electric cars,,,,
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CarlW
Well-Known Member
Electric vehicles are something I feel I ought to rail against because hippies like them. They must be bad, eh?
However, although I don't yet own one, the thing that really piques my interest is the capacity of an electric motor to produce enormous amounts of torque. I love torque, hence my 6.8 litre diesel tractor and 3.0 diesel pickup, even though filling up the 300-litre fuel tank on the former brings tears to my eyes. An electric motor could match their pulling and off-road capacity without breaking a sweat. Once the range issue is fixed, count me in for electric!
Kind regards,
Carl
However, although I don't yet own one, the thing that really piques my interest is the capacity of an electric motor to produce enormous amounts of torque. I love torque, hence my 6.8 litre diesel tractor and 3.0 diesel pickup, even though filling up the 300-litre fuel tank on the former brings tears to my eyes. An electric motor could match their pulling and off-road capacity without breaking a sweat. Once the range issue is fixed, count me in for electric!
Kind regards,
Carl
Parts of this are certainly not right. Lithium is not the most common metal on earth, aluminium is. There are 23 metals more common on earth - including some members of the group known as rare earth metals. Lithium is not especially abundant, and the total quantity of lithium reserves is assumed to be sufficient for the automotive sectors needs in the condition that the number of cars required is less than the number currently existing and that they have small batteries. Such estimates also do not appear to include the requirements to replace other internal combustion engines - e.g. trucks, trains, farm machinery etc. Battery technology may well change, but scepticism about the capacity of current technology to meet needs is not entirely groundless. Ultimately, batteries are not a good way to run a car. They replace 50kg of fuel weight with hundreds of kilos of battery with less energy capacity.
While it's good that batteries can be re-used or recycled, that's not really the important issue to consumers. The key problem is that at some point during the life of the cars, we assume they may well need replacement. Manufacturers are uniformly evasive about battery life and the cost of replacements. Until they start to tell the truth and are seen to do so, most people won't touch them with a bargepole, for fear of being hit with an astronomic battery bill.
As to the demand on the electricity grid, I have my doubts about that too. The vast majority of electric vehicles are charged overnight, because it takes all night. That vast majority is a tiny number. Very, very few electric vehicles exist in the UK. Of the plug-in hybrid variety, recent research showed that the large majority have NEVER been plugged in. If and when electric vehicles become mainstream, it is obvious that the current barriers to acceptance will have been over come: i.e. that they won't take anything like as long to charge, batteries will be far larger, and people will have much wider access to fast chargers running at much higher currents. It is obvious that this will involve far higher demands on the grid. To charge 10 million cars at the same time using even relatively low power chargers implies the need for the grid's capacity to increase dramatically . There are 30-odd million cars, half a million goods vehicles and many more other industrial vehicles. To extrapolate on the characteristics of current models seems like wishful thinking. In some cases independent testing has shown the real power consumption of EVs to be over twice the reported levels on which these estimates are based. At that level, electric vehicles would use getting on for half the current total electricity production of the UK at current levels of traffic. In the end, it doesn't really matter if we need more power stations.
What does matter is if we allow the adoption of this technology to happen in a sphere where policymakers and providers of infrastructure are guided by delusional and deliberately misleading data into a fantasy world where electric cars magically get us around in defiance of the laws of physics and of common sense. The consequences will be a transport system not fit for purpose which will severely damage everybody's quality of life.
I shall be delighted to get an electric car at the first moment that it is sensible and realistic to do so. I don't anticipate that being in the next five years under any imaginable set of circumstances.
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kenbro
Well-Known Member
Very strange vehicle that needs filling twice to get out of Kent, but can go from
Brum brum to Manc. without a top up!
Ken.
I just cannot see that battery driven vehicles are the way forward. they don't offer enough flexibility. They are maybe a part of the solution but not in general. We are going to have to make a massive shift in our thinking with regards to transport. Maybe in the future we will be able to take power wirelessly from the road surface or maybe we will finally crack fusion to create cheap abundant electricity that can be used to produce cheap and plentiful hydrogen. Whatever it is, there is going to have to be enormous sums of money invested in it.
We have an 18 year old first generation Toyota Prius which needed the main battery replacing after 14 years...it cost just over £1,000. (£2k with £1k trade-in on the old battery from Toyota)
I have seen some eye-watering claims that the batteries cost thousands every couple of years...but that has not been our experience.
Alan
That is somewhat a case of comparing chalk to cheese. Your battery has about 1% of the capacity of a better-range electric vehicle, and I understand to not even be a lithium-ion battery anyway.
A Prius is also different being primarily a petrol car, and the degeneration of the battery is a less limiting factor than in a pure electric car.
My understanding is that a big electric vehicle battery may cost 30 grand or so.. Presumably this may reduce in future, but the current situation is that manufacturers are not being transparent about battery costs and lifespan, and that battery failure will effectively write off vehicles.
The company I work for have recently supplied a group of workers to build the large batteries for EV's for a large car manufacturer. I was staggered to find out how they actually build them. Appears to be a process of basically using small batteries to build a huge battery. Nothing new there as such but each "battery" for a car needs s**t loads of little batteries. More than I thought was even physically possible.
I am with Carl on this one. There are many obstacles to overcome but when/if they are, I will be first in line for an EV that is attainable and useful. The power delivery is awesome.
