DSC2. Why?

[WiltsPat]

This is really an academic question directed at those people that either have a DSC2, are in the process of getting one or are thinking about it.

Im not one for taking courses for the sake of it and was wondering what the reasoning was for others doing it. I am by no means suggesting that this is the case for you but just want a better understanding of what the benefits are in your case?

Pat

 

[willie_gunn]

Pat

A very interesting question that will, I am sure, elicit some interesting answers and observations

Personally I took my DSC2 because, having completed my DSC1, I wanted to learn and understand more about the practical side of stalking - deer management, carcase preparation, etc. To me it was a natural progression. At the time my stalking was almost exclusively "pay per stalk" but I also had access to stalking land of my own. If I was going to go out and cull deer, then I wanted to be able to gralloch them in the field, prepare them in the larder and - if necessary - put them into the human food chain. I believed at the time that the DSC2 would help me with this, and I still do.

My DSC2 portfolio was prepared over a couple of years with my mentor teaching me along the way, ably assisted by his existing stalking guides. Once we both felt confident then the portfolio was duly submitted and I 'gained' the DSC2. Although I still have access to my own land, I also now guide clients and, where appropriate, can witness stalks.

Having the DSC2 doesn't mean I am a better stalker than anyone else - fat chance - but where I do feel it succeeds is in it's aims of delivering a foundation level of expertise that is competent, consistent, and repeatable. Well, just so long as everyone conforms to the same standards!

In October I will be attending the BDS Deer Management Course in Thetford. There's no reason for me to do so other than a strong interest in deer and their management. However, I personally believe that, whether in our professional lives or our choice of hobbies and pastimes, education and training is a continual process. I find deer fascinating but recognise that, as much for their welfare as our enjoyment, the population needs to be controlled. If by attending a course I can gain from others experience and learn something that makes me a better deer manager, then for me it's worth it.

You never stop learning unless you choose to do so.

willie_gunn

 

[WiltsPat]

Thanks for the reply willie and a very sensible reason for taking the course. Out of curiosity, in your opinion, is there anything you can do now that you have a DSC2 Certificate that you couldnt have done without it but with suitable experience?

 

[willie_gunn]

Pat

From a practical stalking perspective, no. The certificate in and of itself doesn't imply, infer or implant any special powers in the stalker Far more important than the certificate is the quality of the person who is mentoring you. All the certificates in the world mean nothing if you're mentor is teaching you the wrong thing.

What the DSC2 did let me do was become an Approved Witness - it's a pre-requisite. Why did I become an AW? Not for the money (what money??) but for the chance to put something back into the sport.

Bear in mind I'm answering your question from the perspective of someone who doesn't have any FC leases or the like. Others on the site, more qualified than me, may be able to advise you whether having a DSC2 makes it easier to gain stalking leases from the FC.

My own stalking ground belongs to a local farmer. To be candid, he wouldn't know a DSC2 if he ploughed one up, so I don't think it made any difference to him. He was delighted just the same with the roe buck I shot, butchered, bagged and delivered to him.

Hope this helps.

willie_gunn

 

[JC275]

Good, positive responses from Willie. Wonder how long it will be before the usual suspects find this thread (and the DSC2 Gralloch one) and start crying into their beer and blameing everyone from Richard Nixon to Zippy and Bungle for the fact that they haven't got a DSC2 certificate!! JC

 

[sikamalc]

Willie,

A very sensible, honest and good response.

 

[shootingduckdog]

Dsc2

To add to Willies comments and to also get in before the "tabloid storm" we usually enjoy on this and similar topics on here.

One thing I can do with DSC2 that I cant do without it is stalk FC land and any other that specifies it (such as Tilhil now). I can also demonstrate to the totally uninitiated that I am a serious and (supposedly) competent stalker. I have picked up over 6000 acres of stalking since I got it last year. It is not exclusively the reason but I am sure it helps. Landowners feel more comfortable with a relative stranger on their land if they believe they can demonstrate competance and insurance. (none of my land is FC by the way)

The second benefit is more general and contentious. I believe that the more of us that qualify the less chance there is of mandatory testing and the less chance of stalking having to be carried out by "state" employees on the grounds that there are not enough "qualified" stalkers to go around. I hope this does not cause your thread to get hijacked but I suppose it depends wether you believe in "playing" the system (as I do) or fighting it (which I dont think ever works)

I have to say however that my primary reason for doing it originally was exactly the same as Willies, it was a natural progression and it furthured my knowledge.

