Basc voluntary lead ban

"SACS statement is borne out by the fact that the cartridge manufacturers' [GunTrade] Association were obviously consulted, because they published a supporting document simultaneously with the shooting insurers/organisations statement. "

Having read this I do not see this being more than a generic peace of work that could have been around for a long time. Nothing specific, If you had of asked the GTA for it in November i bet they could have printed it of the frequently asked questions page?
 
Having read this I do not see this being more than a generic peace of work that could have been around for a long time. Nothing specific, If you had of asked the GTA for it in November i bet they could have printed it of the frequently asked questions page?

Agreed. BASC and the other organisations (with the connivance of the GTA) used library data in order to exclude the (anticipated-to-dissent) cartridge manufacturers from the process.
 
I can’t believe what I’ve just read. So the biggest, most respected cartridge makers. Bar none. All agree that BASC have not consulted in any way shape or form. That’s it - I’m cancelling my BASC membership. So what’s the alternative folks, can you recommend a non bias insurance firm for me please. I stalk and shoot. Thanks
Country cover
 
Basc have been falling out of favour for quite some time now but it gained momentum with the medical reporting mess but this is just at a different level of incompetence it’s time they were made to explain and account for the very big mess we are now in. Time for who ever was responsible to do the honourable thing and resign.
 
Always the difficulty with organisations owned by their membership and have senior positions where people are voted it, it comes down to is generally a choice of two option

1) Are they leadership there to represent the views of the members
2) The leadership is there to make decisions and judgement calls that they believe is best for the membership

i am a long time supporter of and member of BASC and CPSA, my main call out is that while BASC are keen to encourage the membership to fill in documentation on “polls” to do with the General License and the Importing/Exporting of trophies they did not think to ask the memberships opinion on probably the most far reaching approach/decision in regarding lead and plastics. They clearly see themselves as in category “2”

in the long term we will be swimming against the tide of opinion regarding the use of lead and plastics, however I think we could have made a better job of planning the transition and the timescales, to have not engaged with the body that represents the cartridge manufacturers demonstrates this point in full
 
I believe and have believed for some time that the best and only sanction for an organisation which does not represent your views consistently, fails in so many simple ways, and never apologises - is to resign/withdraw and no longer pay them for some distant memory of what you wanted them to be, after having tried change.
Anyone who does not resign now, never will and more of the same failures will follow.
I would rather have no representation than damaging representation.

No one I know or have contacted knows why this happened now or can provide a scintilla of justification - best not to invent reasons to justify incompetence, simply accept its incompetence.
 
Alan,

It is inconceivable that the shooting organisations would have failed to check with the GTA (the members of which thrive on the sale of new, steel-proofed guns), that the cartridge manufacturers were also in the loop. Heck, if I were running BASC (or any of the other betraying organisations), I would have wanted to see the whites of the eyes of the people who actually make the cartridges before turning the shooting world upside down.

Make no mistake, the cartridge manufacturers were deliberately excluded from this process (as they would have dissented), and then the impression given that they had been involved and indeed supported it.

We have been lied to, betrayed, and damaged beyond belief by the very people who swore to defend us.

Kind regards,

Carl


The point I am trying to make is that if the cartridge manufacturers were deliberately excluded from the debate, then it was by their own GTA.

The four cartridge manufacturers are all members of the GTA...they all come up as members of the Gun Trade Association in the GTA website "find a member".

The GTA website states that they published their guidance on the same day to coincide with the joint statement, "in recognition of the shooting organisation's statement" so the GTA were obviously involved.

Alan
 
The point I am trying to make is that if the cartridge manufacturers were deliberately excluded from the debate, then it was by their own GTA.

The GTA could not have excluded the cartridge manufacturers without the agreement, or even the request, of BASC and the others. This was a deliberate strategy by those involved in the plan: it was not an oversight. Someone in those meetings would have asked "so what have [insert cartridge manufacturer] got to say about this?"
 
