foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Unless someone shoots them over my shoulder mate then yes from a muntie to the largest red stag .All with 100gr win xxx soft nose .Whats hard to take in .
Deer calibers and bullets, Meat loss?
- Thread starter captdavid
- Start date
There are so many variables and so many options it's no wonder the subject confuses us all.
We have to remember that the chambering we choose to use just launches the bullet and has nothing to do with meat damage. It's terminal velocity, bullet weight and bullet construction that count. You can put forward an argument for frontal area which would be valid, but in truth the difference is minor between .243 and .308 compared to bullet construction and TV.
Different bullets react in different ways depending on their TV. For example, run a 100gr ProHunter in a 243 at 3150fps and shoot Roe at 50 yds and it will be very explosive, show significant fragmentation and do a lot of damage. Hit the same deer with the same bullet with a TV of 2600 fps and it will behave very differently, fragment less and do far less damage.
From what I have experienced over the years I like to use an Accubond (Long Range in some of the rifles and standard in others). Launch it between 2800fps and 2900fps and it works well from 50yds to 400 yds, probably further. Meat damage is very acceptable and it's very humane, killing quickly, fragmenting in the front 40% and remaining solid in the back 60%. Always exits, always produces a good blood trail.
I have used SST's and Nosler BT's but find that TV has to get down to 2500fps and below before damage is acceptable. They kill very well if you're a LR specialist as does the Amax, but TV has to be low and if you take a shot up close and you will make a mess.
I have used Barnes TTSX and LRX which were excellent if launched much faster, around 3000fps. They flew very straight, expanded well and didn't fragment at all. They killed quickly and efficiently but they always exited at pace and rightly or wrongly I got a bit twitchy about deflection and ricochet in areas that had a lot of footpaths and dog walkers. They did surprisingly little meat damage considering the velocity, never ruptured the diaphragm and I got a very large % of bang flops. If shooting a bit further out (over 300 yds) I wouldn't trust them to expand sufficiently however. I wouldn't take a neck shot with them either as the lack of fragmentation makes the target a bit too small.
Placement too makes a big difference. If you are a head and neck specialist you want a seriously fragmenting bullet. I know a couple of stalkers who just shoot head and neck and kill everything with a 55gr BK in very fast 22's. It works for them, but when they need to take a recovery chest shot at 300 yds they are in trouble. A chest/shoulder shot needs something a little more stout.
Go to NZ or some part os the US where a 600yd plus shot is common and you need bullets that expand reliably at 2000fps. The Amax (replaced by the ELDX/M) and the Berger are king here. They wouldn't touch a monolithic bullet with a barge pole and are pretty scathing about most bonded bullets. It's a very different style of shooting to most of ours.
You have to match the construction of the bullet to it's terminal velocity and the type of shooting YOU do.
In terms of species I think the Scots have got it right. I would much rather shoot Roe with a 60 or 70 grain bullet, it's as much as they need and drops them just as quickly as a 100gr doing less damage. All Fallow and Red and Sika hinds are fine with 100gr but I always go 130gr or 150gr when shooting Red and Sika Stags. If I was shooting lowland red hinds I might move up to 130's too, but I have never experienced that so am not really qualified to comment.
Just my view, others I'm sure are different.
We have to remember that the chambering we choose to use just launches the bullet and has nothing to do with meat damage. It's terminal velocity, bullet weight and bullet construction that count. You can put forward an argument for frontal area which would be valid, but in truth the difference is minor between .243 and .308 compared to bullet construction and TV.
Different bullets react in different ways depending on their TV. For example, run a 100gr ProHunter in a 243 at 3150fps and shoot Roe at 50 yds and it will be very explosive, show significant fragmentation and do a lot of damage. Hit the same deer with the same bullet with a TV of 2600 fps and it will behave very differently, fragment less and do far less damage.
From what I have experienced over the years I like to use an Accubond (Long Range in some of the rifles and standard in others). Launch it between 2800fps and 2900fps and it works well from 50yds to 400 yds, probably further. Meat damage is very acceptable and it's very humane, killing quickly, fragmenting in the front 40% and remaining solid in the back 60%. Always exits, always produces a good blood trail.
I have used SST's and Nosler BT's but find that TV has to get down to 2500fps and below before damage is acceptable. They kill very well if you're a LR specialist as does the Amax, but TV has to be low and if you take a shot up close and you will make a mess.
I have used Barnes TTSX and LRX which were excellent if launched much faster, around 3000fps. They flew very straight, expanded well and didn't fragment at all. They killed quickly and efficiently but they always exited at pace and rightly or wrongly I got a bit twitchy about deflection and ricochet in areas that had a lot of footpaths and dog walkers. They did surprisingly little meat damage considering the velocity, never ruptured the diaphragm and I got a very large % of bang flops. If shooting a bit further out (over 300 yds) I wouldn't trust them to expand sufficiently however. I wouldn't take a neck shot with them either as the lack of fragmentation makes the target a bit too small.
Placement too makes a big difference. If you are a head and neck specialist you want a seriously fragmenting bullet. I know a couple of stalkers who just shoot head and neck and kill everything with a 55gr BK in very fast 22's. It works for them, but when they need to take a recovery chest shot at 300 yds they are in trouble. A chest/shoulder shot needs something a little more stout.
