Subsonic 308 150g or 220g

Chasey

Well-Known Member
OK so I want to load some trail boss subsonic loads for 308 and I thought I needed to go for the heaviest possible 308 round to maximise efficacy

However I have done some basic research and found a lot of people using 150g?

AM I wrong in thinking the 220g would be better in terms of case load issues and energy?

The trail boss load for 150g heads seems to be 10g so I was thinking of starting my 220g heads at 12 and trying 11.5 and 11.

Any thoughts from the people who actualy know what they are doing:D

ATB

Chasey
 
220gr bullet doesn't stabilise as slow speeds or not fast enough twist and you will see it going through your paper sideways I think
11gr with approx 150gr bullet should do the trick i belive
 
Hello Chasey. There is some good load information on the internet. Also there is a Trail Boss formula for working out loads. My old shooting centre used it for lead bullets loads in .303, 7.62mm x 54R, .30-06 and .308.
 
For sub-sonic 303 & 308 we use around 4.8gr of Viht N310 with a 130 to 168gr cast bullet, this gives MV's around 980fps.

The higher weight .30's (250 to 300gr) stabalise very nicely out of my 16" barrel 300aac Blackout.

If you look on the Hodgdon reloading site they recommend a 150gr with 10gr of Trailboss, it's a nice powder but very expensive compared to say a 1Kg tub of Vhit :)
 
Firstly, you cannot make them 'deer legal', so why are you needing them?
Secondly, you need to be very careful loading partially filled cases or you will experience a phenomena known as 'flashover' where the primer fires over the top of the powder rather than a slow burn into it. The result is a detonation rather than a controlled burn which can blow your rifle to pieces along with you! You can get inert fillers to bulk up the load and fill the case, but you are playing with fire really. Why do you feel need them?
MS
 
^utter tripe - no mention of 'deer legal' and incorrect about imagined "flashover" - please show a proven example of S.E.E.
 
Firstly, you cannot make them 'deer legal', so why are you needing them?
Secondly, you need to be very careful loading partially filled cases or you will experience a phenomena known as 'flashover' where the primer fires over the top of the powder rather than a slow burn into it. The result is a detonation rather than a controlled burn which can blow your rifle to pieces along with you! You can get inert fillers to bulk up the load and fill the case, but you are playing with fire really. Why do you feel need them?
MS

Late night fox / early morning fox without ****ing off the people living in the numerous houses around the farm. Aparently letting go even with a moderated 22/250 at 3am is frowned upon by some people :D

As a result I have been packing up by 10:30 -11pm

And it might be just a fox but I still want the best terminal energy to provide the cleaner kill

Flash over apparently avoided by drilling out the primer holes and some suggest magnum primers.

Case fill issue seems solved using large grained doe-nut shaped slow pistol powder, like trail boss, but I had also believed using a heavier bullet would allow a bigger fill more safety? So having come across some 220g 308 I thought they would be great, but a lot of info on the subs has been for 150g? SO that surprised me

Stabalizing might be the resion


I got the idea after getting my Photon which can have three zero settings so I can overcome the drop issue with a 100 150 200m setting
 
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OK so I want to load some trail boss subsonic loads for 308 and I thought I needed to go for the heaviest possible 308 round to maximise efficacy

However I have done some basic research and found a lot of people using 150g?

AM I wrong in thinking the 220g would be better in terms of case load issues and energy?

The trail boss load for 150g heads seems to be 10g so I was thinking of starting my 220g heads at 12 and trying 11.5 and 11.

Any thoughts from the people who actualy know what they are doing:D

ATB

Chasey


Chasey, Stay with the recommended reduced loads and avoid any risk of 'flashover'.

Hodgdon now own Trail Boss as well as H4895 the recognised and proven reduced powder load recipes.john

Low Recoil Loads | Hodgdon Reloading
 
Late night fox / early morning fox without ****ing off the people living in the numerous houses around the farm. Aparently letting go even with a moderated 22/250 at 3am is frowned upon by some people :D

As a result I have been packing up by 10:30 -11pm

And it might be just a fox but I still want the best terminal energy to provide the cleaner kill

Flash over apparently avoided by drilling out the primer holes and some suggest magnum primers.