The GTA could not have excluded the cartridge manufacturers without the agreement, or even the request, of BASC and the others. This was a deliberate strategy by those involved in the plan: it was not an oversight. Someone in those meetings would have asked "so what have [insert cartridge manufacturer] got to say about this?"
The simple truth - inescapable.
 
If you want decent organization with insurance who doses ACTUALLY seem to be proactive in defending our interests

Join SGA the Scottish Gamekeepers Association


No complaints with them and they actually react and post On social media with statements and are trying to do what bloody BASC should have been doing years ago

Paul
 
I was wondering with this if all the shooting organisations around the world got together, I know it's a big ask, but surely that would give us, the shooters, a lot of clout when it comes to changes like this with the option to say no we don't want it.
 
The GTA could not have excluded the cartridge manufacturers without the agreement, or even the request, of BASC and the others. This was a deliberate strategy by those involved in the plan: it was not an oversight. Someone in those meetings would have asked "so what have [insert cartridge manufacturer] got to say about this?"

Why the GTA may have chosen not to consult or represent its members is pure conjecture ain't it?

Whether they were pressured by the shooting associations as you say, or chose not to consult with their members for some internal GTA political reason, who knows?

The SACS statement holds true....SACS understood the GTA to have been consulted.

The fact is that the GTA knew about the forthcoming joint statement and published their guidance on the same day.

Whether the guidance was a rehash of earlier FAQs or not, they state that they published it on the same day "in recognition of the shooting organisation's statement".

I can see no conspiracy by the shooting insurers/associations, but then, I am not looking for one.

But it is a small point in the grand scheme of things which is demonstrable amongst the aggrieved rhetoric.

For those emotionally attached to lead ammunition it must be tough. I see nobody responds favourably to those on here who say they have used the alternatives and not had a problem either with shot to kill rate or using it in older guns. Their experience is apparently just ignored. It is only those railing against the situation that are liked and approved, so I guess as Khayyam says the tendency is just to go with ones prejudices and just take on board what we want to believe....

"Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint,
and heard great argument,
About it and about,
But evermore came out
by the same door as in I went"

(Probably) a poorly remembered misquote from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

Alan
 
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Why the GTA may have chosen not to consult or represent its members is pure conjecture ain't it?

Whether they were pressured by the shooting associations as you say, or chose not to consult with their members for some internal GTA political reason, who knows?

The SACS statement holds true....SACS understood the GTA to have been consulted.

The fact is that the GTA knew about the forthcoming joint statement and published their guidance on the same day.

Whether the guidance was a rehash of earlier FAQs or not, they state that they published it on the same day "in recognition of the shooting organisation's statement".

I can see no conspiracy by the shooting insurers/associations, but then, I am not looking for one.

But it is a small point in the grand scheme of things which is demonstrable amongst the aggrieved rhetoric.

For those emotionally attached to lead ammunition it must be tough. I see nobody responds favourably to those on here who say they have used the alternatives and not had a problem either with shot to kill rate or using it in older guns. Their experience is apparently just ignored. It is only those railing against the situation that are liked and approved, so I guess as Khayam says the tendency is just to go with ones prejudices and just take on board what we want to believe....

"Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint,
and heard great argument,
About it and about,
But evermore came out
by the same door as in I went"

(Probably) a poorly remembered misquote from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam

Alan

Alan,

I am confident that your own mini anti-lead campaign is motivated by good faith. However, the vast majority of people opposed to lead only take that position in a vexaxious attempt to harm shooting. Our shooting organisations have opened the door for those people. I, and a great many other people who live for fieldsports, will attempt with our last breaths to slam it in their faces.

As I have said to you before, if you choose not to use lead, then go ahead; however, don't try to prevent me from doing so.

Kind regards,

Carl
 
Alan,

I am confident that your own mini anti-lead campaign is motivated by good faith. However, the vast majority of people opposed to lead only take that position in a vexaxious attempt to harm shooting. Our shooting organisations have opened the door for those people. I, and a great many other people who live for fieldsports, will attempt with our last breaths to slam it in their faces.

As I have said to you before, if you choose not to use lead, then go ahead; however, don't try to prevent me from doing so.

