So . . . .

[Bavarianbrit]

Really!
So although you’re born in Coventry and have a rather cosmopolitan background/life, you think those of us wishing to leave the EU and have the UK’s ENTIRE sovereignty back, are suffering from a defunct Little Englander attitude?
How completely wrong you are.
Astonishing!
Plainly you have no concept of the depth of feeling or reasoning of those of us who want to exit the EU.
You need to leave your British side behind and stay out of the country you’d so readily betray.

I am not betraying it and would never **** on it either.
I just do not feel there is much left here to get exited about of that whicht I really liked about it when I left and started out travelling the world for work in 1977 which was simply caused by the demise of the UK car design business.
If that had not happened in my field I may never have had my eyes opened up to the world as it simply appears to me to be.
BB

 

[Bavarianbrit]

To add to the above comments on how this whole lie that has been sold during the campaign with no clear plan to leave something that has never been designed for anyone to leave it .... so my £0.02 - i love how lots of folks ride on the 2% that swung the votes .... importantly anyone who lived abroad for over 25 years (INCLUDING those who become British or Dual citizens after their 25th birthday like me and my wife and all my scientists colleagues) were not allowed to vote on this ... Most of these people (from experience) would have voted to stay so guess what percentage of this demographic group is of the total adult population .... hint way above 2% ... this whole thing is a mess form the start ... a second referendum would show how people feel (still without 'us') now that all information on leaving is on the table ...

I drove back from Bavaria only to vote in 2016 as I have a home in Dover that entitles me to vote here. I cared that much about the folly.
BB

 

[Woodsmoke]

Stop whilst I wet myself laughing

You won't make many friends on either side by being a dogmatic asshole, mate. Just saying

 

[zambezi]

The judgement of history hasn't been kind to the Versailles Treaty. Whence perhaps why after WW2, they decided to try something else. Whatever else you may say, ever since the Treaty of Rome, there's been no more fighting between France and Germany, to everyone's benefit. Previously, we always tried to prevent the next war by building the Maginot Line, or invading the Rhineland, buying shedloads of guns, etc. Didn't work. But bringing the two countries really close together, well, that's made war not only unthinkable but actually physically almost impossible. Which was the stated objective. So a result.

The aggregation of European nation states to prevent repetition of the 19th and 20th century conflagrations is definitely a centre piece of the Federal Europe architecture from incept. But it is debatable whether the Treaty of Rome or the US engagement in NATO are the primary reasons for the peace we have known since the last war. I also think the rise of social media and travel have had a significant impact in bringing Europeans together.

Regardless, would a Federally unified Europe that is headed up by an unelected Council of Ministers feel more or less empowered to flex their muscles regionally? The EU actively denounced Russia's Crimean occupation. I am concerned that President Donald Tusk might like to add metal to his words regarding the Ukraine.

Currently, as relatively minnow states, we are not likely to lurch into major geopolitical aggressions. And under the NATO umbrella we have common purpose so no percentage in Alsace-esque escapades either. Best of all, by retaining robust and complete domestic electoral franchise we can evict any wannabe Il Duce leaders in short order. Not so in a devolved EU plutocracy...

 

[mchughcb]

Care to discuss?

Yes . Poor clarke died a couple of years ago of a heart attack while bush walking but he was well known for his sharp satire and pretty much on the money with dawes with his commentary on politics.

 

[oowee]

Sir Ivan Rogers Permanent Rep to the EU from 2013 to 2017 when he resigned so fully tainted by everything remain but he knows better than most how the process works. Worth a read of how he believes we are where we are. It's a fair bit of reading but it covers much of the issues succinctly.

 

[oowee]

Per stats supplied earlier in this thread, the EU's market share of the global economy is shrinking! So mature in what regard? Bureacratic bloat? The data below is supplied by the EU itself. The admin overhead is huge. I am not persuaded that locked in the EU has a good financial prognosis.

Mature in the sense that we are no longer agile as a nation. We trade in mature established markets. Our labour costs and working overheads make it difficult to compete against rising nations based on price. We are seeing a whitling away of our competitive advantage as other nations gradually overhaul our position. We will compete based upon our knowledge economy and this will slow the rate of attrition. Membership of large trade blocks will help to maintain our market place by erecting barriers to trade around quality standards and style.

Ultimately we have to face the reality that our standard of living and life style is not supported by our output and production. We do not want to work harder longer and for less money so we have to find other ways around the issue. We must invest heavily in education.

 

[User00025]

Mature in the sense that we are no longer agile as a nation. We must invest heavily in education.

You do jest of course, have you looked at probably 60% of today's kids. They talk about 35 in a class being a lot, there were 42 in my class 65 years ago,but then we had discipline not like the Kevin and Perry's that we have going to school now. Invest in education so that they can take a degree in sweet sucking or the life of a rapper, you're better than all the old comedians put together. Get real those who are bright enough will get there, the others will get what they deserve.

 

[oowee]

You do jest of course, have you looked at probably 60% of today's kids. They talk about 35 in a class being a lot, there were 42 in my class 65 years ago,but then we had discipline not like the Kevin and Perry's that we have going to school now. Invest in education so that they can take a degree in sweet sucking or the life of a rapper, you're better than all the old comedians put together. Get real those who are bright enough will get there, the others will get what they deserve.

Yep thats pretty much what we are doing now.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Get real those who are bright enough will get there, the others will get what they deserve.

Yep, it's called "Brexit"!

K

 

[zambezi]

Mature in the sense that we are no longer agile as a nation... We must invest heavily in education.

