick with the .243 without a doubt. If you use it for mainly roe, munties, chinese, (roe being the obvious, unless you are in a non typical deer population) and you are happy/confident in the calibre again stick with your current .243. If woodland fallow are predominant, personally I would favour a 6.55, but remember accuracy is all!!

However, if it is just that itch that we all have to scratch with respect to calibres, then scratch it!, a 120g ballistic tip 6.5 is just as lethal as 70g ballistic tipped .243 on a fox.

 

[Thar]

John


You see one set of data from an obscure source for ballistics that I can find no data to back up and you proclaim it as the truth,

John the data I was referring to was the data posted by "6.5X55" posting that it was possable to get nearly 2900fps with a 140gn bullet from a Swede. Your data for a 140gn bullet being 2650fps for the Swede and 3025fps for the 270 seem fair.

As the moderator for the reloading section on here would you advocate reloading a swede or any other cartridge above the recommended safe maximum levels set out in any respected reloading manual?

Even if you were to reload you 6.5 to the max’ in your modern rifle you would still have a 10gn powder less in your case, so you may close the gap but you still would not be able to match the 270 ballistics. Then of course we could throw the reloading manual away for the 270 and no doubt open that gap up a bit.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[JAYB]

I'm not advocating that anyone should should load any round too hot for their rifle, what I am pointing out is that the loads in the majority of reloading manuals are set with the old Krag-Jorgenson rifles with their weaker actions in mind. This is obviously a safety feature designed for those that shoot the older rifles. What I am saying is that modern 6.5's built with stronger actions can take a stronger load and still be safe.

The load development for your own rifle depends on you, your level of experience and your rifle. All reloaders know that what is safe in your rifle may very well be unsafe in another, it is tailored for your own rifle. I thought I made it clear why an above maximum load would be acceptable in this round and under what circumstances. It was for this round and not any other cartridge as you are inferring.

I tried to make this clear when drawing attention to Claret Dabblers post about the 260. The bullets are not so different ballistically but with a stronger modern action, able to accommodate higher pressures. If you wish to load your 270 above the recommended levels that is entirely up to you, but I would not recommend it as I am not aware of any significant manufacturing changes since it's inception.

I still stand by my answer to the original question would I change a 243 for a 6.5,yes I would.

John

 

[Thar]

What I am saying is that modern 6.5's built with stronger actions can take a stronger load and still be safe.

this round and not any other cartridge as you are inferring.

Do I take that as a yes for 6.5X55 then?

I would not recommend it as I am not aware of any significant manufacturing changes since it's inception.
John

I think steel and manufacturing tolerances have generally improved a bit in the last 80 years, so they might be a little room for improvement. But if I wanted a more powerful cartridge I would just buy one it would be it far safer and more convenient.

If you want your 6.5 to perform like a 270 why not just buy a 270? Logical?

Somebody in the States did just as you advocated because he had a Remmington 700, starting with the normal max’ load for the 6.5 swede he managed to work up loads using the 140gn Winchester soft points to a heady speed of 2700fps with a 22” barrel.

Of course that is not really so surprising as although you have upped the pressure in your chamber you have forgotten that the data posted at the lower pressure was for a 29” barrel not a more normal 22” barrel on a stalking rifle.

To be fair he said that lighter bullets did better.

But look what happens when reloading goes wrong (OK he did use a Blaser)

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[jingzy]

Let it go

Thar,

it seems that you are unable to let this go. .270 is not the best solution, there have been some excellent arguements for and against all calibres, but I think that your mate has just increased his calibre choice due to his inability to shoot accurately. There is masses of information out there on different calibres and their interior and exterior ballistics, but the 6.5 is renouned for its knock down power.

This is an excellent thread, but it is not far from turning into a personal debate. JAYB is correct in that the 6.5x55 can be loaded above some manufacturers max charges, but that is only because we know that the older 6.5's couldn't put up with the pressure. We also know that the manufacturers would be wrong to put in the higher loads just in case a new reloader was to take it for granted that the loads were safe.

The vhit reloading guides have increased their max loads this year, why? I dont know but maybe it is something to do with progress. The pictures that you put on the site.... Did it say what loads he was producing before the action gave way. He may have been 5 to 10 gr above the max!

Anyway, enough said. There are too many posts worldwide on the internet and on this thread to ignore the wonderfull 6.5.

 

[Davie]

See it seems we have went away from the original thread and got into what is THARS zone that is to hate a calibre I heard some one say that the .243 is the most popular calibre for Deerstalking and for me while it is not up to the job of shooting the big lads it might be worth taking a look at the police for creating a situation of .243 is best. In Scotland the most popular calibres for stalking are 308 270 then 243 the 6.5 is a bit of a new lad here as most Scots will just take whats on the shelf.
The cops up here will issue you with an open licence from the out set and if you have good size deer ground you get what calibre YOU want. Most will get a small rifle eg .222 .223 and a larger calibre 270 308 6.5

The cops down south will try and keep the new lads on the lowest calibre they can and even make it part of the criteria for owning a deer rifle they must go out with a stalker for months years etc and to try and change to a different calibre can meet with full checks and long complicated conversations.
After spending what can be 1000,s on equipment it is no wounder most toe the company line and say ( I LOVE MY .243 )
Just an opinion on why the 243 is top down south.