Would you change a .243 for a 6.5x55?

[Heym SR20]

Is this becoming one of the longest discussions on this site???

Clearly the 6.5x55 is a very good all round calibre - mostly I suspect from the quality and penetration of its long for calibre bullets - especialy the 156 gn. And it built its reputation in the early part of last century along with the 30-06, 303 and 7x57.

The .243 is younger, albeit probably 50 years old and from its outset was designed as a dual purpose varmint and deer calibre. Enough deer in Europe and the US have been dispatched to the happy browsing place in the sky to show that it works and works well.

And there are eneough of them around that on more than one occasion they have been used on much larger beasts - American Elk, Kudu etc etc.

I think the last word should go to Walter Dalrymle Maitland "Karamojo" Bell who used his 7x57 with 173 gn solid bullets to shoot over 1,000 elephants and I quote

"I have never been able to appreciate "shock" as applied to killing game. It seems to me that you cannot hope to kil an elephant weighing six tons by "shock" unless you hit him with a field gun. And yet nearly all writers advocate the use of large bores as the "shock" the firer more, but I fail to see the difference they are going to make to the recipient of the bullet ........... Wounded non-vitally he will go just as far and be just as savage with 500 grains of lead as with 200. And 100 grains in the right place are as good as ten million."


Thus I think the key to all this is that provided you use a bullet and can place it in the vitals, and that bullet can penetrate through the vitals then the beast is dead. One calibre may slightly speed up the process, but the end result is pretty certain.

Now for an easier topic - which are better - blonds, brunettes or red heads!!!![/i] Take cover for the incoming

 

[Grantoliver]

Hi 6.5 x 55.

The question I would like to ask you is would you take your 6.5 out of the cabinet with a large deer such as red as your intended quarry.

Since this thread started getting a little heated I have looked some ballistic tables and can see that the calibre should certainly be capable of doing the job but I am unsure as to whether it would be my calibre of choice for large deer. I would be interested to know how many members only have one calibre and are not in the position of being able to reach for a larger calibre if thought necessary.

Grant

 

[300wsm]

I have never had a problem with using my .243 and 70 BT's to shoot large lowland red stags.

 

[Davie]

Grant i have had 3006 and 270 also the smaller .222 and used a 223 a lot i did own a 243 but like i said it was not up to the job.
Now with hand on heart i can say that the 6.5 in a cabinet of all the calibres above would be the first i would pick up to take out stalking woodland stags of the size you see in the picture . Now they are of the biggest body mass anyone will shoot in this island of our.
My reason is that the bullet makeup is such that the energy is transferred to the flesh of the animal not the air behind it.

PS i can get any calibre with in reason i like . I am not restricted to choice as most new lads are down south ( which is in my opinion a very bad thing ) So the rifle i have now is the one i choose to pip against deer . I also have a 22.250 but its only going to be used on foxes and roe does.

 

[Little Terry]

.243 is a class 2 weapon here. Roe badger and vermin. Reason we have moose and wild boar. The 6.5 is a very accurate low recoil round very suitable for the novice stalker. It will kill all deer species in the UK punkt slut.

Agreed - that's why I got mine! Sweden is the place to be.

 

[Thar]

My reason is that the bullet makeup is such that the energy is transferred to the flesh of the animal not the air behind it.

I thought the long thin slim bullets were great at penetrating, and in my opinion do exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Make your mind up. High SD small frontal area, small area to transfer energy, or poor SD large frontal area good at energy transfer(308)

I was with a bloke the other week (not in the UK) he has 11 centre fire rifles in his house, I asked him which one he uses most he said he had two 22 hornets one with scope one without, he says he uses them to shoot everything up to and including red deer and boar.(head shots).

. A 22 rimfire will drop any deer we have (hit in the right place).

Just because it can be done, it does not mean that is the best way.

A skilled man can knock nails in with an adjustable spanner, but most can do a better job with a hammer.

I think there are better calibres for large deer than the old swede things have moved on a bit in the last 110 years.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Thar]

Sweden is the place to be.

Only for blonds.

Tahr

 

[300wsm]

I thought the long thin slim bullets were great at penetrating, and in my opinion do exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Make your mind up. High SD small frontal area, small area to transfer energy, or poor SD large frontal area good at energy transfer(308)

Thats why I like 115gr BT's in .25cal long thin slim bullets good at penetrating but also have very good expansion, energy transfer and retained weight.

