DMQ Ban Use of Thermal for Level 2

[smullery]

Is it not that certain technologies are only being banned in the “exam”, just not in the future application?

All our children are now no longer able to have watches, phones, calculators in exams and must be accompanied for toilet breaks during exams. This is the egalitarian way. After achieving the egalitarian “pass” then all are free to progress.

Stan

 

[mudman]

Just ban them full stop.

 

[25 Sharps]

Just ban them full stop.

Why?

 

[mealiejimmy]

Just ban them full stop.

Does that mean you want the law changed to ban the use of thermal spotters completely, just for deer stalking or what.
You need to be considerably more precise in your pronouncements otherwise they do not add anything to the discussion.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[mchughcb]

I just worry the younger/newer generation of stalkers will grow up completely dependant on modern technology and will lose a lot of the skills the old timers have

I find the younger generation quite keen to actually learn whereas the older generation who profess to have great skills turns out the only skills they had was being able to hold a lamp in either hand.

 

[Odders]

Just ban them full stop.

Dumb post.

They're a tool & have their uses. Perhaps the sporting pursuit of deer isn't one of them in your opinion but deer management isn't all about the sporting shot.
I use mine for foxes & other pests.
In fact I have one sitting next to me right now mounted on an air rifle & pointed out the back door, as I've a rat problem in need of addressing.
Perhaps we ought to go back to using iron sights for our stalking, as optics are, after all, some kind of newfangled aid to killing deer...

 

[Overlay]

Like walking on eggs this topic

progressing through and getting to the stage of a competent stalker of Deer you have to have a certain level of skills relating to getting close enough to correctly ID and assess the safe shot and a killing shot and bringing it all together to a successful outcome (ie) grassing a deer

i use my thermal and NV at least 4 times a week in the field on foxes and rabbits, so I’m not a stranger to the use as a fantastic aid to getting the job done, however you have to have a benchmark, just looking through a thermal then switching to NV digital is no comparison with thermal you can’t see the back stop or if there is a clear shot 100% that on its own is a reason not to use deer stalking as you can get whiteout

generally using a decent pair of Binos and a scope is a clear cut way to go on deer - you can see fore and aft, clearly ID - ok there is more work and attention to detail field craft etc involved to getting on a shot, but on a level 2 stalk - ain’t that what it’s all about. ??? Setting your own level of skill and working on it over time once you’ve got to the level you want to be and are fit for purpose you can use whatever you like post L2

L2 isn’t going to make you a super stalker of deer, but it creates a comfortable level of competence which will help anyone to be successful and enjoy your own level of skill

stick with the Binos and a decent scope for your L2 and enjoy it all

good luck

phil

 

[Mungo]

I don’t understand what the fuss is about.

Almost all exam-type assessments in every walk of life restrict access to certain types of resources or tools in order to assess underlying ability.

Doesn’t mean you can’t use them once you pass - it just means you have to show that you CAN do it without if necessary, and understand the underlying logic and skills.

 

[Shootgun]

I don’t understand what the fuss is about.

Almost all exam-type assessments in every walk of life restrict access to certain types of resources or tools in order to assess underlying ability.

Doesn’t mean you can’t use them once you pass - it just means you have to show that you CAN do it without if necessary, and understand the underlying logic and skills.

+1

 

[mchughcb]

I don’t understand what the fuss is about.

Almost all exam-type assessments in every walk of life restrict access to certain types of resources or tools in order to assess underlying ability.

Doesn’t mean you can’t use them once you pass - it just means you have to show that you CAN do it without if necessary, and understand the underlying logic and skills.

Maybe it used to be like that. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff. These days everyone's a winner.

 

[diverdave]

Does that mean you want the law changed to ban the use of thermal spotters completely, just for deer stalking or what.
You need to be considerably more precise in your pronouncements otherwise they do not add anything to the discussion.

