CarlW
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%.
The Future of the "Old Victorian Style Stalking Estates"
- Thread starter Tulloch
- Start date
Agree 100%.
Such an interesting debate and conundrum.
Terms like tradition, balance, partnership, sustainability, energy, finance and community need more respect all round in my opinion. I think there is a place for it all, small simple estates, big monsters with huge budgets. Privately owned, corporate ownership, 5th generation etc. Evolution and change cannot be stopped and estates are complex assets. With good management most can be sustainable and traditions maintained with modern progress.
Sometimes that is through luck (hydro / wind) which now provides never before thought of income. Sometimes it is inward investment post sale/purchase, including overseas. We need to be careful of “bashing” the modern Laird who comes and invests massive capital from another country. Believe me, such owners often come with passion, but I accept not all. The real challenge is, estates require a 30-50 year commitment and business plan and that spectrum has to include more than sport, farming and energy - diversification through forestry and tourism is on the up (but nothing new) and should be encouraged, but in collaboration with other estate management.
Generalisation is so dangerous in this game, no estate is the same.
I for one see stalking remaining very much on the agenda and potentially more accessible, but hopefully, as part of a sustainable but changing landscape.
Terms like tradition, balance, partnership, sustainability, energy, finance and community need more respect all round in my opinion. I think there is a place for it all, small simple estates, big monsters with huge budgets. Privately owned, corporate ownership, 5th generation etc. Evolution and change cannot be stopped and estates are complex assets. With good management most can be sustainable and traditions maintained with modern progress.
Sometimes that is through luck (hydro / wind) which now provides never before thought of income. Sometimes it is inward investment post sale/purchase, including overseas. We need to be careful of “bashing” the modern Laird who comes and invests massive capital from another country. Believe me, such owners often come with passion, but I accept not all. The real challenge is, estates require a 30-50 year commitment and business plan and that spectrum has to include more than sport, farming and energy - diversification through forestry and tourism is on the up (but nothing new) and should be encouraged, but in collaboration with other estate management.
Generalisation is so dangerous in this game, no estate is the same.
I for one see stalking remaining very much on the agenda and potentially more accessible, but hopefully, as part of a sustainable but changing landscape.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
actually in the Eastern end of the Alps the vegetation and climate at 3,000 m is pretty similar to scotland at 3000 ft. Albeit a bit colder in winter, and 20° as opposed to 15° in summer. And yes therecwas plenty of transhumance is sxotland and large numbers making a living. Its all gone in Scotland and getting it going again theres is no support nor incliniation from all quarters. Yet in other parts of the world they make it work. But then what the .... do I know. I grew up in and used to work in developing agriculture looking at different systems around the world.
First and foremost the Tory party IS an anti Scottish party .
As far as the word Aid being used . In 2015 a prominant Tory minister stood up in Parliament to tell the Nation the truth, UNLIKE the belief of many below the border Scitland is NOT subsidised by Englabd or given Aid like some third world coubtry This was cleared up as I said in 2015
Scottish representation in Parliament is 68 members out of the 650 seats there are.
I think you might have to look at your figures but when you think that the thord biggest party in parliament CAN ONLY be voted in Scotland nowhere else in the UK shows the real sentiment in Scotland against Labour and Conservative parties in Scotland for those to ignore that is foolhardy
sikamalc
Administrator
Yes it is or was a beautiful place. The furthest north you will find a piece of old Caledonian forest growing. However they flattened the area just outside the lodge. It was a complete mess. And they fenced off the whole area. I decided to give it up as it was not worth it anymore. I am now on another area near the river Brora.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
But why would any local service not survive the competition if local communities as described continued to support them?
Perhaps the fact that the folk do not continue to support their local providers, but prefer to source their (less expensive) comestibles, fuel, etc from outwith hastens the demise of small local shops and service providers.
The hitherto thriving town local to me up to the 1970's was catered to with four bakeries, five butchers, myriad various small businesses (over one hundred diverse small business services within a population of roughly 4,500, offering employment opportunities to other townfolk too) all supporting one another. Then a new type of shop came to town, a supermarket; it offered a lower level of service than the traditional "long counter" grocer shops but goods and comestibles at keener prices, so the latter closed down when it became clear they could not withstand the competition, and the resulting loss of patronage/trade, i.e. support from within the community. This trend continued, and another, larger supermarket came into town, and this accelerated the demise of other shops, including other smaller remaining grocery outlets, and put the first, family-run supermarket under severe pressure; when the council permitted two new out-of-town supermarkets, it sounded the death knell for most of the remaining businesses (including the earlier incoming but smaller supermarkets) only a handful of such which still remain, most of which offer services that are not dependent on local custom or patronage.