 

[ejg]

Tahr, agree to that.
On top of that, one problem is often overseen is that in the last maybe 50 years the bullet developement has been towards faster impact speeds and therefore harder bullets are on the market than used to be.
Eight pages of discussion and several countries not allowing the 6.5 for larger deer should be enough evidence to at least admit that the swede is OK but not the best choice for large deer.
edi

Oh, how many elephant did Mr. 7x57 shoot in the heart?
Didn't he only pop em behind the ear??

 

[Thar]

Thats why I like 115gr BT's in .25cal long thin slim bullets good at penetrating but also have very good expansion, energy transfer and retained weight.

Best of both and loads of hydrostatic shock as well.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Davie]

You are really pushing your knowledge base here and your echo ejg is looking like he hero worships you . Now i don't have a mate that shoots every thing in the head most of the lads i know shoot the engine room. With regards how the bullet performs is that down to the bullet weight and speed is not also on how it is presented at its chosen quarrie.
PS I SHOOT 129 SST,S TRY THEN YOUR SELF AND LETS HAVE AN OPINION FROM YOU THAT HAS A BIT OF SUBSTANCE.
Now i know that you have had runners with the rifles you have and some have run hundreds of yards. So lets not get into if your a good shot you can use a .22 rimmy

 

[300wsm]

Ah 6.5 I see that because you like the 6.5 x 55 it means all known laws of ballistics and energy do not apply to it.

According to some of your posts the 6.5 penetrates well due to its high SD and long bullets but then in another you state it dumps most of its energy in the animal which is it it cannot do both.

I guess if we follow all of your posts we have all been guilty of calibre wars and should have recommended that Heym keep his 243 and use 55 or 70 grain Ballistic Tips as these would dump all of there energy inside the animal and would have a nice flat trajectory instead of the 6.5's rainbow one

From the research a friend of mine did on 1000's or deer cull records any 30cal was by far the best performer for the least distance run by the animal, 308 being the best of the 30 cals.

 

[jingzy]

Although the 6.5 is long and thin and is well known for penetration, this is not the only factor. Dont forget the bullet is travelling slower than the .270, 25-06 and many others that I cant be bothered looking up. This is why it has such hard hitting ability. The energy is being transferred into the vtals more successfully.

This is why I didn't like the 25-06, I found that at close ranges the bullet had not expanded very well, thus transferring less energy and deer running on. When the deer was further than about 130yds, the bullet worked better and the deer either did not run or ran on less.

I also think that the use of 70gr bt is ok on most deer but I would think twice about large woodland stags.

6.5, what was the weight of the 2 deer in the photos, the 1st one looks very big.

Jingzy

 

[300wsm]

BT's expand well out of a .25 cal I have recovered several 3 x calibre BT's from close range deer 1 from a neck shot Fallow buck.

Velocity is everything for expansion think of a 14lb hammer being placed on a rivet against a 3lb hammer being driven to strike the rivet.

I have seen plently of PD's shot with 243 and 70gr BT and you dont get much bigger deer than one of those.

 

[jingzy]

300,

that is a good analogy but I know of deer that have been shot in the shoulder with a bt, the result was a large flesh wound with no penetration. So you are correct, lots of speed, lots of expansion, but not always doing the job correctly.

J

 

[300wsm]

Years ago I can remember being told about BT's creating big flesh wounds with no expansion but I have not had this happen or seen it first hand, I have had poor performance (lack of expansion) with gamekings as I posted earlier and I had the same with partitions I have tried Accubonds but wasn’t impressed with those either.

I went back to BT's to me Meat damage is secondary (it doesn’t even effect the price at the dealer if I sell one) deer welfare and recovery comes first, nice big wound, lots of trauma, short death flight, and a good blood trail so that if it is out of sight the dogs have a good trail to follow.

 

[smullery]

Just got my variation back today (Lincs, handed in last Wednesday, signed by CC this Monday and posted on Tuesday).

Got a second 6.5 x 55. My current Sako has 500mm barrel factory threaded and I want a sound moderator for it.

Again, I choose to use a 156gr modern bullet (only the cartrigde is ancient, not the powder or bullet) because of maximum expansion and minimal meat damage. Kudu and Wildebeest at 150 metres and Springbok out to 340 metres. Only Roe in the UK to date but Fallow and Red in two weeks in scotland.