Case fill issue seems solved using large grained doe-nut shaped slow pistol powder, like trail boss, but I had also believed using a heavier bullet would allow a bigger fill more safety? So having come across some 220g 308 I thought they would be great, but a lot of info on the subs has been for 150g? SO that surprised me

Stabalizing might be the resion


I got the idea after getting my Photon which can have three zero settings so I can overcome the drop issue with a 100 150 200m setting

If you want a clean kill then are the commonly available UK market .30 calibre 220gr (target or hunting) bullets going to achieve it? Unless you are lucky enough to have access to the 200gr+ bullets designed to expand at subsonic velocities - think Lehigh Defence and similar manufacturers’ offerings primarily for the 300AAC Blackout - then they’ll possibly pencil through, assuming they don’t hit sideways due to stability issues.

Of the big name manufacturers, Nosler produce a 220gr BT bullet that is designed to expand at subsonic velocities, but I’ve yet to see any available over here. Not that they would help you with any stability issues arising from a typical .308 twist. As per my RARR, the 300BLK typically has a twist rate of around 1:7” and can handle the heavier subs without issue, hence the popularity for subsonic medium game hunting in places that allow it.

For close range fox have you considered using something like a 110gr V-Max sub that will still give an equivalent ME to a 17HMR? Suitable powders to work up a load (or should that be down? :D ) could be TrailBoss, Lil’Gun or VV N310.
 
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^utter tripe - no mention of 'deer legal' and incorrect about imagined "flashover" - please show a proven example of S.E.E.
In case you hadn't noticed, this is actually a deer shooting forum and some of us on here do actually shoot deer, so it was probably worth a mention?
As for S.E.E. there are plenty of more knowledgeable folks that seem to accept that it can happen than you or I. Fine if you want to set yourself up for a Darwin Award, but not the sort of thing you should be suggesting to others.
MS
 
In case you hadn't noticed, this is actually a deer shooting forum and some of us on here do actually shoot deer, so it was probably worth a mention?
As for S.E.E. there are plenty of more knowledgeable folks that seem to accept that it can happen than you or I. Fine if you want to set yourself up for a Darwin Award, but not the sort of thing you should be suggesting to others.
MS

The op (weirdo remainer that he is!) said he is using trail boss which was designed for light loads in large cases so I doubt SEE will be an issue and I have to say I’ve yet to see any solid evidence that it’s a thing ? Maybe you could point me towards some scientific evidence where they have consistantly reproduced SEE ?
 
Flashover / pressure wave / detonation issues are related to the use of very slow burning magnum rifle powders in large-case 'over bore capacity' cartridges such as the Weatherby Magnums.

Trail Boss is a pistol powder that has also proven itself as being well suited to very low pressure reduced loads in rifle cartridges. As with other pistol powders, it ignites and burns completely differently from rifle grades. If they didn't, classic revolver target loads such as the 38 Special with a 148gn LHBWC over 2.8gn Bullseye or similar would be destroying handguns all over the place. They use very low fill ratios indeed and when held level (as in shooting the average revolver) the powder charge lies along the entire length of the case less than half way up the sides. There is NO flashover! What is reckoned to happen is that the primer explosion kicks the low density / large area kernels up into a veritable storm of powder kernels and super-hot primer eject material causing the charge to burn very quickly indeed (compared to a conventional rifle cartridge and load) but it still burns, ie doesn't detonate which is the key feature. And yes, such low fill-ratio combinations often produce very variable pressures / MVs depending on charge position, but they (a) work and (b) remain safe.