If your question had been "do you know more and perform better as a result of DSC2?" then my answer would definately be YES. There is always more to learn.

 

[Harry mac]

Good, positive responses from Willie. Wonder how long it will be before the usual suspects find this thread (and the DSC2 Gralloch one) and start crying into their beer and blameing everyone from Richard Nixon to Zippy and Bungle for the fact that they haven't got a DSC2 certificate!! JC

Flippancy won't alter the fact that the DSC2 is just a money spinner. As has already been said, it doesn't qualify you to do anything you're not doing already. It's just a pat on the head and "good boy". Once enough people have got it that revenue stops coming in they'll invent DSC 3.

 

[Offroad Gary]

good posts Dom, very true as one would expect.

i was discussing this the other day with another local stalker, he said "having a level 2, shows some commitment". to that my response was "having a level 2 shows a need or desire to have level 2, and that is all".

during a chat with another stalker that i do a bit with, the subject came up and we both agreed that we struggled with the whole system, and the fact that people who are not competant stalkers, can obtain level 2 and think that they are. (names have been witheld to protect the innocent!)

i have neither level 1 or 2, and at present that suits me, although i am seriously considering taking the level 1 tests in the future (test only, not the course). should i obtain level 1, i would probably register for level 2 and take it in due course.

one thing that i have noticed, is that as i get better at this stalking thing, i decide to shoot less deer - nobody taught me that and its not in the level 1 handbook that i bought.

 

[www.yorkshireroestalking.]

As has already been said, it doesn't qualify you to do anything you're not doing already. It's just a pat on the head and "good boy". .

I disagree here a little.
I am now in a position to cull deer for a number of bodies 1 been a runway.
The way in to this has been many meetings risk assesments method statements and security checks as well as signing the official secrets act.
The 1 thing which put these people at ease was qualifications, yes another bit of paper saying I could do the job I have been doing for a great many years without.
There is NO way I would have even got in through the door without qualifications as my commercial insurance would be on shakey ground had I had no training or qualification.
I had to fill in pages of stuff which really wasn't relevant to me being a 1 man band such as what training were my employees given and what else they were booked in to do etc.
So this is yet another good feather in tthe cap for my company because I am qualified.
On a personal level I did my dsc1 in 99and 2 in 2004 before I ever imagined going pro, and the reason because I could only see personal benifit (non financial) coming from it.(I might add I have now been culling deer for 22 years).
The point is you never know where life will take you and having these things under your belt will not HOLD YOU BACK. It can only further your experiences.
Another example which didn't quite come of was a good friend rang me and said I have a job to cull a wood of munjac it is all expenses paid are you interested?
Yes I said (naturally). But why is it no good for your local mates?
None have a dsc he said to get accepted we have to be qualified.

 

[limulus]

If you apply for a job and it states you must have a degree in this and experience of that then you dont dont bother applying for that job if you do not have those prerequisites. Same applies to deer stalking. At the very least the DSC's show a level of knowledge and experience sufficient to show those having the power to allow stalking opportunities that you are 'qualified'.
I appreciate that all the qualifications in the world won't necessarily make you good at what those qualifications are for ( I could be as 'qualified' in 3 months as a stalker with 20 years experience) but that not a failure of the DSC's.

 

[willie_gunn]

As has already been said, it doesn't qualify you to do anything you're not doing already.

Harry

Er...not quite what i said. From what I can see it 'qualifies' you to:

1. be an AW
2. Take on a FC lease (see, for example, http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/deerpermissionitt.pdf/$FILE/deerpermissionitt.pdf).

Whether those mean anything to the individual is down to them to decide.

Gary - I know what you mean, and I largely agree. The 'teaching' is down to individuals and individuals differ. You only have to look on this site to see the differing opinions as to what is, and is not, best practice. To complicate things further, best practice is constantly evolving, to the point where keeping up to date is getting to be a full-time job

Like you, I am pretty sure that there have been instances where people have got their DSC2 and should not have, just as there are people who got a driving license and should not have . What I can't understand is why they do it, since they are kidding no-one but themselves.