Second 6.5 x 55 is because I want to use the same round with a standard 600 mm barrel length, un-moderated and over open sights.

Have enjoyed my 9.3 x 62 more with open sights over 150 metres in bushveld than with optics. (now allowed 9.3 x 62 ammo in the UK. Only had the rifle six weeks before getting it out to Africa).

My 15 year old fired his first rifle in South Africa only four weeks ago. 20 rounds over 90 minutes to get him zeroed and "safe" as well as comfortable in field technique.

The relatively mild recoil and the kill factor got him his confident, accomplished kills. 2 Gemsbok, 2 Impala, 1 Red Hartebeest, 1 Blesbok, 2 Steenbuck and 1 Warthog in five days.

I genuinely don't think he would have done it with a .243

I don't think I would have tried it with a .243 !

In the UK I would start anyone on a 6.5 x 55 for deer and not feel a need for anything greater. My chosen 286 gr rounds in 9.3 x 62 aren't legal in Scotland because they're too slow....

Stan

 

[Thar]

You are really pushing your knowledge base :

You have repeatedly made yourself look a fool with your lack of knowledge.

your echo ejg
:

Ejg is individual that does not even live in the same country as me so if he is my echo I must be shouting loud, or perhaps both of us like the German government just have a different opinion to you.

. Now i don't have a mate that shoots every thing in the head most of the lads i know shoot the engine room.
:

And if you have ever read any of my old posts you will see that I to advocate heart/lung shot and are anti even neck shots.

With regards how the bullet performs is that down to the bullet weight and speed is not also on how it is presented at its chosen quarrie.
:

Agreed a 130gn bullet travelling a 3000fps will kill better than one doing 2700fps.

PS I SHOOT 129 SST,S TRY THEN YOUR SELF AND LETS HAVE AN OPINION FROM YOU THAT HAS A BIT OF SUBSTANCE.
:

I use 130gn SST,

Now i know that you have had runners with the rifles you have and some have run hundreds of yards.

I don't recall me shooting any deer that have run hundreds of yards , but I must commend you on your excellent shooting skills as you never have any runners.

That red was it shot on or near Cannock Chase? The vehicle looks familiar.

I have guided a few people who tell you “I never miss” funny thing is that they on occasion have, of cause they tell me well that is the first time that has happened or other BS.

The name of the man that never misses is……………………………….Billy Lair.

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[Thar]

Hi 300 WSM

When you look at the science it is easy to see why the 30 cal drops animals better than the old 6.5X55 just as your study found.

If we take Smullery's Norma 156gn bullet travelling at 2500fps at 200 yrds it has 1,415 ftlbs of energy.

The 308 with a 155gn bullet travelling at 2850fps at 200 yrds it has 2,023 ftlbs of energy.

But that only tells part of the story; the 308 bullet has around a 30% more frontal area (PIr2) with which to transfer that extra 600ftlbs of energy into the animal. It also causes a bigger wound channel and has better hydroalastic shock due to the higher velocity of the bullet.

The 6.5 drops 3” and the 308 2” at 200yrds when both zeroed at 150yrds, so accurate shot placement is likely to be slightly better with the 308.

All round for the UK stalker the 308 beats the 6.5 hands down.

As the Japanese found out in WW2 the 6.5 was no match when it mattered against the British 303 and US 30-06, it did not have the stopping power hence why they changed mid’ conflict to a 7.7mm round(30 cal) that was very similar to the 303.(have I said that before)

Best rgds

Tahr

 

[jingzy]

The us and british had that much stopping power that they resorted to nuclear weapons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is where you go wrong Thar. You see a 140gr 6.5 has higher sd than a 180gr .30 round. Yes there can be differences in trajectory but again this depends on the rifle and the ammo being used.

Last year me and a 2 mates had a competition. Thhey both used .308 and me a 6.5 swede. I beat them at 100yds, at 200 yds and then at 250 yds. What was the difference in drop when we done a trajectory check over 250 yds, you would have been lucky if it was an inch.

I like proven facts, it is easy to choose the type of data that you want to use. Can you also stop bringing other calibres into the 243, 6.5 debate, if anything it makes you look argumentative and quite arrogant. If you want to start a who hates the 6.5 thread then go ahead but try to keep this thread on track.

We know what you think, you use a 270 because you feel a bigger calibre will make up for your poor shooting, and your mate joined you cos he couldn't drop a deer with a 6.5, probably the only man on the planet.