'Trail Boss' as the name suggests was put into commercial production for US SASS or 'Cowboy Action' shooting events and loads. Because it is very bulky / low density compared to conventional pistol powders such as Titewad, Bullseye, and Unique standard charges take up much more space in the case than more conventional propellants. This has nothing to do with pressures, flashovers or anything similar, but is a safety issue due to the nature of the Cowboy Action disciplines which see lead bullets shot at reactive targets at very close ranges. There are very strict rules re the ammunition as to muzzle energies, bullet weights and types with no metal other than lead allowed not even gas-checks and very low / strict limits on ME levels. This is to avoid damage to targets but more to the dangers of over penetration and ricochets to competitors, competition officials and spectators. With conventional very low fill-ratio light target loads it was found that a whilst a double-charge was unlikely to produce gun-breaking pressures, it could produce dangerous MVs and MEs in the CA environment. With almost everybody using high-output progressive presses, a double-charge is a constant possibility with the careless operator unless charge level warning devices are used. Trail Boss is so bulky that a double-charge will normally over-fill a 38 Spcl or 357 Magnum case making it obvious something is wrong.

In fact if one believes in flashovers and detonations in part filled cases irrespective of other relevant factors, then I'd advise such worriers never, ever to shoot a standard velocity .22LR round. The case was originally designed for a much heavier and bulkier black powder charge and a typical SV .22LR uses 1.5 to 1.7gn of very fast burning pistol type propellant that produces a 25% or so case fill-ratio.

As to the use of wads above low fill-ratio charges with pistol type powders, that was the norm some decades ago. Recent research suggests that cardboard wads or the use of fillers can give very mixed results and in the case of downloaded rifle cartridges with smokeless pistol powders can produce inconsistent and even dangerous effects. So most modern advice such as in the Lyman cast bullet manuals is to avoid them. (Reduced black powder loads are another matter as they require a degree of charge compression and a lube wad is often desirable in BP loads too between charge and bullet base to keep the barrel fouling soft.)
 
Just to add to what Laurie has posted, I've shamelessly pinched this from the Full Bore UK forum, an excellent posting of C E Harris's work on the use of cast boolits in military rifles along with some input from the forums black powder guru and moderator.

Here's the classic standard work for starting shooting military smokeless firearms with cast boolits by E Harris.

CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES

Cast bullets can make shooting that surplus rifle easy and economical.
And basic data works for many different guns.

BY C.E. Harris

Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical field ranges with military battle sights than do full power loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that shoots a foot high at 100 yards with surplus ammo when the sight is as low as it will go! Do not use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up excess empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions of loading. Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898 military rifle from 7mm to 8mm:

1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Hercules #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent.

None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle cases such as the 30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, 7.62x54R Russian , or 30-06. They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of 7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. For bores smaller than 7mm, consult published data.

The Small Game or Gallery" Load

The 110-115 grain bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20 Winchester, such as the Lyman #3118, #311008, #311359, or #311316 are not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a readily available .30 caliber cast small game bullet of the proper 125-130 grain weight. LBT makes a 130 grain flat-nosed gas-check bullet for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver.

The "100 Yard Target and Small Game" Load

I use Mattern's plain-based "100 yard target load" to use up my minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100 yard practice. I substitute my usual gas-checked bullets, but without the gas-check. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman #311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done with these two basic designs.

Bullets I intend for plain based loads are blunted using a flat-nosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes them from my heavier gas-checked loads. This makes more sense to me than casting different bullets.

Bullet preparation is easy. I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without sizing, and are used for plain base plinkers. Bullets which are visually perfect are weighed and sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain for use in 200 yard matches. Gas checks are pressed onto bullet bases by hand prior to running into the lubricator-sizer. For gas-check bullets loaded without the gas- checks, for cases like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and 30-06, I use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning powder. These include, but are not limited to Bullseye, WW231, SR-7625, Green Dot, Red Dot or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9 grains of medium rate burning pistol or shotgun powders, such as Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British or larger.

In the 7.62x39 case, use no more than 4 grains of the fast burning powders mentioned or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. Theses make accurate 50 yard small game loads which let you operate the action manually and save your precious cases. These plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.

Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which are so modified must never be used with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and labeling them clearly to prevent their inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting in rimmed cases like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.

