The 243 may be fine in some localities, but

[Bavarianbrit]

And you honestly think a 6.5 would have had a different outcome?

If he had test shot the rifle first even the .243 he would have known the POA for his eyes. He never misses or shoots badly with his own kit that I do know but I do not want to start a ****ing comp here.
I was really commenting on the .243 suitability on fallow, I have just filled out the tale too much for some armchair experts it seems.

 

[palmer_mike]

If he had test shot the rifle first even the .243 he would have known the POA for his eyes. He never misses or shoots badly with his own kit that I do know but I do not want to start a ****ing comp here.
I was really commenting on the .243 suitability on fallow, I have just filled out the tale too much for some armchair experts it seems.

That’s fair enough, no zeroing shots so maybe that’s the reason the shot went somewhere other than poa.

Almost all deer calibres in the wrong place is going to wound rather than kill quickly.

Doesn’t really say anything at all about the .243 specifically

 

[75]

If he had test shot the rifle first even the .243 he would have known the POA for his eyes. He never misses or shoots badly with his own kit that I do know but I do not want to start a ****ing comp here.
I was really commenting on the .243 suitability on fallow, I have just filled out the tale too much for some armchair experts it seems.

It was a genuine question. Your original post inferred that the issue your pal experienced was a result of the calibre:

guiding assistants rifle was a .243 and my pal shot a fallow with it that was never found. No dog was available for follow up either. I reckon a decent 6.5mm should be minimum unless after muntis.

You didn't mention he'd not shot the rifle so the issue probably was insufficient information provided to the armchair experts rather than too much

 

[Hales Smut]

Yeh, we shot a lot up Tweed over 3 estates that were in the heart of the Sika population. Happily neck or head shoot with a .243 but wouldn't be as happy with taking chest shots on them. I'm not suggesting it won't kill them, it will. But other factors come in to play. How far will it run and into what kind of cover? Will that make recovery difficult or almost impossible? Is it last light? Etc etc. I tracked a fair number with my HS and one of the longest was around 600yds witnessed by 2 friends. Shot with a 140gr 6.5x55, through the lungs and liver...I've shot loads of young sika stags worh the .308 and 150gr bullets and they would still run 150yds plus! Maybe my guests and I were just unlucky???

I fully agree here. If the bullet can't stop the deer on the spot or very close and the cover is thick , the venison can be ruined. If this happens at last light you can only start tracking in the morning. On warmer days not benificial for the meat.

I like the bullet to reach and break the opposite shoulder from any reasonable angle at any reasonable distance. On a 80-100 kg animal , quatering away shot at 150m , the 80-100 grain 243 bullet has diffculties doing this. Just as the 222 has the same problem on a roe at 80-100m. On warmer days and close to dense cover , it can be a problem.
I've always learned aimng for the opposite shoulder. It mostly nails them, but the bullet must be strong and heavy enough to reach that shoulder.
On slightly difficult angles/shots the heavier bullet/calibre is king.

 

[jamross65]

I fully agree here. If the bullet can't stop the deer on the spot or very close and the cover is thick , the venison can be ruined. If this happens at last light you can only start tracking in the morning. On warmer days not benificial for the meat.

I like the bullet to reach and break the opposite shoulder from any reasonable angle at any reasonable distance. On a 80-100 kg animal , quatering away shot at 150m , the 80-100 grain 243 bullet has diffculties doing this. Just as the 222 has the same problem on a roe at 80-100m. On warmer days and close to dense cover , it can be a problem.
I've always learned aimng for the opposite shoulder. It mostly nails them, but the bullet must be strong and heavy enough to reach that shoulder.
On slightly difficult angles/shots the heavier bullet/calibre is king.

Agreed.

I would never question the experiences of the likes of Bogtrotter and his use of the .243 on the large numbers of red he has shot. I'm not questioning the performance of the .243 at all to be honest. But in my experience with Sika where guests were shooting them in the chest on the edges of very dense regenerated sitka and larch it would not have been an option during the rut in the evening, for the very reasons you highlight about recovering deer that have ran a long way in woodland. Which is maybe where the .243 on deer on open hill is not an issue as seeing where they run before dropping is possible.