Interesting what you say about deciding to shoot less deer. Somewhere or other I read a story about the four ages of stalking - where the focus goes from "how do I shoot a deer", to "how many I've shot", to "how big they are", to "how come I don't shoot deer any more"

willie_gunn

 

[widows son]

This is really an academic question directed at those people that either have a DSC2, are in the process of getting one or are thinking about it.

Im not one for taking courses for the sake of it and was wondering what the reasoning was for others doing it. I am by no means suggesting that this is the case for you but just want a better understanding of what the benefits are in your case?

Pat

Well the level two will suit you right down to the ground," BECAUSE "its not a course, it is a practical assessment of the level one "COURSE" that you've already done , nothing more ,there is NO pass or fail marks, you take a witness or you go out with a witness you shoot as you do every other time you go out, he asks you questions , why you do this and that done, it is not for a witness to tell you you've failed you cannot fail theres nothing to fail .

All it is trying to do is to standardize deer stalking, so the bounds of the health and hygiene are adhered to allowing a safe passage of venison into the food chain .
thats about the only benefit it has .

We all carry out thing differently Best Practice is only one way of carrying it out, some of the things you may have a easier way of doing something so you carry that out .

Benefits Ive yet to find that side of the level two , other than the above mentioned ,as a Approved Witness there isn't any benefits there either ,the older the level two becomes the more difficult it becomes for the AW, started with two pages to fill out took about 10 minutes its now four pages and 3 hours to fill out should be getting easier , lol ,the new green portfolio is a even bigger ball ache there speeding there way to all who require them as I type more fun .

 

[skippy1001]

i am currently sitting my DMQ 2, i like qualifications. i get a great deal of satisfaction from achieving qualifications. thats about it really, some people like watching football, i like to collect qualifications / certificates. the challange.

Skipp.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Hi Pat,

Credibility..

Putting the time and effort in to take the tests wether or not agreeing with the system shows commitment.

Im not saying a man taking xxxx amount of deer every year with no qualifications is less credible or lacking in commitment. But on the face of it when not knowing someone the certificate if passed with integrity tells you that this man is at a recognised level with his stalking abilities and has had the passion and desire to want to learn.

I thoroughly enjoyed my level 1&2, met some great blokes that have become good friends.

Joined a syndicate on 8000 acres belonging to one of my CW's and continue to have countless outings and weekends on the deer with some good men i met whilst taking the course.

Nothing bad to say from me it greatly elevated my stalking and knowledge and am looking forward the the DM course.

In my experience most of the lads ive personally met shouting down the courses leave the most to be desired with their stalking.

ATB

Terry

 

[bambislayer]

I went through the process as I was working for FC at the time and we were the guinea pigs

I would have gone through the training and assessment anyway.

As said before , it is better to leed the way in training rather than having it impossed, and I feel it's good to have standards, I and many others will have criticesd DSC on here many times, I've yet to see someone come up with an alternative.

If I were employing someone or putting out a lease, I would ignore any application without DSC2.

 

[shootingduckdog]

Widow/John

Widows Son/John (yorkshire roe)

I am curious if you could answer the following question.

One of the arguements repeatedly used against the DSC2 is that stalkers of "years and years" experience have nothing to prove and are perfectly capable without the assessment.

The question I ask of you both is wether in doing levels 1 and 2 you learned anything practical or useful? It is an honest question. I took my level 2 with only 4 years experience but I am certain that there were elements of level 1 and 2 that I would have performed very differently if I had simply carried on with what I had learned from my mentors and certain knowledge I may never have picked up.

many thanks

 

[JC275]

Flippancy won't alter the fact that the DSC2 is just a money spinner. As has already been said, it doesn't qualify you to do anything you're not doing already. It's just a pat on the head and "good boy". Once enough people have got it that revenue stops coming in they'll invent DSC 3.

Congratulations Harry, 1hr 33 mins from Pats question until the first whine to come in. I don't think it's a record but good effort all the same. JC

 

[WiltsPat]

Some great response guys thanks for the insight.

I think when im ready to start looking at expanding my horizons past my little permission I may well consider looking in to a DSC2 now even if it isjust to further my experience.

ATB
Pat

 

[Fenlander]

in reply to offroad gary .the stalking comunity is self governing itself,by having these tests voluntary,not having the govt imposing compulsary testing before a fac is issued. persons who generally fail the written tests are guys who do the test only,you learn so much more on the course . the cost would probably be more than if they had done the course in the first place.