The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise

Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his 100 yard target load because this was common with the lead bullet .32-40 target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with non gas- checked bullets in military rifles at lower velocities approaching match grade .22 long rifle ammunition. I use my "Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both Mattern's "small game" and "100 yard target" loads, though I have lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same purpose. It's report is only a modest "pop" rather than a "crack".

If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal bullet stability, increase the charge no more than a full grain from the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy. If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short for its weight because it will be more easily stabilized. If this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gas-checked bullet and a heavier load.


The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200 yard Target"

My favorite load is the most accurate. Mattern's so-called "200 yard target load." I expect 10 shot groups at 200 yards, firing prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high Sharpshooter, low Expert scores across the course with an issue 03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using may cast bullet loads. The power of this load approximates the 32-40, inadequate for deer by today's standards. Mattern's "200 yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy than harder ones, such as linotype. Local military collector-shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the "universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a 150-180 grain cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use 16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as high power competitors use 168 Sierra Match Kings and 4895.

The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of #2400 provides a maximum load, and which must not be exceeded, is in the tiny 7.63x39mm case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee 312-155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially for the 7.62x39, but it works very well as a light bullet in any .30 or .303 caliber rifle.

Sixteen Grains of #2400 is the Universal Load

The same 16 grain charge of #2400 is universal for all calibers as a starting load. It is mild and accurate in any larger military case from a 30-40 Krag or .303 British up through a 30-06 or 7.9x57, with standard weight bullets of suitable diameter for the caliber. This is my recommendation for anybody trying cast bullets loads for the first time in a military rifle without prior load development. I say this because #2400 is not "position sensitive", requires no fiber fillers to ensure uniform ignition, and actually groups better when you stripper-clip load the rifle and bang them off, rather than tipping the muzzle up to position the powder charge.

Similar ballistics can be obtained with other powders in any case from 7.62x39 to 30-06 size. If you don't have Hercules #2400, you can freely substitute 17 grains of IMR or H4227, 18 grains of 4198, 21 grains of Reloder 7, 24 grains of IMR 3031, or 25.5 grains of 4895 for comparable results.

However, these other powders may give some vertical stringing in cases larger than the 7.62x39 unless the charge is positioned against the primer by tipping the muzzle up before firing. Hercules #2400 does not require this precaution. Don't ask me why. Hercules #2400 usually gives tight clusters only within a narrow range of charge weights within a grain or so, and the "universal" 16 grain load is almost always the best. Believe me, we have spent a lot of time trying to improve on this, and you can take our word for it.

The beauty of the "200 yard target load" at about 1500 f.p.s. is that it can be assembled from bullets cast from the cheapest, inexpensive scrap alloy, and fired all day without having to clean the bore. It always works. Leading is never a problem. Once a uniform bore condition is established, the rifle behaves like a .22 match rifle, perhaps needing a warming shot or two if it has cooled, but otherwise being remarkably consistent.

The only thing I do after a day's shooting with this load is to swab the bore with a couple of wet patches of GI bore cleaner or Hoppe's, and let it soak until the next match. I then follow with three dry patches prior to firing. It takes only about three foulers to get the 03A3 to settle into tight little clusters again.

"Deer and Long Range Target Load"

Mattern's "deer and 600 yard target load" can be assembled in cases of 30-40 Krag capacity or larger up to 30-06 using 18-21 grains of #2400 or 4227, 22-25 grains of 4198, 25-28 grains of RL-7 or 27-30 grains of 4895, which give from 1700-1800 f.p.s., depending on the case size. These charges must not be used in cases smaller than the 303 British without cross checking against published data! The minimum charge should always be used initially, and the charge adjusted within the specified range only as necessary to get best grouping.

Popular folklore suggests a barrel must be near perfect for good results with cast bullets, but this is mostly bunk, though you may have to be persistent.