 

[jamross65]

Having read this thread from start to finish I have come to the conclusion that perhaps a .243 is not the
rifle for amateurs.

Glad to see you haven't lost it Jim!

 

[stubear]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

I honestly think within 200y anything deer legal will go bang and kill things - take your pick. Anyone who says they've never had a runner or never lost a deer is either lying or doesnt shoot many deer.

I shot a roe doe last season with .300WM, I saw the impact through the scope, tracked the blood trail into the woods where we found a huge puddle of blood. It must have been a good 2 pints at least. There was no green at the shot site, there was lung tissue, hair, bright red blood, the lot. It looked like a textbook shot from what I could tell.

She'd been with a group of another 4-5 roe and at the shot they had all run, and she'd gone with them. We never found her.

Small deer, blimmin' big cartridge, decent hit from what I could tell and she still ran far enough that we never caught up with her, even with a dog.

It happens. If it hasnt happened to you yet then just keep hunting and give it time because it will.

If you like .243, shoot a .243. If you dont like .243 then shoot something else.

 

[foxdropper]

......just don’t come whining on here lol.

 

[palmer_mike]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

I honestly think within 200y anything deer legal will go bang and kill things - take your pick. Anyone who says they've never had a runner or never lost a deer is either lying or doesnt shoot many deer.

I shot a roe doe last season with .300WM, I saw the impact through the scope, tracked the blood trail into the woods where we found a huge puddle of blood. It must have been a good 2 pints at least. There was no green at the shot site, there was lung tissue, hair, bright red blood, the lot. It looked like a textbook shot from what I could tell.

She'd been with a group of another 4-5 roe and at the shot they had all run, and she'd gone with them. We never found her.

Small deer, blimmin' big cartridge, decent hit from what I could tell and she still ran far enough that we never caught up with her, even with a dog.

It happens. If it hasnt happened to you yet then just keep hunting and give it time because it will.

If you like .243, shoot a .243. If you dont like .243 then shoot something else.

Did you get a proper trained deer dog to look for the deer? (Why I ask is I sounds like a pretty easy track for most dogs I’ve seen working bloodtrails)

 

[stubear]

Did you get a proper trained deer dog to look for the deer? (Why I ask is I sounds like a pretty easy track for most dogs I’ve seen working bloodtrails)

Yes - she’s a friend of mines dog and has a fantastic nose. Found many a deer.

Just this doe had scarpered unfortunately...

 

[Hales Smut]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

I honestly think within 200y anything deer legal will go bang and kill things - take your pick. Anyone who says they've never had a runner or never lost a deer is either lying or doesnt shoot many deer.

I shot a roe doe last season with .300WM, I saw the impact through the scope, tracked the blood trail into the woods where we found a huge puddle of blood. It must have been a good 2 pints at least. There was no green at the shot site, there was lung tissue, hair, bright red blood, the lot. It looked like a textbook shot from what I could tell.

She'd been with a group of another 4-5 roe and at the shot they had all run, and she'd gone with them. We never found her.

Small deer, blimmin' big cartridge, decent hit from what I could tell and she still ran far enough that we never caught up with her, even with a dog.

It happens. If it hasnt happened to you yet then just keep hunting and give it time because it will.

If you like .243, shoot a .243. If you dont like .243 then shoot something else.

A good friend , now deceased , and very experienced tracking dog handler told me a few things that I always keep in mind. One of them:

A lot of blood on the place of the hit is either :
- finding the animal very fast and close by
or
- one hell of a difficult animal to find , if not impossible

About the 243. Use diffent rifles/calibres adapted to the situation. The 243 has it's place, but so do other calibres.