I recall being overtaken a couple of years back by something that looked like a large purple SUV. It was on a particular stretch of road where you would not normally be able to safely overtake due to the short stretch of visible carriageway. I saw him pull out behind me with a couple of further cars ahead of me that were doing close to the speed limit. I immediately eased off the accelerator in one of those "Oh christ, this could end badly if somethig is coming the other way" moments but there was no need. I have never ever seen something take off so quickly. I have driven some fast cars but this was genuinely hyper car speed/acceleration. I could not believe how quickly, effortlessly and silently this tank vanished.
I looked up the model when I got home and it was an X P100D. Cannot remember the 0-100kph figures but it must have been 3 seconds or under. Complete bonkers for something that size. God knows how quick the smaller ones are.
I am with Carl on this one. There are many obstacles to overcome but when/if they are, I will be first in line for an EV that is attainable and useful. The power delivery is awesome.
I recall being overtaken a couple of years back by something that looked like a large purple SUV. It was on a particular stretch of road where you would not normally be able to safely overtake due to the short stretch of visible carriageway. I saw him pull out behind me with a couple of further cars ahead of me that were doing close to the speed limit. I immediately eased off the accelerator in one of those "Oh christ, this could end badly if somethig is coming the other way" moments but there was no need. I have never ever seen something take off so quickly. I have driven some fast cars but this was genuinely hyper car speed/acceleration. I could not believe how quickly, effortlessly and silently this tank vanished.
I looked up the model when I got home and it was an X P100D. Cannot remember the 0-100kph figures but it must have been 3 seconds or under. Complete bonkers for something that size. God knows how quick the smaller ones are.
Essentially they are 18650 batteries all bolted together I believe.
As per my earlier post I think the hybrid/petrol is the best way forward. At a battery cost of £75 per year we get double the MPG of an equivalent vehicle. Proven technology. There is no problem with range. No new infrastructure required. No/little pollution in urban environments. And as @CarlW says the potential of wonderful low rev torque for towing...
Just a pity that the Lexus RX hybrid does not have a towing capacity sufficient for my needs...plenty of lovely power...otherwise I could ditch the V70XC and the 300tdi Discovery...
Alan
I agree for urban driving, and think PHEVs have some strengths, although it is rather dubious that the best seller is a two ton monster.
I remain enthusiastic to have an electric car if and when it becomes viable to do so.
The battery pack in a typical Tesla consists of around 7000 individual 18650 lithium ion batteries. Each battery is never required to supply more than a fraction of an amp of current nor charge at a rate of more than a fraction of an amp.
As for acceleration - with a DC electric motor, maximum torque is available at any speed, and of course, when you slow down, you don't waste all the kinetic energy in the car by changing it into heat in the brakes, the electric motor becomes a generator and sends it back to the battery pack.
Because of this "regenerative braking" It's not unusual for an electric car to get to the bottom of a long hill with more range left than you had at the top of the hill.
Cheers
Bruce
I had an RX400 hybrid for 10 years and now have a Lexus NV hybrid.
Lexus make great cars -very well built and very comfortable, plenty powerful and very reliable. The hybrid system works seamlessly, you don't normally even notice it changing from battery power to engine power.
However, the range in pure electric mode is a joke. The RX would do about 1 mile on a flat road at a maximum of 30 mph and the NX is less than half that (it has a smaller battery)
The RX was originally sold in the USA with the sales pitch that it had a 3.3 litre engine , and the fuel consumption of a 3.3 litre engine but the electric motors gave it the performance of a 4 litre engine (hence RX400)
Cheers
Bruce
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
horse can pull a ton on land but nearly thirty on water bring back canal barges.
It s true that in an electric car, the single most expensive item is the battery. But in a car selling for £70+K (Jaguar, Tesla, Audi, Mercedes with approx 90KWH batteries) why should £30K for the battery be a such a big deal.
You can buy an MG with a 44KWH battery for less than £25K, and I'd bet that the battery cost is around £10k
Cheers
Bruce
More battery ignorance I'm afraid
The issue about losing capacity after partial discharging applies to Nickel Cadmium battery chemistry.
Plug in hybrid and pure electric vehicles all use lithium ion rechargeable batters which does not suffer form loss of capacity when partially discharged and then recharged.
Cheers
Bruce
I am flabbergasted. I feel like a Martian has just landed.
It's a big deal because it entirely torpedoes the economics of car ownership. Essentially cars like that face the prospect of having zero second-hand value. If a battery needs replacing after say 6 years and the replacement cost more than the car is worth, then you are replacing a vehicle with a 15-year lifespan with a new type of vehicle that only has a 6-year lifespan and is considerably more expensive.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
We have the sun here,in fact too much effn sun imo so every car should have all available space (roof/bonnet/boot) covered in solar collector panels....AND wait for it a metre dia wind turbine that deploys out of the roof (like motorised gliders) and once out on the road that fan charges as you go....whhhoooo!
The Gov would charge for the amount of calculated air that passes through the turbine and call it an air adjustment tax.
The Gov would charge for the amount of calculated air that passes through the turbine and call it an air adjustment tax.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I personally think electric cars are a distraction. In an urban environment, an electric car, whilst might be cleaner, does n't go any faster and a normal car. They still cause lots of congestion. Most urban journeys are short and electric bikes and scooters are the way to go. From a cost, energy, environment point of view a car weighs 1,000kg plus wheres most electric bikes are 100 to 150 kg's including the rider - so by any measure are using 1/10th or less the power of an electric car. And on an electric bike a 10 or 15 mile journey is not hard at all. The big challenge we have is very poor state of roads and that bikes and cars don't mix - at least electric bikes keep a reasonable speed.