Cheers

Bruce

Bruce, you are 100% correct, i wonder if mudman wants them banned from firefighting, automotive, heat insulation, electrical works, and the many other activities thermals are being used for. I have used them for probably 15-20 years now, from huge basic units to todays tiny hand held efforts, deer stalkers are very much the new boys in thermal use.
They are simply an aid to vision, nothing more. Ban glasses, ban binos, ban scopes. It is the same thing. Ban them from all deer related activities? Too late, they are here and being used, and will be until there is a significant law change. With governments wanting less deer, well i cannot see that even being considered. I am however surprised that there are so many people out there who have never actually tried one, and dont understand exactly what they can and cannot show. At this time of year, on the ground that i stalk they are almost no advantage, in 4 months time they are almost vital - those who understand them will know exactly what i mean.
Getting back to the L2 , i dont care if they ban its use in the assessment or not. I am more bothered by the message that sends, that thermal imagers are in some way bad or cheating. Does it make finding deer too easy? The problem i have with this is the same as discussion on only doing suspended grallochs, only using 8 x scopes and what is the best xxxx topics. What will work well for tiny little individual deer in dense cover may not work well on open hill for finding a huge herd species.
Anyway, during a recent discussion with a few AW's and assessors, who were discussing some assessors only accepting suspended grallochs, returning each deer to the larder before shooting the next and so on, and then also arguing against this, in the environment we shoot in, then to me this clearly showing varying levels of understanding within the assessment process. In my working life i was an assessor so am very familiar with how an assessed portfolio should work. Banning the use of a tool that is already being used in the field, and that is actively promoted for everything from safety to animal welfare would appear to be a very backward step.

 

[Highlandsjohn]

Bruce, you are 100% correct, i wonder if mudman wants them banned from firefighting, automotive, heat insulation, electrical works, and the many other activities thermals are being used for. I have used them for probably 15-20 years now, from huge basic units to todays tiny hand held efforts, deer stalkers are very much the new boys in thermal use.
They are simply an aid to vision, nothing more. Ban glasses, ban binos, ban scopes. It is the same thing. Ban them from all deer related activities? Too late, they are here and being used, and will be until there is a significant law change. With governments wanting less deer, well i cannot see that even being considered. I am however surprised that there are so many people out there who have never actually tried one, and dont understand exactly what they can and cannot show. At this time of year, on the ground that i stalk they are almost no advantage, in 4 months time they are almost vital - those who understand them will know exactly what i mean.
Getting back to the L2 , i dont care if they ban its use in the assessment or not. I am more bothered by the message that sends, that thermal imagers are in some way bad or cheating. Does it make finding deer too easy? The problem i have with this is the same as discussion on only doing suspended grallochs, only using 8 x scopes and what is the best xxxx topics. What will work well for tiny little individual deer in dense cover may not work well on open hill for finding a huge herd species.
Anyway, during a recent discussion with a few AW's and assessors, who were discussing some assessors only accepting suspended grallochs, returning each deer to the larder before shooting the next and so on, and then also arguing against this, in the environment we shoot in, then to me this clearly showing varying levels of understanding within the assessment process. In my working life i was an assessor so am very familiar with how an assessed portfolio should work. Banning the use of a tool that is already being used in the field, and that is actively promoted for everything from safety to animal welfare would appear to be a very backward step.

Good post,well stated . john.

 

[rem284]

Bruce, you are 100% correct, i wonder if mudman wants them banned from firefighting, automotive, heat insulation, electrical works, and the many other activities thermals are being used for. I have used them for probably 15-20 years now, from huge basic units to todays tiny hand held efforts, deer stalkers are very much the new boys in thermal use.
They are simply an aid to vision, nothing more. Ban glasses, ban binos, ban scopes. It is the same thing. Ban them from all deer related activities? Too late, they are here and being used, and will be until there is a significant law change. With governments wanting less deer, well i cannot see that even being considered. I am however surprised that there are so many people out there who have never actually tried one, and dont understand exactly what they can and cannot show. At this time of year, on the ground that i stalk they are almost no advantage, in 4 months time they are almost vital - those who understand them will know exactly what i mean.
Getting back to the L2 , i dont care if they ban its use in the assessment or not. I am more bothered by the message that sends, that thermal imagers are in some way bad or cheating. Does it make finding deer too easy? The problem i have with this is the same as discussion on only doing suspended grallochs, only using 8 x scopes and what is the best xxxx topics. What will work well for tiny little individual deer in dense cover may not work well on open hill for finding a huge herd species.
Anyway, during a recent discussion with a few AW's and assessors, who were discussing some assessors only accepting suspended grallochs, returning each deer to the larder before shooting the next and so on, and then also arguing against this, in the environment we shoot in, then to me this clearly showing varying levels of understanding within the assessment process. In my working life i was an assessor so am very familiar with how an assessed portfolio should work. Banning the use of a tool that is already being used in the field, and that is actively promoted for everything from safety to animal welfare would appear to be a very backward step.

Very good and valid points. I had controlled deer for about a decade before I heard of suspended grallochs, I have never done one and dont think I ever will.

Back to the point of the level 2 ban. I can see a valid point in the sense that they might be wanting people to demonstrate they have a good ability to do the basics with the basic optical equipment. However I wonder how they would feel if someone said they dont use binos because its an unfair advantage.

