2 dead red deer in Newton Aycliffe game dealers today

[Mannlicher_Stu]

~Personally
i would take this as an oppertunity to fund the restocking myself
it ain't that difficult planting a few trees
Plus the cost of re-planting is easily affordable from profits gained by selling the stalking
especially as you hav suggested about 350 deer over the next year
there should be no issuses with lack deer to show any interested parties or individual pay to stalks
win-win allround except for the deer ,
but thats business and life i'm afraid

Planting trees is not a cheap option many many thousands of sponnies
It involves machinery heaping up new earth heaps which takes time and considerable labour involved as they are planted manually plus the expense of the saplings and depending on the size of the forest the cost of erecting stockproof deer fences is also expensive, deer management control with the use of firearms until the trees are out of reach is the more cheaper option, especially if you can get it done on a let basis but numbers need to be monitored,

I have a replanted area that we took 20 deer of last year before replanting commences this year I need to take more of, this last weekend my partner and myself took another two bucks off we did see at least 18 Does as well browsing so need to address the situation with the forest companies, if they need them controlled totally, I will need a special licience, but until then I control within the law.

 

[buck52]

Wow, 7 pages because of 2 "dead red deer" which would have been taken with an out of season (male deer only) license and by an FC Ranger.
Its easy reading through the posts to see who are the professionals and who are not, and for the latter, if you start crying every time a few deer are killed, in or out of season, and your attitude spreads you will lose your pastime to professionals, you can not let deer establish themselves in crops or restock sites. This huggy attitude is why the Deer Initiative & the dcs are listened to.
Just my lowly (recreational stalker) opinion

 

[bogtrotter]

Unfortunately [particularly in certain upland areas] there are far too many deer, there are various reasons for this, mostly all down to man.
There is only one management tool for this situation and that is a rifle!
I personally didn't set out to become a "killer" and come from a very traditional stalking background, but because of my background and learning from some great guys, it gave me the ability to effectively stalk and shoot deer, hence when faced with big numbers you are equiped with the skills and the determination to do it.
I have in many occassions returned from the hill empty handed because the situations weren't right for a safe shot or a suitable animal was found, I also spend many an hour watching wildlife including deer without the urge to kill it. I do however take issue with the mind set that to be a "real stalker" you must view killing deer as a nesessary evil, well I don't, I make no appologies for the fact that I enjoy killing [sorry culling] deer just as I enjoy shooting foxes and watching rugby.
The only reason for big culls is the fact that some old "traditional" tweed clad stalker smoking a pipe did sweet fa for 40 years and in order to make his life easier allowed numbers to increase!!!!!
Unlike grouse and other game the easiest way to have deer is to do nothing!
The only way to manage deer is by correct culling, the fact that you have a full freezer and a good time doing it is a bonus. Forums like this, stalking magazines, cull data, reloading manuals, management plans are all useless unless there is a dedicated man in the field with a rifle [lets hope he isn't too traumatised by the site of dead deer to do his job without having to seek therapy]

There is a man who tells it like it is.

The only difference of
opinion that I have and its a personal thing is that I no longer get any pleasure from pulling the trigger, and much prefer taking a client to do the shooting especially a novice to get his first beast.

I am now in the lucky position to be able to do that, as can now reach most of my cull figures with clients, making up any discrepancies on females myself at the end of the season.

However it has not always been like that in the 80s and 90s when there was a lot hill land going under forestry and big culls had to be made, I was culling in excess of 1000 deer a year

Some have suggested more let days would remove the need for out of season shooting and would provide enough income
to cover damage by deer, I am afraid thats pie in the sky.

The truth is that the real problem with over population of red deer is down to the fact of to many hinds, its easy enough to get clients to come and shoot stags when the weather is good, but the real struggle is to during the hind season short days
and inclement weather and a large number to cull,most professionals don't want clients at the hinds, while there are plenty good recreational stalkers, most are just to slow for a real cull situation, when you get in to a group of hinds in most cases I can probably have five on the deck by the time the client has shot one.

The fact is its almost impossible to reach cull figures with clients.

 

[steyr]

bogtrotter,if most professionals don't want clients at hinds,and i think i understand! you want x number of hinds shot and clients only shoot 1 maybe. is there not a place for a hobby stalker to help out and pay a small fee as well? providing he can shoot the number required of course!!