Kind regards,

Carl

I am a metalworker, I am not anti-lead...it is just another metal with its own set of properties...I do not have an emotional view of it.

Nothing I have said or written about the advantages of using non-lead ammunition has ever sought to impose my view on others. I don't like eating metal particles. Take it or leave it. If the advantages are obvious they will be accepted for what they are.

Why make me out to be some one trying to prevent you from making your own choice, and then threaten me not to? It is the second time you have done that.

Are you saying I can use alternatives to lead if I want, but I must not share my experience or my reasons for doing so? Why not?

The fact that I suggested during the Waitrose debate that we as shooters could take some of the ammunition out of the anti-shooting argument by voluntary using alternatives in order to help prevent a ban seems invariably overlooked or misinterpreted as my seeking to impose a ban...a bizarre reversal of my position.

Alan
 
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I am a metalworker, I am not anti-lead...it is just another metal with its own set of properties...I do not have an emotional view of it.

Nothing I have said or written about the advantages of using non-lead ammunition has ever sought to impose my view on others. I don't like eating metal particles. Take it or leave it. If the advantages are obvious they will be accepted for what they are.

Why make me out to be some one trying to prevent you from making your own choice, and then threaten me not to? It is the second time you have done that.

Are you saying I can use alternatives to lead if I want, but I must not share my experience or my reasons for doing so? Why not?

The fact that I suggested during the Waitrose debate that we as shooters could take some of the ammunition out of the anti-shooting argument by voluntary using alternatives in order to help prevent a ban seems invariably overlooked or misinterpreted as my seeking to impose a ban...a bizarre reversal of my position.

Alan

I didn't threaten you. Don't be such a baby.

You go ahead and keep working with the antis to destroy our way of life. Currently, you are winning!
 
I didn't threaten you. Don't be such a baby.

You go ahead and keep working with the antis to destroy our way of life. Currently, you are winning!

You warned me not to try and fight you, that is a threat no?...I was upset that twice you had accused me of working to impose a ban on others...three times now...

Three times now I have stated I am not.

Why make me out to be an enemy? Why not take my words at face value?

I choose to use non-lead bullets to kill animals for a number of reasons...how does that make me "working with the antis"?

That you equate anti-lead ammunition with anti-shooting is one thing. I disagree, I think they are separate issues. You have vastly more experience of the shooting world than I do, maybe you have found good reason to believe it is impossible to distinguish. I am sure many of those opposed to shooting will use the perception of lead toxicity to further their aims just as they would any other potential weak spot.

That you equate my choice to use copper bullets as being anti-shooting I just cannot fathom.

Alan
 
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,

Gentlemen, you are two of the most considered and esteemed voices on this forum. Watching you dissent is like seeing your parents fight :(.

It is a measure of the gravity and polarising nature of this topic that it can divide us exactly when we need unity. Could we not come round to a consensus that acknowledges the following concurrent truths:

  • BASC et al have jumped the gun and failed us all
  • Public perception that lead-in-food-at-any-level-is-bad is a co-factor in declining game sales
  • Kowtowing/appeasing antis gains nothing as they are relentless in their desire to eliminate all hunting
  • There is a growing body of data that should encourage us, as those who cherish the ecology, to find suitable lead shot alternatives as soon as they are viable

 
,

Gentlemen, you are two of the most considered and esteemed voices on this forum. Watching you dissent is like seeing your parents fight :(.

It is a measure of the gravity and polarising nature of this topic that it can divide us exactly when we need unity. Could we not come round to a consensus that acknowledges the following concurrent truths:

  • BASC et al have jumped the gun and failed us all
  • Public perception that lead-in-food-at-any-level-is-bad is a co-factor in declining game sales
  • Kowtowing/appeasing antis gains nothing as they are relentless in their desire to eliminate all hunting
  • There is a growing body of data that should encourage us, as those who cherish the ecology, to find suitable lead shot alternatives as soon as they are viable
Sorry but I can’t for a moment be convinced that if we switch to lead alternatives people will start buying more game , I just don’t believe it . The reason the don’t want game is nasty men with guns kill it , nothing to do with lead shot
 
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