I think it takes along time for people to accept change in the shooting world. A few years ago a scope that had any mag over 8x was virtually unheard of and 4 or 6 was more the norm. Powerful zoom scopes are now the norm.

 

[75]

I tend not to get drawn into these threads on thermals, but as someone who owns and uses one, I do often wonder whether those who are calling for their ban have ever tried one.

Yes, they can be useful for spotting deer in thick woodland, but very little advantage on open ground during legal shooting hours. And once you've spotted a deer, the thermal won't get you into position or take the shot for you...

They're another tool, but I really don't see them as the huge game changer some think they are.

 

[swesandy]

Bruce, you are 100% correct, i wonder if mudman wants them banned from firefighting, automotive, heat insulation, electrical works, and the many other activities thermals are being used for. I have used them for probably 15-20 years now, from huge basic units to todays tiny hand held efforts, deer stalkers are very much the new boys in thermal use.
They are simply an aid to vision, nothing more. Ban glasses, ban binos, ban scopes. It is the same thing. Ban them from all deer related activities? Too late, they are here and being used, and will be until there is a significant law change. With governments wanting less deer, well i cannot see that even being considered. I am however surprised that there are so many people out there who have never actually tried one, and dont understand exactly what they can and cannot show. At this time of year, on the ground that i stalk they are almost no advantage, in 4 months time they are almost vital - those who understand them will know exactly what i mean.
Getting back to the L2 , i dont care if they ban its use in the assessment or not. I am more bothered by the message that sends, that thermal imagers are in some way bad or cheating. Does it make finding deer too easy? The problem i have with this is the same as discussion on only doing suspended grallochs, only using 8 x scopes and what is the best xxxx topics. What will work well for tiny little individual deer in dense cover may not work well on open hill for finding a huge herd species.
Anyway, during a recent discussion with a few AW's and assessors, who were discussing some assessors only accepting suspended grallochs, returning each deer to the larder before shooting the next and so on, and then also arguing against this, in the environment we shoot in, then to me this clearly showing varying levels of understanding within the assessment process. In my working life i was an assessor so am very familiar with how an assessed portfolio should work. Banning the use of a tool that is already being used in the field, and that is actively promoted for everything from safety to animal welfare would appear to be a very backward step.

Well said! Anything that makes you more aware of your surroundings and therefore safer cannot be knocked. The safety aspect is a big plus point for me, obviously it does not negate the need for safe shooting practices, backstops etc! but only the other day I turned up at a permission and using the thermal immediately spotted some kids playing in the undergrowth 400 yards away that would of been difficult to spot with binos, not the first time something similar has happened. Also you develop a whole new skill set once you become proficient using one. You do see a lot more deer but also a lot more unshootable deer as well.

 

[mcbuck]

PKL cheers... I must say there is not many people on here that talk sense. All I can say is learn to stalk deer the right way and don't lose your skills for those people who think its right to always use the dreaded thermal

PS ive been stalking for nearly 30years and not shot anyone...maybe I'm a very safe gun?

 

[25 Sharps]

PKL cheers... I must say there is not many people on here that talk sense. All I can say is learn to stalk deer the right way and don't lose your skills for those people who think its right to always use the dreaded thermal

PS ive been stalking for nearly 30years and not shot anyone...maybe I'm a very safe gun?

What is 'the right way' out of interest? No optics?

I'd hedge a bet that most people that use them do other shooting for which they are very useful and that is their main reason for having one but they are useful for deer too, doesn't mean they can't stalk without it.

 

[mcbuck]

well said sikamalc 100% agree
McBuck.

 

[mchughcb]

Thermal and Gen2 are restricted ITAR items. Thats because the USA wants to maintain tactical advantage on the battlefield.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Thermal and Gen2 are restricted ITAR items. Thats because the USA wants to maintain tactical advantage on the battlefield.

When it comes to other professional armies (China, Russia etc) the USA does not have a significant advantage in NV or thermal kit. ITAR merely means that thermal and NV with performance above a certain limit cannot be exported from the USA without a licence.
The fact is that the bulk of thermal kit is manufactured in Europe and China, to which ITAR does not apply.
FLIR are continually pushing the US government to change the ITAR regulations so that they can start to compete in markets outwith the USA for sales of thermal imagers.
In the UK, because ITAR restricts their products to a maximum refresh rate of 9Hz, FLIR are a very minor player in the thermal scope/spotter market. Pulsar, and Chinese manufactured thermal kit have the vast majority of the market. Even ATN, an American company who has their thermal kit manufactured in China bring their scopes and spotters into the UK directly from China, thus avoiding ITAR.

Cheers

Bruce