I have a rusty-bored Finnish M28/30 which I have shot extensively, in making direct comparisons with the same batches of loads on the same day with a mint M28 and there was no difference. The secret in getting a worn bore to shoot acceptably is to remove all prior fouling and corrosion. Then you must continue to clean the bore "thoroughly and often" until it maintains a consistent bore condition over the long term. You must also keep cast bullet loads under 1800 f.p.s. for hunting and under 1600 f.p.s. for target work.

A cleaned and restored bore will usually give good accuracy with cast bullet loads if the bullet fits the chamber throat properly, is well lubricated and the velocities are kept below 1800 f.p.s.

The distinction between throat diameter and groove diameter in determining proper bullet size is important. If you are unable to determine throat diameter from a chamber cast, a rule of thumb is to size bullets .002" over groove diameter, such as .310" for a 30-06, .312" for a 7.63x54R and .314" for a .303 British.

"Oversized 30's", like the .303 British, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine, and 7.62x39 Russian frequently give poor accuracy with .30 caliber cast bullets designed for U.S. barrels having .300 bore and .308 groove dimensions. This is because the part of the bullet ahead of the driving bands receives no guidance from the lands in barrel s of larger bore diameter. The quick rule of thumb to checking proper fit of the forepart is to insert the bullet, nose first, into the muzzle. If it enters clear up to the front driving band without being noticeably engraved, accuracy will seldom be satisfactory.

The forepart is not too large if loaded rounds can be chambered with only slight resistance, the bullet does not telescope back into the case, or stick in the throat when extracted without firing. A properly fitting cast bullet should engrave the forepart positively with the lands, and be no more than .001" under chamber throat diameter on the driving bands. Cast bullets with a tapered forepart at least .002" over bore diameter give the best results.

Many pre-WWII Russian rifles of US make, and later Finnish reworks, particularly those with Swiss barrels by the firm SIG, have very snug chamber necks and cannot be used with bullets over .311" diameter unless case necks are reamed or outside turned to .011" wall thickness to provide safe clearance.

Bullets with a large forepart, like the Lee 312-155-2R or Lyman #314299 work best with the 7.62x54R because the forcing cones are large and gradual. Standard .30 caliber gas-checks are correct.

Finnish 7.62x54R, Russian 7.62x39 and 7.65 Argentine barrels are smaller than Russian 7.62x54R, Chinese 7.62x39, Jap 7.7 or .303 British barrels, and usually have standard .300" bore diameter. (Finnish barrels occasionally are as small as .298") and groove diameters of .310 -.3115".

In getting the best grouping with iron sighted military rifles, eyesight is the limiting factor. Anybody over age 40 who shoots iron sights should equip himself with a "Farr-Sight" from Gil Hebard or Brownell's. This adjustable aperture for your eyeglass frame was intended for indoor pistol shooters, but it helps my iron sight rifle shooting, and adds about 5 points to my score!

So now you have enough fundamentals to get started. If you want to have fun, give that old military rifle a try. You'll never know the fun you've been missing until you try it!.
 
Will a 220grn 30 calibre subsonic bullet be any more accurate than a 42grn .22rf subsonic.
 
Fired from a rifle with a suitable twist rate to stabilise the bullet, then yes - see the 300BLKtalk forum for examples.

It will have nearly 4 times the muzzle energy as well, although without a bullet designed to expand at subsonic velocities it’s a moot point as to what it will achieve when it hits.
 
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In case you hadn't noticed, this is actually a deer shooting forum and some of us on here do actually shoot deer, so it was probably worth a mention?
As for S.E.E. there are plenty of more knowledgeable folks that seem to accept that it can happen than you or I. Fine if you want to set yourself up for a Darwin Award, but not the sort of thing you should be suggesting to others.
MS
I'm not responsible for your flawed assumptions and see that you only hand-wave instead of citing any useful data re S.E.E.

Darwin award - got a mirror?
 
Late night fox / early morning fox without ****ing off the people living in the numerous houses around the farm.
one thing to consider in light of the above is the risk of ricochet. My experience of 308 subs is they're far more prone to bouncing than 22rf and can go anywhere. Be very sure of your backstop.
 
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