This is the same basic pattern that has been seen in countless other towns up and down the land, there is nothing unique about the illustration given. When money generated/accrued within any community ecosystem gets spent on goods and services from outwith and thereby leaves that community ecosystem, the downward trend accelerates until the point in time arrives that those serving the community can no longer afford to do so, and they in turn follow the trend, with the results seen throughout most of the small towns throughout the land.
Is this the fault of 'the Tories'? Would Scottish Independence improve the country's current situation?
Britain's greatest comic author, P.G. Wodehouse, once hilariously observed of the Scottish penchant for gloominess: "It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine".
Not all of us blame "others" for our present circumstances, but rather see matters as they now are, and take responsibility for our own lot. The present administration in Edinburgh has had well over a decade to permit our (shared) land of birth to flourish, their own freely chosen preferred route, and been given the monies with which to execute their plans.
So here we are.
Perhaps the fact that the folk do not continue to support their local providers, but prefer to source their (less expensive) comestibles, fuel, etc from outwith hastens the demise of small local shops and service providers.
The hitherto thriving town local to me up to the 1970's was catered to with four bakeries, five butchers, myriad various small businesses (over one hundred diverse small business services within a population of roughly 4,500, offering employment opportunities to other townfolk too) all supporting one another. Then a new type of shop came to town, a supermarket; it offered a lower level of service than the traditional "long counter" grocer shops but goods and comestibles at keener prices, so the latter closed down when it became clear they could not withstand the competition, and the resulting loss of patronage/trade, i.e. support from within the community. This trend continued, and another, larger supermarket came into town, and this accelerated the demise of other shops, including other smaller remaining grocery outlets, and put the first, family-run supermarket under severe pressure; when the council permitted two new out-of-town supermarkets, it sounded the death knell for most of the remaining businesses (including the earlier incoming but smaller supermarkets) only a handful of such which still remain, most of which offer services that are not dependent on local custom or patronage.
This is the same basic pattern that has been seen in countless other towns up and down the land, there is nothing unique about the illustration given. When money generated/accrued within any community ecosystem gets spent on goods and services from outwith and thereby leaves that community ecosystem, the downward trend accelerates until the point in time arrives that those serving the community can no longer afford to do so, and they in turn follow the trend, with the results seen throughout most of the small towns throughout the land.
Is this the fault of 'the Tories'? Would Scottish Independence improve the country's current situation?
Britain's greatest comic author, P.G. Wodehouse, once hilariously observed of the Scottish penchant for gloominess: "It has never been hard to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine".
Not all of us blame "others" for our present circumstances, but rather see matters as they now are, and take responsibility for our own lot. The present administration in Edinburgh has had well over a decade to permit our (shared) land of birth to flourish, their own freely chosen preferred route, and been given the monies with which to execute their plans.
So here we are.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
And this is then reinforced by incoming visitors, or even those who live in the rural parts but go up to cities to work (and yes an awful consider home to be the highlands, or rural Suffolk, Oxfordshire, Yorkshire etc and its where the heart and sole is and where they return to for family time) who come to spend time in the rural parts, but fill up with fuel, groceries etc etc at the big supermarkets before heading up because they know the village shop will one tin of beans at a ridiculous price.
I remember once staying at pub in the highlands - wonderful location and not too many fleas in the bed. Over looked a jetty where local seafood was landed, and would also place to stay if you were stalking in the area. All its food though was pre-prepared frozen meals brought in every few weeks
Actually there may be a real benefit to all of this lock down. Very jealous of good friends who were planning to relocate permanently to a village on the west coast, but saw the lock down coming and relocated over to their house just before it all happened. The local village shop really was a tearoom for summer visitors. Now rather than the whole village having to drive 60 mile round trip to Lochgilphead the shop has a daily delivery of all the essential supplies and priced at supermarket type pricing. Nobody has to leave the village for supplies at all, instead they are all local. And I gather that several, including my friends are putting in or rehabilitating large vegetable gardens, chicken runs etc etc to supply the local market via the shop and also to local pubs, lodges and hotels during the tourist season. I hope that this continues.