Go to NZ or some part os the US where a 600yd plus shot is common and you need bullets that expand reliably at 2000fps. The Amax (replaced by the ELDX/M) and the Berger are king here. They wouldn't touch a monolithic bullet with a barge pole and are pretty scathing about most bonded bullets. It's a very different style of shooting to most of ours.
You have to match the construction of the bullet to it's terminal velocity and the type of shooting YOU do.
In terms of species I think the Scots have got it right. I would much rather shoot Roe with a 60 or 70 grain bullet, it's as much as they need and drops them just as quickly as a 100gr doing less damage. All Fallow and Red and Sika hinds are fine with 100gr but I always go 130gr or 150gr when shooting Red and Sika Stags. If I was shooting lowland red hinds I might move up to 130's too, but I have never experienced that so am not really qualified to comment.
Just my view, others I'm sure are different.
Jagare
Well-Known Member
I shoot one load for all hunting. Moose, red,fallow, boar, roe and muntjac plus a couple of foxs have died by my homeloaded Norma Oryx in .308. For quite a few years i stalked with a .243 shooting 105grn sierra round nose. 40 years ago people said that a .243 was not suitable for big fallow. They talked rubbish then like they talk rubbish now.
The Nosler partition is a good bullet but a little bit dated now by the bonded bullets available. Bonded bullets spread less lead in a carcass.
The Nosler partition is a good bullet but a little bit dated now by the bonded bullets available. Bonded bullets spread less lead in a carcass.
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
All the messers I know can never settle on anything for any length of time or have a gun for each day of the week .The decent stalkers I know are all one trick ponies .
I'll play devils advocate here.
I'm just not sure what the problem with a small amount of lead in venison. Most is left intact. Very little in hunting bullets scatters. The cup and core separate, but both are fairly obvious and one certainly going to eat one. I'm just speculating, but I would guess that there is much more lead in 50lbs of ducks than the same in venison. That's just one Texans opinion' capt david
I'm just not sure what the problem with a small amount of lead in venison. Most is left intact. Very little in hunting bullets scatters. The cup and core separate, but both are fairly obvious and one certainly going to eat one. I'm just speculating, but I would guess that there is much more lead in 50lbs of ducks than the same in venison. That's just one Texans opinion' capt david
Matt Roberts
Well-Known Member
Agree with foxdroper. Better a master of one if it’s man enough for the lot. Personally 6.5x55, Barnes 120gr TTSX... munties, reds, fallow, sika, roe, pigs. Drops them just fine and you can even eat the hole.
Slickshot
Well-Known Member
One rifle is or you need! 270 Winchester. I’ve got a blaser R8 pro success and it’s amazing! 130 accu-bond for deer & 130 ballistic tip for fox! POI is the same with one rifle & both bullet types!
People complain with meat damage! Well shoot the animal in the right spot then you get zero with the correct bullet.
People complain with meat damage! Well shoot the animal in the right spot then you get zero with the correct bullet.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
I assume the "right spot" is the head? Because aside from head shots, I have shot deer all over the place with various types and weights of bullet and ALWAYS get some meet damage?
One of the worst I have seen was a 30 06 180g (could have been a 150 but think it was 180)
This is the exit side on a yearling Fallow
2015-08-04 18.02.43 by markchase8, on Flickr
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
I don’t have three species on my land. I have Roe on one permission and Sika with the occasional Roe on another. On the first permission I would use my 243 with 85 grain game kings or similar. The Sika I have a 270 for. I have different loads for my vermin rifles to suit the quarry I’m after at the time.
If someone has gone to all the trouble of trying to give me a suitable bullet for the different sizes of quarry. I would be daft not to at least try find one that suits each of my needs.
I assume the "right spot" is the head? Because aside from head shots, I have shot deer all over the place with various types and weights of bullet and ALWAYS get some meet damage?
One of the worst I have seen was a 30 06 180g (could have been a 150 but think it was 180)
This is the exit side on a yearling Fallow
Brilliant!! Looks dead to me!
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
In stalking as well as fishing and most other country sports there is and always has been a certain amount of merchandise to catch the hunter rather than the game .
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
I don’t think it is over thinking it.
I will ask the question this way then
You are going on a trip to stalk ahold medal red stag. Paid a lot of money for the privilege.
Do you turn up with your foxing rifle?
Because a Muntjac is a damn site nearer in weight and build to a Fox than the stag
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
=1 Impax 7's most consistent killer of pheasants and partridge ever, with perfect patterns from game guns.
Sorry but only use 243 on little ones.
I shoot foxes with the same rifle I shoot deer with... So yes I would.
You cant kill them too dead. Guys who say you need bullet x in this cal to shoot muntjac and you need bullet y if you are going to shoot them in the head and bullet z if you shoot red deer. What do they do if you have several species on the ground, do they carry on the different bullets and take the time to select the chosen round when they see a beast in front of them. Well I tell you what I do, I have a rifle that I carry with bullets that will kill all legal species that I have the permission to kill up to the range that I can accurately shoot at and in which I am confident the bullet will kill. I can be out and shoot crows to red deer
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
So do I but my point is that there’s a reason why we have bullets and calibre’s of differing muzzle energy and construction.
Some are far better suited to a particular quarry.
My 20 Tac fires fifty grain bullets that are very effective on fox. But not as good as the forty’s for crows. They just don’t expand the same, the result is the same, but I would rather use the lighter bullet on crows so they all drop on the spot.
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