 

[JC275]

As I've said before, my hill experience is limited but, if it is all about numbers, why not just leave the carcasses on the hill? The loss of income would be substantial but so is the cost of extraction. The public outcry would be severe but could be handled. Not trying to stir the pot, just thinking out loud. JC

 

[bogtrotter]

bogtrotter,if most professionals don't want clients at hinds,and i think i understand! you want x number of hinds shot and clients only shoot 1 maybe. is there not a place for a hobby stalker to help out and pay a small fee as well? providing he can shoot the number required of course!!

You are correct of course and I have a few guys that I can call on to do just that.

 

[steyr]

You are correct of course and I have a few guys that I can call on to do just that.

ahh..so how would some one like me get on that list of "few guys" seems like an affordable way of stalking/shooting to me!! and to help toward dsc level 2!! and to help out of course!!

 

[stone]

Planting trees is not a cheap option many many thousands of sponnies
It involves machinery heaping up new earth heaps which takes time and considerable labour involved as they are planted manually plus the expense of the saplings and depending on the size of the forest the cost of erecting stockproof deer fences is also expensive, deer management control with the use of firearms until the trees are out of reach is the more cheaper option, especially if you can get it done on a let basis but numbers need to be monitored,

I have a replanted area that we took 20 deer of last year before replanting commences this year I need to take more of, this last weekend my partner and myself took another two bucks off we did see at least 18 Does as well browsing so need to address the situation with the forest companies, if they need them controlled totally, I will need a special licience, but until then I control within the law.

Are you for real here Stu

Any land agent or contracter etc etc worth their salt , will already should of put into the equation the cost of re-instating the ground ready for re-plant after clearfell so that already has been paid for from the profits from the harvested timber
if they hav not, then the land owner or who ever needs their head testing
unless you hav just aquired the ground
then that is a seperate issuse
clearfell planting is not that easy granted, but none the less
working out the cost of saps and planting costs is not rocket science, trust me as most of it is done by peice work
but i would be interested on how much the FC pay their foriegn workers per 1000
but how much would you make from culling say 200 deer along with the venison sale
if that was pay by the day stalking??
i'll let you work it out as i more than sure you are capable
and before anyone moans this point about restocking valuble plantations is not that relevant to this thread
this is more than likely what started out of season culling in the first place so these reds ended up in the gamedealers originally
Regards

 

[bambislayer]

Wow this has heated up in the last few days

I know it's hard to believe but sales from stalking/venison are peanuts in the grand scale.

Our new grant scheme does not fund restocking, timber prices are not altogether brilliant and although you say use the money from timber, remember that those cut trees have to pay for a previous 40 - 70 years of management!

You say "sell" stalking, has no one read the comments on hear from some of our members when they are asked "how much would you pay"

In an ideal world we would have lots of trees and tons of deer, unfortunately in the real world it is one or the other and politically the trees have won. We just need to get our heads round less deer and paying more for them, remember we may also get better quality deer in the process, we would do well to take some lessons from some of our scandinavian and european cousins who have a healthy hunting culture and thriving forestry busineses

 

[bambislayer]

As I've said before, my hill experience is limited but, if it is all about numbers, why not just leave the carcasses on the hill? The loss of income would be substantial but so is the cost of extraction. The public outcry would be severe but could be handled. Not trying to stir the pot, just thinking out loud. JC

It's a very valid point though, think of it

you are providing carrion for eagles etc.
no machine therefore less cost and less polution
less impact on environment, ie tracks
less time dragging , more time shooting.

Just let SGA, Oban Times etc hear you say you've left one, and you'll get caught in a s*** storm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stone]

Wow BS
that just nails the final coffin shut for it all then
no budget for re-instating restocks where the next generation of timber will come from
timber worth less now than 40 years ago even though timber prices hav gone through the roof of late
and no one can make a profit from stalking at a time that wanted stalking is at it's highest ever volume in the UK
Feck i feel depressed
i only heard the other day that a contract stalker made over £50,000 last year from the deer he put into the larder
at £120 a carcass he must of shot a few and at who's expense
now where did the cash come from to pay that??
40-70 years of management at wot costs, as there are no herbicides or aphicides involved each year but then i hear about asulux being deployed by helicopter for bracken
i can see why such forestry companies are in trouble and now that monetry driven, they hav lost all concept of what they are trying to acheive
really sorry state of affairs
i think i need a drink

 

[scottybhoy88]