 

[foxhunter]

I shot a roe doe last season with .300WM, I saw the impact through the scope, tracked the blood trail into the woods where we found a huge puddle of blood. It must have been a good 2 pints at least. There was no green at the shot site, there was lung tissue, hair, bright red blood, the lot. It looked like a textbook shot from what I could tell.

Must have been a very poor shot for a .300wm not to drop a roe , in my experience even if it was gut shot it wouldn't go far. Should have shot the dog as obviously useless.

 

[User00033]

Found this by accident yesterday evening. Advantages of the lockdown.

This is a pretty fair and objective assessment of the environment. It’s always interesting how a lot of the UK banter about minimum calibre often (usually) neglects to specify which deer species, range and environment. In this thread we have fallow deer in Sussex, reds in the Highlands, roe here and there, yet the argument usually lumps it all in together.

These guys have their preferences, and all power to them!

(Mine would be .308 for that kind of magnificent country - very similar to parts of Otago here.)

 

[Hales Smut]

I shot a roe doe last season with .300WM, I saw the impact through the scope, tracked the blood trail into the woods where we found a huge puddle of blood. It must have been a good 2 pints at least. There was no green at the shot site, there was lung tissue, hair, bright red blood, the lot. It looked like a textbook shot from what I could tell.

Must have been a very poor shot for a .300wm not to drop a roe , in my experience even if it was gut shot it wouldn't go far. Should have shot the dog as obviously useless.

Luckely the dog is still alive.

The man I speak about was the main tracker on a big driven hunt shoot in the Ardennes. He was there every shoot day and had several searches a day. They shoot about 60/80 head of game a day.
He told me that a lot of blood is not necessary a good sign.
Either the animal is very close and you have him without any problem.
Either it's a flesh/muscle wound and the animal is very hard to get if not impossible.
Lethal wounds just behind the heart/lung area , in general, don't loose a lot of blood.
So " a lot of blood " is not always a sign of an easy job.

 

[CarlW]

Luckely the dog is still alive.

The man I speak about was the main tracker on a big driven hunt shoot in the Ardennes. He was there every shoot day and had several searches a day. They shoot about 60/80 head of game a day.
He told me that a lot of blood is not necessary a good sign.
Either the animal is very close and you have him without any problem.
Either it's a flesh/muscle wound and the animal is very hard to get if not impossible.
Lethal wounds just behind the heart/lung area , in general, don't loose a lot of blood.
So " a lot of blood " is not always a sign of an easy job.

I'm sure he knows his stuff, but I am not fully sold on his explanation. What I have occasionally noticed is that a 'hot' dog with limited experience will sometimes lose its head when faced with loads of blood. It can struggle to concentrate and settle down to problem-solving the track. They soon grow (or can be trained) out of it.

Just a thought.

Kind regards,

Carl

 

[foxdropper]

The fact an animal has lost a fair amount of blood limits life for a start and that animal will be hunkered down somewhere along the line the rest took .Muscle dosnt bleed copious amounts ,only an arterial break some where in the body can cause this .Wounds can and do close over limiting blood loss but I’d have thought even the ugliest hound could of followed up from that if taken long the route the rest took by slotting ,

 

[palmer_mike]

Doesn’t add up to me.
Roe shot with powerful rifle, lung found at shot site. Plenty of blood on track to wound bed where 2pints of blood pooled on ground.

There is no way of id expect the deer to have gone far from that wound bed, but in any case if I couldn’t have found it I’d have called out a proper dog team (there’s coverage pretty much country wide from a couple of different organisations) and they’d have found it.

UKSHA or UKDTR

 

[User00035]

I had a lung shot runner recently. Posted about it on here somewhere. A roe doe, quartering very slightly. .308, 200 yards, bullet passed between two ribs on entry without touching either, missed the heart being a bit low and took the bottom of one lung out. Plenty of blood and lung tissue but very little energy transfer because nothing of substance was struck.
Ran barely 50 yards into woodland and was very easy to track. I'd have a sacked a dog that couldn't find it.

 

[IrishStalker]

Haha very people in here.

 

[bogtrotter]

If lung shot it did not go very far