Perhaps aid was a bad term, but every area of Britain gets money from central government to aid the supply of services. Scotland gets more per head than both England and Wales. Perhaps the number of SNP MPs reflects the "fact" (and this is not proven, just like your comment about Tories being anti scots is not proven ,actually they are the Conservative party Tory is a perjorative term) that a lot of scots are anti english. Sadly as I visit Scotland I find that this is increasingly true that a lot of scots do seem to hate the english. I do have a comparison having been a student in Aberdeen and lived there for a number of years after this.
David.
David.
gerarddwatts
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but that is just rubbish....I cannot let you say that 'the Tory party IS an anti Scottish party' without rejecting your assertion completely. For a start the Tory party is the second biggest party in Holyrood?
You clearly have issues with the tories...fine....but you cannot make statements like that and not expect a reaction.
Please supply some evidence?
Last edited:
The Tory party isn't anti-Scottish, its more that there isn't much in it for them given the huge majority of Scottish voters do not vote for them. They only hold 6 of the Westminster MP seats in Scotland.
Also, the majority of Scots don't have a hatred for the English, its only the rabid independents and such that display these emotions. We may not like the traits exhibited by some but such is the way in all communities, they all have their own brand of idiot.
Also, the majority of Scots don't have a hatred for the English, its only the rabid independents and such that display these emotions. We may not like the traits exhibited by some but such is the way in all communities, they all have their own brand of idiot.
I can only think of three reasons that folk vote for the SNP: 1) They're an anti-English bigot, 2) They hate the Tory party so much that they're willing to risk anything so that they are not run by the Tories again or 3) They actually believe that Scotland is subsidising the rest of the UK (along with an unshakeable belief in the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny and Santa).
Number three has been shown time and again to rely on oil, a very risky proposition given the volatility of that commodity (take a look at the oil price today to check that one out). Salmond was being rather economical with the truth when he said that the oil dividend was worth £300K to each and every Scot - time has shown that to be nonsense.
So, that leaves two. If it's the first then that person should admit it and then take a good look at themselves. If it's the second, they should be damn sure that the alternative that they see is viable.
There are many things to dislike about the Tories, but anti-Scottish? No.
sikamalc
Administrator
Really don't want this thread to turn into a political point scoring one. I try to remain neutral as much as possible on this site, not easy for me!
I really don't see how anyone can claim that the Tory party or any other party for that matter hates Scotland and treats it accordingly. In all my years of establishing myself in Scotland I have made some great friends, some Scottish, some English. Like most rural areas work is scarce and where possible I have always treated everyone with respect.
In the early days one used to get the odd comment whilst in the local bar, "we fought your wars for you"
my answer was always well if you would rather have been under a Nazi flag I am sure you and I would not be here right now. I don't see or hear that at all these days.
Each Estate has its own issues, that's been mentioned and I agree. But the major changes within the rural community as far as field sports is concerned is dramatic. The present government, much like Westminster take little interest in country folk or their way of life. Mainly because most of the voters are in large cities. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it the SNP that lowered the voting age to 16? just so they could win the kiddy vote. How many of these underage people know anything about highland estates and the shooting world, a very very small percentage I bet. Do they care.....I doubt it.
We live in changing times, stalking in the highlands brings in a large revenue stream for rural communities. I know when I am there it costs me some £800 per week to feed 4 clients, and 3 staff. Plus fuel, plus the lodge rent, plus the stags or leases. All of this goes into the local community. Apart from crofting, forestry and tourism there is nothing else. And the oil industry at Nigg Bay on the Cromarty is also going to be taking a hit at the moment with oil prices at negative.
I really don't see how anyone can claim that the Tory party or any other party for that matter hates Scotland and treats it accordingly. In all my years of establishing myself in Scotland I have made some great friends, some Scottish, some English. Like most rural areas work is scarce and where possible I have always treated everyone with respect.
In the early days one used to get the odd comment whilst in the local bar, "we fought your wars for you"
my answer was always well if you would rather have been under a Nazi flag I am sure you and I would not be here right now. I don't see or hear that at all these days.Each Estate has its own issues, that's been mentioned and I agree. But the major changes within the rural community as far as field sports is concerned is dramatic. The present government, much like Westminster take little interest in country folk or their way of life. Mainly because most of the voters are in large cities. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it the SNP that lowered the voting age to 16? just so they could win the kiddy vote. How many of these underage people know anything about highland estates and the shooting world, a very very small percentage I bet. Do they care.....I doubt it.
