So . . . .

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I notice the Irish are saying the ''back stop'' cannot be negotiated away

There is loads wrong with May's deal - the back stop is only part of it

The Irish and EU have real problems

...

It's a real problem - BUT NOT OURS !

Why are we making it our problem ????

Quite right there is absolutely nothing wrong with a border, in fact, why wouldn't any self-respecting nation have strong border security, for example that between friendly neighbours USA and Canada? France, Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden & Denmark have all recently suspended the Schengen (free movement) treaty, re-introducing border controls, with Austria recently deploying armoured vehicles to some border crossings. The terrorists involved in the 2015 Paris attacks moved at will across porous EU borders before and after the attacks that left 129 dead and 300+ wounded. The risk of such attacks taking place and succeeding is reduced with border controls.

What the British people weren't told by the deceitful Blair adminsitration about the NI/Irish border in the the Good Friday Agreement is this: removal of visible border posts and markings were a major concession to the IRA; the IRA could tell their supporters that they had won their 'war' resulting in the visible security presence and country markings being removed. This was positioned as being major progress towards a united Ireland.

For that reason, as well as prevention of people & drug trafficking, cigarette, weapons, explosives & laundered fuel smuggling, terrorism, tax evasion and other criminality the re-imposition of NI border posts is a good thing.

An added bonus is that nothing would say Brexit better to the EU than British soldiers at a number of NI/ROI border crossings on 30/03/2019, with weapons held in the high port position.
 
Pine Marten you keep banging on about France but you chose to live here says it all
I'm both French and British. I was born here and mostly have always lived here. I went to a French school. Then a British university. I have always lived across two countries, two languages, two cultures. At least. Because then you throw alsace in. These are all mutually enriching things that do not exclude one another. But the Alsace side of me tells me that people insisting on picking sides, languages, nationalities etc leads to bad juju. So to me, this entire saga is about quite a lot more than stuff about free trade or imagined versions of sovereignty, or etymology. It's very personal.
 
So name one?

Of course in doing so you cant include ones that are in far reaching trade groups like

European Union
Members:
Austria: Belgium: Cyprus; Czech Republic; Denmark; Estonia; Finland; France; Germany; Greece; Hungary; Ireland; Italy; Latvia; Lithuania; Luxembourg; Malta; Netherlands; Poland; Portugal; Slovakia; Slovenia; Spain; Sweden; United Kingdom

APEC
Members: Australia; Brunei; Canada; Chile; China; Hong Kong; Indonesia; Japan; South Korea; Malaysia; Mexico; New Zealand; Papua New Guinea; Peru; Philippines; Russia; Singapore; Taiwan; Thailand; United States; Vietnam

G20
Members:
Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, China, Cuba, Egypt, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan, Paraguay, Philippines, South Africa, Thailand, Tanzania, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zimbabwe


NAFTA
Members:
Canada; Mexico; United States


CAIRNS Group
Members:
Argentina; Australia; Bolivia; Brazil; Canada; Chile; Colombia; Costa Rica; Guatemala; Indonesia; Malaysia; New Zealand; Paraguay; Philippines; South Africa; Thailand; Uruguay

Russian Federation
Memebers
obvious

China
Members
Obvious

OPEC
Members:
Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela,Qatar, Indonesia, Libya, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Nigeria, Ecuador, Gabon, Angola, Equatorial Guinea and Congo.

A useful list which highlights a powerful and fundamental Leave point: many countries in trading blocks other than the EU also have deals with other nations, and are free to broker those terms to the satisfaction of their citizens.

The EU system is unique in its exclusivity. Nations within the EU are [by Treaty of Lisbon] not allowed to enter into treaty with any other nation except where brokered by the EU. Thanks for another good point.
 
So name one?

Of course in doing so you cant include ones that are in far reaching trade groups like

European Union
Members:
Austria: Belgium: Cyprus; Czech Republic; Denmark; Estonia; Finland; France; Germany; Greece; Hungary; Ireland; Italy; Latvia; Lithuania; Luxembourg; Malta; Netherlands; Poland; Portugal; Slovakia; Slovenia; Spain; Sweden; United Kingdom

APEC
Members: Australia; Brunei; Canada; Chile; China; Hong Kong; Indonesia; Japan; South Korea; Malaysia; Mexico; New Zealand; Papua New Guinea; Peru; Philippines; Russia; Singapore; Taiwan; Thailand; United States; Vietnam

G20
Members:
Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, China, Cuba, Egypt, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan, Paraguay, Philippines, South Africa, Thailand, Tanzania, Uruguay, Venezuela, Zimbabwe


NAFTA
Members:
Canada; Mexico; United States


CAIRNS Group
Members:
Argentina; Australia; Bolivia; Brazil; Canada; Chile; Colombia; Costa Rica; Guatemala; Indonesia; Malaysia; New Zealand; Paraguay; Philippines; South Africa; Thailand; Uruguay

Russian Federation
Memebers
obvious

China
Members
Obvious

OPEC
Members:
Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela,Qatar, Indonesia, Libya, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Nigeria, Ecuador, Gabon, Angola, Equatorial Guinea and Congo.
Membership of none of the above groups involves political union, the surrender of sovereignty, the erasing of national borders or subservience to the jurisdiction of foreign courts. It is a pointless comparison between apples and pears.
 