Thanks for clarification. There is substance in this statement, but also pessimistic capitulation. I think now is the time to thrust our nation back into the crucible that is WTO/FTA. It will force our hand to become more agile and creative. It will force government to put industry relevant education at the top of their agenda. There will never be a better time to do this.

The converse is true: If remain part of the Customs Union, and hide behind protectionist EU trade barriers, then we will have less incentive to innovate and will fall with that block on what looks to be an inexorable slide into ever reducing global market share.

 

[User00025]

Yep, it's called "Brexit"!

K

Nice of you to agree that the leavers are the bright ones.

 

[oowee]

Thanks for clarification. There is substance in this statement, but also pessimistic capitulation. I think now is the time to thrust our nation back into the crucible that is WTO/FTA. It will force our hand to become more agile and creative. It will force government to put industry relevant education at the top of their agenda. There will never be a better time to do this.

The converse is true: If remain part of the Customs Union, and hide behind protectionist EU trade barriers, then we will have less incentive to innovate and will fall with that block on what looks to be an inexorable slide into ever reducing global market share.

Dropping down to WTO terms starts the UK at the lowest possible starting point from which to re negotiate our way back to a sensible trading arrangement. It makes no sense to give up on the very favourable trade deals that we already have with our biggest trading partners to start again from a third country status.

It's not about government incentive for change. It's about the electorate facing hard choices and voting for change. Voting for change that forces them to face upto the realities of the global economy. We have seen from recent demonstrations in France how well these changes are received. We change by default. our first past the post version of democracy does not allow long term investment in structural change. We are more likely to wallow from failures on the left and right of politics than find a middle road to modernisation.

 

[JTO]

A friend of mine and his wife flew back from their retirement home in France to vote for the UK to LEAVE.

 

[enfieldspares]

A friend of mine and his wife flew back from their retirement home in France to vote for the UK to LEAVE.

What? Not (Lord) Nigel Lawson? Get away! He was my MP. I was at his Adoption Meeting in 1974 as Tory candidate for the Constituency.

 

[zambezi]

Dropping down to WTO terms starts the UK at the lowest possible starting point from which to re negotiate our way back to a sensible trading arrangement. It makes no sense to give up on the very favourable trade deals that we already have with our biggest trading partners to start again from a third country status.

It's not about government incentive for change. It's about the electorate facing hard choices and voting for change. Voting for change that forces them to face upto the realities of the global economy. We have seen from recent demonstrations in France how well these changes are received. We change by default. our first past the post version of democracy does not allow long term investment in structural change. We are more likely to wallow from failures on the left and right of politics than find a middle road to modernisation.

That is quite a gloomy take on the UK political and social landscape. I guess some of us who voted leave are more upbeat. History has shown that this country fares well when unified in adversity. Bipartisan pragmatism has come to the fore previously, it will again. So I still put my vote that direction.

As at the referendum in 2016, I am fairly sure that Cameron and Clegg [and a myriad others] believed the EU project would win its final rosette at a jog trot. And if the EU were a purely collaborative trading block as put to the 1975 electorate, it would have won by a landslide. It would have got my vote...

...But it is not just a mutual benefit trade unit. Its helmsman seek so much more. There is the rub. And despite the government throwing huge money into their campaign, the people still saw the bigger anti-democracy cracks in the EU plan. And I applaud the gumption of those who voted against the ursurping of our democracy. Money is not everything.

Now where did I put that jar of woad...

 

[JTO]

What? Not (Lord) Nigel Lawson? Get away! He was my MP. I was at his Adoption Meeting in 1974 as Tory candidate for the Constituency.

No, a retired MoD electrician, who worked on navy ships and army fighting vehicles.

 

[oowee]

That is quite a gloomy take on the UK political and social landscape. I guess some of us who voted leave are more upbeat. History has shown that this country fares well when unified in adversity. Bipartisan pragmatism has come to the fore previously, it will again. So I still put my vote that direction.

As at the referendum in 2016, I am fairly sure that Cameron and Clegg [and a myriad others] believed the EU project would win its final rosette at a jog trot. And if the EU were a purely collaborative trading block as put to the 1975 electorate, it would have won by a landslide. It would have got my vote...

...But it is not just a mutual benefit trade unit. Its helmsman seek so much more. There is the rub. And despite the government throwing huge money into their campaign, the people still saw the bigger anti-democracy cracks in the EU plan. And I applaud the gumption of those who voted against the ursurping of our democracy. Money is not everything.

Now where did I put that jar of woad...

I hear a lot of what the EU is not but what I do not hear is where this promised land that is outside the EU is to be found. How will the UK find the exit utopia. All i hear is promises of unicorns in the land of dreams. Trade deals with who, how and for what at what cost? Rather than voting to be free we are voting to be alone.

 

[mchughcb]

What it means if there is negotiations to be had then the UK can move as fast as it needs to. I just really can't understand this defeatist attitude and chicken little view of the world.

 

[zambezi]

I hear a lot of what the EU is not but what I do not hear is where this promised land that is outside the EU is to be found. How will the UK find the exit utopia. All i hear is promises of unicorns in the land of dreams. Trade deals with who, how and for what at what cost? Rather than voting to be free we are voting to be alone.

Chasey's post #1325 was quite illuminating in this regard. It suggested that there are no stand alone nations, all need and use trading blocks to survive and he used that list as a reason why we had to stay in the EU. But look a little closer: many nations (as long as they are not shackled to the EU Treaty of Lisbon) appear in multiple trade groupings.

If you then research what other trade agreements those nations have that Chasey did not mention, you see a spider's web of commercial mutuality.

Argentina, South Africa, Australia...