We live in changing times, stalking in the highlands brings in a large revenue stream for rural communities. I know when I am there it costs me some £800 per week to feed 4 clients, and 3 staff. Plus fuel, plus the lodge rent, plus the stags or leases. All of this goes into the local community. Apart from crofting, forestry and tourism there is nothing else. And the oil industry at Nigg Bay on the Cromarty is also going to be taking a hit at the moment with oil prices at negative.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I have naturally been a Tory voter most of my life. I am very much of the view that the further away government is from meddling in everyday life the better. Can't help feeling that the Good Book and the 10 commandments probably are more than enough to run a just society by. However with the current Westminster bunch I really do feel that are completely out of touch with reality, and really have not a clue about very much beyond the bounds of Westminster let alone the M25, and for most Scotland is some odd place a bit further North than York and we remember from school days about Edward 1 - the Hammer of the Scots.
However having lived up here for 20 years, increasingly my view is the Westminster is pretty much an irrelevance, most policies have little / no impact on everyday life and fundamentally Scots view of life and society is increasingly different to total control point of view that the current Government seems to want to display in every walk of life - and it would be fine if they were getting it right but they are not. And at School my daughter learnt about the Scottish Wars of Independence culminating in the Battle of Bannoch Burn, which all recited in Flower of Scotland which is sung at every Scottish Rugby Match.
There are lot of parallels to be drawn with the Rhodesians during the 1960's and the end of Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. Fundamentally the Westminster Government wanted out of all of its colonies as fast as possible and seemed very happy to hand over control to want became one party states backed by either Russia (via its proxy Cuba) or China who were all promising Mercedes Benzes would be handed out to all the citizens that voted for them. Rhodesia was pushing for full Home Rule on a par with Canada or Australia with a progression towards giving a vote to all. Westminster wasn't playing so forced The Rhodesian government to declare Unilateral Independence (UDI). Westminster got upset and lots blood and tears and Zimbabwe was the result.*
There are plenty of countries with 5 to 6 million people that are doing pretty well, and there is no reason why Scotland could n't run itself and make its own decisions. And many don't have the additional oil revenues. Increasingly Scots are getting very irritated by the Westminster Government taking the UK in all sorts of directions that are totally against the majority view in Scotland. And I would n't be at all surprised if the Scottish Government takes Unilateral action at some point in the not too distant future.
*Westminster Government put lots of sanctions on Rhodesia, froze all UK bank accounts for any British Citizens that were living in Rhodesia, and still to this day our home office doesn't recognise Birth Certificates of the those born in Rhodesia under UDI. The Royal Navy mounted a blockade outside Beira in Mozambique - closest port to Rhodesia - every weekend the Royal Navy would drop anchor, and all the Royal Navy would travel up to Rhodesia for parties and to play sport (Rugby or Cricket) against local clubs.
However having lived up here for 20 years, increasingly my view is the Westminster is pretty much an irrelevance, most policies have little / no impact on everyday life and fundamentally Scots view of life and society is increasingly different to total control point of view that the current Government seems to want to display in every walk of life - and it would be fine if they were getting it right but they are not. And at School my daughter learnt about the Scottish Wars of Independence culminating in the Battle of Bannoch Burn, which all recited in Flower of Scotland which is sung at every Scottish Rugby Match.
There are lot of parallels to be drawn with the Rhodesians during the 1960's and the end of Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. Fundamentally the Westminster Government wanted out of all of its colonies as fast as possible and seemed very happy to hand over control to want became one party states backed by either Russia (via its proxy Cuba) or China who were all promising Mercedes Benzes would be handed out to all the citizens that voted for them. Rhodesia was pushing for full Home Rule on a par with Canada or Australia with a progression towards giving a vote to all. Westminster wasn't playing so forced The Rhodesian government to declare Unilateral Independence (UDI). Westminster got upset and lots blood and tears and Zimbabwe was the result.*
There are plenty of countries with 5 to 6 million people that are doing pretty well, and there is no reason why Scotland could n't run itself and make its own decisions. And many don't have the additional oil revenues. Increasingly Scots are getting very irritated by the Westminster Government taking the UK in all sorts of directions that are totally against the majority view in Scotland. And I would n't be at all surprised if the Scottish Government takes Unilateral action at some point in the not too distant future.