Are you for real here Stu

Any land agent or contracter etc etc worth their salt , will already should of put into the equation the cost of re-instating the ground ready for re-plant after clearfell so that already has been paid for from the profits from the harvested timber
if they hav not, then the land owner or who ever needs their head testing
unless you hav just aquired the ground
then that is a seperate issuse
clearfell planting is not that easy granted, but none the less
working out the cost of saps and planting costs is not rocket science, trust me as most of it is done by peice work
but i would be interested on how much the FC pay their foriegn workers per 1000
but how much would you make from culling say 200 deer along with the venison sale
if that was pay by the day stalking??
i'll let you work it out as i more than sure you are capable
and before anyone moans this point about restocking valuble plantations is not that relevant to this thread
this is more than likely what started out of season culling in the first place so these reds ended up in the gamedealers originally
Regards

When I contracted for the FC, about 5 years ago, we were getting about £55 per thousand to plant it and each man planted roughly 2k a day. It then got sprayed for weevil twice in the first year and once in year 2 at around £50 a hectare. The beat up, or restocking of dead, was carried out once a year for the 3 following years at roughly £100 per man per day. Add into that the price of the mounding, tracks and the cost of the trees and its a pretty expensive operation.

If the deer come in and eat the trees then you replant it, they'll just come back in and wipe them out again. Fencing or shooting is the only option.

You don't have time to **** about with day by day stalking and hind stalking especially isn't nearly as lucrative as you make out.

As you say, timber prices have increased of late, but last year some of the contracting companies were getting their work limited because there was next to no profit in forestry operations.

You honestly come across like you have a very limited knowledge of forestry and stalking with your posts on this thread.

 

[stone]

scotty
cheers mate you hav made my point
£55 to plant a 1000
so how much does a thousand trees cost???
now compare that to 4 days stalking and 3 cull bucks at £100 a day £100 a buck and £40 venison sales
some days you get more others less
same as does
but stalking can take place all year round
as for weevil who brought that in
as it don't come from a good seed source
are you saying that the FC are aware of this and fund accordingly
but the track issuse is a good point
who the feck in their right minds plant a crop where extraction is greater than the cost of the crop itself
but you are right
i hav no knowledge where fools rule

 

[sherlock]

I have seen a haddock and a cod or "CUD as pronounced in Ashington" and they both had been BATTERED talk about animal cruelty!!

 

[scotspine]

How did forestry get involved in this? Anyway, tree planting is very expensive and any degrade in the crop as a result of , say, deer damage will have a significant impact on the value of the crop at harvesting time.Fencing works best but adds around £300-£1000/ha planted , depending on scale.The next best solution is shooting, ideally well in advance of planting and to a point where deer are a rarity. The trees need to grow unmolested for a few years so deer control will need to be thorough and persistent. Sporting lets will not work unless the guys involved buy in to the game-plan and do the job right.Alas, this involves time and effort and as a result the "lease" is worthless(relatively speaking). So, the forester wants a team of guys to come in and wipe out deer in short order then keep numbers low until the crop is established.....where it really matters contractors/employed staff are used and get paid for what they do. I believe that there is scope for dedicated recreational stalkers to do a similar job for little or no cost to the forest owner but it is hard to set up and a management nightmare...oh, and it just might involve a lot of out of season culling and night shooting!

Regards

 

[countrryboy]

I don't really want to be taking sides here as i can see both sides, and many off the people invovled are far more expierenced than myself in the deer side of things.

It is all very well restocking, up to a point and depending on how hard they are gettin hammered. If u keep replanting them and they keep gettin ate u are in a no win situation and eventually u will end up with a timber stand off vaying ages that will probably have a lot off twin or multi stemmed timber (because deer have nipped the leading shoot when young). Normally that type of timber is next to worthless althou in our area the price has went up recently for chip/biofuel timber to burn at the local biomass power stn.

I also think i am correct in saying that red deer will kill trees at any age throu eating the bark and ring barking them (I'm sure the expierenced forestry boys frae up north will correct me if i'm wrong on that one) so even a mature plantion can be damaged

I also don't really agree with these big culls either, but it is not the rangers/stalkers fault they jist get handed the sh*tty end off the stick to sort out the problem which is probably due to the planning, siting and lack of fencing the forest in the first place. If the full time boys are'nt happy doing it i'm sure they would soon be kicked out off there job and tied house to make way for some one else, ther'e will always be somone willing to do it. As long as the cull is carried out in a profesional and humane manner which i'm sure it is does it really matter how many or who shoots the deer, its better a deer lying in the larder than starved on the hill.