I'm both French and British. I was born here and mostly have always lived here. I went to a French school. Then a British university. I have always lived across two countries, two languages, two cultures. At least. Because then you throw alsace in. These are all mutually enriching things that do not exclude one another. But the Alsace side of me tells me that people insisting on picking sides, languages, nationalities etc leads to bad juju. So to me, this entire saga is about quite a lot more than stuff about free trade or imagined versions of sovereignty, or etymology. It's very personal.
I was born in Coventry & have an Irish mother/grandparents, Canadian father with his Cornish parents, and for the last 39 years have a German partner & have since adopted her adult daughter who still lives in Munich with her daughter. So it is very hard for me to place anywhere as a permanent home / patriotic homeland. People move around and as long as they adapt & fit into to the place they settled in "which seems to be quite different every 200 miles going in any direction" Bradford seems to go against this though. I just think a jingoism/little englander mindset is a defunct attitude in a growing global world.
BB
 
Membership of none of the above groups involves political union, the surrender of sovereignty, the erasing of national borders or subservience to the jurisdiction of foreign courts. It is a pointless comparison between apples and pears.
Certainly the others are not as deep in structure or as effective in delivery.
Europe is after all, largely a developed and mature economy.
 
I just think a jingoism/little englander mindset is a defunct attitude in a growing global world.BB

Really!
So although you’re born in Coventry and have a rather cosmopolitan background/life, you think those of us wishing to leave the EU and have the UK’s ENTIRE sovereignty back, are suffering from a defunct Little Englander attitude?
How completely wrong you are.
Astonishing!
Plainly you have no concept of the depth of feeling or reasoning of those of us who want to exit the EU.
You need to leave your British side behind and stay out of the country you’d so readily betray.
 
...I just think a jingoism/little englander mindset is a defunct attitude in a growing global world.BB

Not sure what that statement is supposed to mean in the context of this thread. The Brexit [leave] proposition distils to a desire to halt UK sovereignty erosion. A rejection of this EU construct. Why does wanting that provoke "little englander mindset" pejoration from remainers? I find that utterly baffling. The pro sovereignty, pro leave folk on this thread have lived and worked in many parts of the world. They are global people. They are not parochial xenophobic pedants. Clearly they are not idiots.

I have always been averse to generalisation in the leave/remain debate. But there is a definite trend on forums, in pub conversations, and in the MSM stretching back to 2016. And it is this: Leave state why they find that position superior. Remain then declare what baser reason the leave person actually used to arrive at that decision. Remainers typically disregard reasoning supplied by the leave proponents. Typically the reverse is not true: I do not find pro leave advocates trying to interpret the motivations behind those that adopt a leave. They try to engage on the data and specifics of any given argument.

If this nation is to return to any kind of unified coherence post March, it will definitely require that we desist from name calling and second guessing motives. Listen to the other side's spiel. Test what is said. Explain why you disagree. Agree to differ. But labelling? Name-calling? Zero upside.
 
...Europe is after all, largely a developed and mature economy.

Per stats supplied earlier in this thread, the EU's market share of the global economy is shrinking! So mature in what regard? Bureacratic bloat? The data below is supplied by the EU itself. The admin overhead is huge. I am not persuaded that locked in the EU has a good financial prognosis.

EU2017Expenditure.webp
 
Still the same voices of dissent I see.
Those with dual nationality, or working for who ever pays the most and those wanting to remain are one and the same.
Maybe its time for you all to make a decision on your chosen nationality and then go where that takes you, because it seems your never going to be happy here.

Neil.
 
Still the same voices of dissent I see.
Those with dual nationality, or working for who ever pays the most and those wanting to remain are one and the same.
Maybe its time for you all to make a decision on your chosen nationality and then go where that takes you, because it seems your never going to be happy here.

Neil.

OK, you see, now you're really not being nice at all. And neither are the people telling us to book removal vans and tickets out. That's just saying you're more British than us, so we can go back to where we came from, although that happens to be here, as well as somewhere else. Once again: there is no conflict with having multiple identities, and it is an increasingly common thing, and it is valuable to have both an internal and external perspective on these matters. When people say that we miserable Remainers don't understand your point of view, they are quite wrong: we do. We just don't agree.
 
OK, you see, now you're really not being nice at all. And neither are the people telling us to book removal vans and tickets out. That's just saying you're more British than us, so we can go back to where we came from, although that happens to be here, as well as somewhere else. Once again: there is no conflict with having multiple identities, and it is an increasingly common thing, and it is valuable to have both an internal and external perspective on these matters. When people say that we miserable Remainers don't understand your point of view, they are quite wrong: we do. We just don't agree.

In my opinion this is racism!

Not by colour of skin, but by nationality, this is unacceptable, especially by people who are so called law abiding FAC holders.
 
To add to the above comments on how this whole lie that has been sold during the campaign with no clear plan to leave something that has never been designed for anyone to leave it .... so my £0.02 - i love how lots of folks ride on the 2% that swung the votes .... importantly anyone who lived abroad for over 25 years (INCLUDING those who become British or Dual citizens after their 25th birthday like me and my wife and all my scientists colleagues) were not allowed to vote on this ... Most of these people (from experience) would have voted to stay so guess what percentage of this demographic group is of the total adult population .... hint way above 2% ... this whole thing is a mess form the start ... a second referendum would show how people feel (still without 'us') now that all information on leaving is on the table ...
 
I'm going to stop reading this thread now, but I would like to add one last thing. I am shocked about the amount of name calling and arrogant lack of common courtesy shown on this thread from supposed adults. Just like parliament there seems to be many who are only interested in their own personal agenda and don't give a damn about trying to find some common ground and a way forward that will benefit The United kingdom and all of her people, regardless of race, religion, colour or political standpoint
 
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