*Westminster Government put lots of sanctions on Rhodesia, froze all UK bank accounts for any British Citizens that were living in Rhodesia, and still to this day our home office doesn't recognise Birth Certificates of the those born in Rhodesia under UDI. The Royal Navy mounted a blockade outside Beira in Mozambique - closest port to Rhodesia - every weekend the Royal Navy would drop anchor, and all the Royal Navy would travel up to Rhodesia for parties and to play sport (Rugby or Cricket) against local clubs.
Mick9abf
Well-Known Member
I’m afraid that you have started to believe all of the monologue supplied by the SNP.
The SNP says it speaks for Scotland - it doesn’t, it has a minority government in Scottish elections. Plenty of Scots, including SNP supporters also voted to leave the EU.
There was a very interesting article in the Scotsman recently which highlighted the fact that the Scottish Government bury bad news when speaking to journalists and only answer it later on after it has been put to print.
For a government so keen on independence to knock back the opportunity to have greater powers and autonomy after the referendum it shows me they are happy to make a lot of noise and complain about Westminster making difficult decisions but are not willing to make those, usually unpopular, decisions themselves - fact. It’s always easier to be able to blame the incumbent U.K. government, would it matter if it was labour, Lib Dem a coalition?
They have managed to significantly damage public services through amalgamation to benefit their voter base in the central belt which also allows them to have total control of who is chosen to head those services (example: Police Scotland is now on its 3rd Chief Constable since it’s inception).
The Scottish education system is in decline and attempts into an independent enquiry were resisted as much as they could be.
Oil revenues are a straw argument as has been shown, the industry hasn’t recovered from the last downturn and are again standing at the edge of an abyss with prices so low it is costing more to extract it that there is in profit.
Profit being the main income oil companies pay VAT on to the exchequer - so no that one was put to bed a long time ago.... the secret ‘Claire’ oil field claimed by Nationalists to have been kept secret in a conspiracy to stop Scotland voting Yes? That’ll be the oil field initially discovered in the 70’s but restricted due to technology at the time, technology that would not be cost effective just now.
There is a strong feeling still in the Highlands of Scotland regarding perceived historic wrongs that continue to perpetuate what I can only describe as a toxic dialogue amongst some citizens. Mixing this with encouraging a class divide and grief fest throughout the country over all the perceived wrongs appeals to some of the electorate.
If you follow politics in Scotland the SNP are about to go into an internal conflict which threatens to tear them apart. There is a lot of skeletons and dirty laundry about to be released and a party claiming to be cleaner than all the rest of the self serving WC’s that infest the various parliaments is about to be aired and it ain’t going to be pretty.
The country has been severely mismanaged for well over 10 years as all interest has been in independence and still is. Whenever and whatever the circumstances of the SNP losing power are the financial mess that will be left in their wake will be staggering and I pity any party trying to sort that one out without causing considerable pain.
Another referendum, I’d be happy for one - would Scotland vote yes, my honest opinion... not a chance as the majority of Scots will make a balanced decision on the figures put in front of them with the added benefit and hindsight that the last ‘white paper’ produced has already been proven to be based on a lot of assumptions and best or better hopes so in short far below Andrex and a lot more likely to cause unnecessary chafing.
Do the SNP care about rural affairs - no, not unless they can use them to their advantage for reasons already mentioned (class divide/have, has not) which is good for votes particularly during financial crises, financial benefits in the form of grants or other pie in the sky promises.
Back to the original post and have traditional estates got a future; anyone who thinks or believes that the SNP support the rural industry and wouldn’t be delighted to see it collapse or indeed support private firearms ownership is frankly completely naive in the extreme.
They are trying their best to make sporting estates as uneconomical as possible to devalue them sufficiently to meet their plans and anyone who thinks that it will sway deer stalking opportunities or anything else are very short sighted and will end up as being part of the collateral damage in the end.
Last edited:
It os very interesting how many on he
John Major government - carried on Thatchers reign and with it added pressure on Scotland.
Even Boris's government have shown anti Scottish sentiment , a non acknowledgement of Holyrood and has by fact tried to stop Nicola Sturgeon from attending the climate change conference at the end of the year , which is obviously cancelled now.