I'm trying to stay on the fence here but if a farmer came to u with pigeon damage to a barley field u would go out and shoot them, u wouldn't expect the farmer to resow the bits that were damaged and sell days to decoyers. The theory of the argument is similar except over 25-40 year rotion instead off anually the crop has still to be relatively mature at the same time.

Jist my prespective on it for wot's worth

 

[bogtrotter]

ahh..so how would some one like me get on that list of "few guys" seems like an affordable way of stalking/shooting to me!! and to help toward dsc level 2!! and to help out of course!!

The guys that I use are people that I have known for a number of years some started as clients, and some are lads I know with stalking experience.
The criteria being that I know that they can do the job without being supervised, that means stalking shooting extraction and larder work.
If I have to accompany them it defeats the object of the exercise its far more productive, if I can stalk one area of the ground and send someone to another area .

However as I said previously I am doing much less of that type of work these days and can usually reach my cull figures
without needing any help.
As to your question of how to get that type of stalking I am not sure suppose its about getting to know people and them getting to know you, some of the lads that I use were regular stalking clients over a number of years that I became friendly with.

 

[steyr]

i think thats answered it for me! as i said before putting people on the ground would do the job,let days etc.but as you've just stated they need to be "the right people" to go it alone,or it would defeat the object!! so now then your OK as you say you have a list of people to get the job done and meet your cull figures!! but does the professional stalker that has to shoot at night/out of season not need help to meet his cull figures? it has been said that a client will only shoot one in the time i can shoot five!! so its a wast of time to take clients out on hinds! so may be the answer for them would be to have (and this may sound silly but!!) paying helper days!! not your hooray henry type that get guided shoot a hind,then drink tea and watch everyone else do the hard work!!! but a stalker that would pay to go on a hind cull get their hands dirty,maybe get to fire a few shots etc. the stalker could then see if hes up to it,and the pro stalker may ask him back over again until such time he trusts him to go it alone!! seems a win win to me, stalker gets an affordable day out,pro gets paid and has help!! cull figures met,no need for night/out of season shooting!!...or is that a silly idea:idea:

 

[scotspine]

Thats the right idea Steyr but a hard nut to crack. There are lads out there that can do the job but they have to find the niche ground that is not "traditionally" managed by employed stalkers/forestry companies/agents etc. They also need to be committed and that means year round surveillance and culling.If you are in a syndicate and have a good rapport with the manager ask if he has any proposed restock sites that will need protection...let him know your team are up for it. The same goes for the hill; it does happen and I believe more opportunities will arise because huge pressure is building for an increased and sustained cull.
As an aside , having level1/2 and being on the Fit and Competent register may pay dividends in future as it makes it easier for a manager to pick you out of a crowd.

regards

 

[scottybhoy88]

scotty
cheers mate you hav made my point
£55 to plant a 1000
so how much does a thousand trees cost???
now compare that to 4 days stalking and 3 cull bucks at £100 a day £100 a buck and £40 venison sales
some days you get more others less
same as does
but stalking can take place all year round
as for weevil who brought that in
as it don't come from a good seed source
are you saying that the FC are aware of this and fund accordingly
but the track issuse is a good point
who the feck in their right minds plant a crop where extraction is greater than the cost of the crop itself
but you are right
i hav no knowledge where fools rule

We're not talking about someone coming out for a jolly and getting a cull buck. We're talking about a smallish area that might need a couple of hundred hinds shot in the 3 months they're in season. You seem to be blinded by the romance of the paying client days. They are a good source of income and they are a good starting point for getting cull figures, but sometimes it just simply isn't practical.

For example, I planted a 30 hectare site which was virtually wiped out over a winter. 30 Ha @ 2600 trees per Ha so around £4.5k to plant. If its after year 2 it had been sprayed at a cost of around £4.5k plus maybe 2 beat ups and the price of the trees, which I can't remember of the top of my head. Say, for easy counting, thats a total cost of between £13-£15k wiped out on a 30 hectare site that deer are only seen on in the last half hour of light and the first half hour in the morning. And then you could replant and it could all happen over again. If you were the manager would you be happy to take this risk because someone is willing to pay £100 to come and shoot a buck on it? No, you'd limit your risk by shooting it constantly for the first few years till the trees get away. Possibly with out of season and night shooting as an aid.

Someone asked about damage later after the first few years. It is quite limited once the trees are established.