There has been a huge smear campaign since the 60's of any party that supports independence for Scotland, in fact in 2007 when secret government document were put into the public domain over freedom of information , Westmninster under ALL Conservative governments held dossiers and had an extensive surveillance campaign against the SNP and other who have supported independence for Scotland.
Anyways that discussion is for another day and noone will change my right to believe that Scotland has a right to be independent from Westminster, I am not anti English never have been and in fact lived a long time in England, nothing against English people what so ever and I holiday in England every year where I go see family that is down there. To be honest I am great believer in diversity and a wider community and there is far more anti sentiment against Scots in England than there is English in Scotland, and I think it should be illegal for an English MP to wail and holler at a Scots , Welsh or Irish MP to "GO HOME" everytime they stand up to ask a question or speak in the House of Commons when they have the right to be there as much as ANY elected minister.
and if you want a simple test to prove English people are anti Scots take a Scottish £20 note and try spend it in England outwith the national chain supermarkets.
Thatcher government - Poll Tax and closing of industry that served Scotland very well, even under interview Thatcher claimed That Scots were second rate.
John Major government - carried on Thatchers reign and with it added pressure on Scotland.
Even Boris's government have shown anti Scottish sentiment , a non acknowledgement of Holyrood and has by fact tried to stop Nicola Sturgeon from attending the climate change conference at the end of the year , which is obviously cancelled now.
There has been a huge smear campaign since the 60's of any party that supports independence for Scotland, in fact in 2007 when secret government document were put into the public domain over freedom of information , Westmninster under ALL Conservative governments held dossiers and had an extensive surveillance campaign against the SNP and other who have supported independence for Scotland.
Anyways that discussion is for another day and noone will change my right to believe that Scotland has a right to be independent from Westminster, I am not anti English never have been and in fact lived a long time in England, nothing against English people what so ever and I holiday in England every year where I go see family that is down there. To be honest I am great believer in diversity and a wider community and there is far more anti sentiment against Scots in England than there is English in Scotland, and I think it should be illegal for an English MP to wail and holler at a Scots , Welsh or Irish MP to "GO HOME" everytime they stand up to ask a question or speak in the House of Commons when they have the right to be there as much as ANY elected minister.
and if you want a simple test to prove English people are anti Scots take a Scottish £20 note and try spend it in England outwith the national chain supermarkets.
Mick9abf
Well-Known Member
The Poll Tax was due to George Younger who pushed for it because it would save the need for a rates assessment, which was due that year. To reassess all property value cost millions and George reckoned that he could save that cost and put in place a better system all at once. He was wrong, of course, as history has shown - but it wasn't anti-Scots and it wasn't Thatchers idea as a punishment to Scot’s. Labour spread that initially because it was a good way of combating Conservatives - but it was a lie and was ultimately piloted, tweaked and became the Council Tax UK wide.
Heavy industry - why have the SNP not reinstated it all? Because it's not profitable without significant state intervention and it's all sewn up by shipyards in Singapore, Coal mining - same and it wouldn’t fit in with current climate goals anyway, it’s called business. There’s a reason why there aren’t really any state owned industries anymore as the SNP are going to find out with CalMac although they are trying their best to hide their part in the debacle.
The climate change conference has not been cancelled but postponed due to Covid-19, Nicola Sturgeon has not been stopped from attending she wanted to chair it and was told no as she’s not a U.K. minister at which point the SNP spat the dummy and started using Scottish tax payers money to rent every other suitably sized available venue for ‘fringe events’ in the area to stop U.K. government renting it for the conference - pretty childish I’m sure you’d agree.
I’d check your SNP history before referring to intelligence dossiers and surveillance which have uncomfortable direct links with the SNLA, ‘79 Group who were engaged (later expelled from the SNP and readmitted Alex Salmond Being case in point) in what I would describe as proposed terrorist type activities as well as links to the IRA and other republican groups (bit like Corbyn).
The monkeys in Parliament through insults at each other each and every day so I’m not going to cherry pick any as frankly I can’t be bothered.
As to Scottish notes in England, other than a bit of banter I’ve never had an issue. Neither do the county lines drug dealers who ship hundreds of thousands of pounds in Scottish notes south of the border every year.
Last edited:
CraigSoales
Member
What a fascinating thread to read on a lockdown afternoon. I won’t comment on the party political / independence issues, but I offer some thoughts on the original post on the future of highland stalking estates.
First, context : I was born in Scotland but have lived my adult life in England. I own a second home in the highlands - just a house - not an estate. I shoot and stalk - indeed have stalked (stags and hinds, and the occasional sika or roe) on several estates in the last few years, ranging from 5th generation “Victorian style” to recently acquired by City money with the benefit of heavy recent investment. My stalking is a leisure / recreation pursuit (at least in Scotland - I also do some muntjac stalking England, but it is, whilst still enjoyable, more in the nature of management.)
First, what has surprised me about the debate here is that no one has mentioned (expressly) the long term impact on land use provoked by the need to react to climate change. Largely I agree that Government should interfere as little as possible in the rights of land owner to use his or her land as she/she likes. But land use is a central element in addressing damaging climate change - and in Scotland (renewables aside) that means looking after peatlands and increasing woodland. Scotland has the space and the peat lands to be a contributor. And it is my hope that it can be done without the sort of wreckage that is commercial forestry in Galloway. But for the good of everyone, it will (probably) require interventions in land use that sporting estates may not like. At the very least there will be incentives to change that they will find hard to ignore.
And one of those will be a reduction in grazing pressure /peat land damage / tree damage by deer. Ultimately, there will be more woodland - I hope of the right sort - and the challenges of deer management in it will be different. I have been working my way through the DWG Report - I am at about p256 - and I welcome such a comprehensive look at deer management even if I don’t agree with all the recommendations. Yes, there are many agendas in play, but we do need to think laterally now.
And I should add that in my limited experience, even setting the climate challenge to one side, I have some sympathy with those who argue that deer numbers are too high. I have walked, clambered and crawled over too many overgrazed hillsides in the last few years to be in much doubt of that.
Second, There is a different but linked issue looming for the highland communities that are highlighted in this thread. Upland farming is unsustainable without large subsidy. At some point, probably soon after the UK leaves the CAP, we will look again at whether it is right for the taxpayer at large to pay upland farmers to carry on an uneconomic activity. The glen in which my house sits - which I have been going to all my life - used to have over a dozen sheep farming operations (I am going back c.45 years). Today there are 3, and only one of those has a son showing any interest in carrying on after his father retires. And that is with subsidy at today’s rates. So as stalkers perhaps we should be imagining what the uplands might be like with (a) many more trees and (b) few or no sheep. Might we return to driving deer - as they do on the continent ? Just a few days a year but on a large scale - Monteria style. We forget that deer were driven to guns at Balmoral in the early 20th Century (not least because Edward VII was a tad overweight) - and that the stealthy “silent shot” which is what most of us practice now was only one of several means of stalking in the 19th Century (read Scropes “Art of Deer Stalking” for the full picture.)
Yes there is a lot of change afoot. Yes the ownership of estates and “land politics” will feature significantly in that.
I say we have to be as open minded as we can. Because to cling to what we know and enjoy today, as if it is the only ‘right’ way, will be a mistake which we will all regret In the long run. I have huge sympathy for keepers and stalkers, especially right now, and in the face of an uncertain future. Their knowledge and experience are treasures and I hope we can keep them, but I also hope they too can be ready to adjust to whatever comes next.
First, context : I was born in Scotland but have lived my adult life in England. I own a second home in the highlands - just a house - not an estate. I shoot and stalk - indeed have stalked (stags and hinds, and the occasional sika or roe) on several estates in the last few years, ranging from 5th generation “Victorian style” to recently acquired by City money with the benefit of heavy recent investment. My stalking is a leisure / recreation pursuit (at least in Scotland - I also do some muntjac stalking England, but it is, whilst still enjoyable, more in the nature of management.)
First, what has surprised me about the debate here is that no one has mentioned (expressly) the long term impact on land use provoked by the need to react to climate change. Largely I agree that Government should interfere as little as possible in the rights of land owner to use his or her land as she/she likes. But land use is a central element in addressing damaging climate change - and in Scotland (renewables aside) that means looking after peatlands and increasing woodland. Scotland has the space and the peat lands to be a contributor. And it is my hope that it can be done without the sort of wreckage that is commercial forestry in Galloway. But for the good of everyone, it will (probably) require interventions in land use that sporting estates may not like. At the very least there will be incentives to change that they will find hard to ignore.
And one of those will be a reduction in grazing pressure /peat land damage / tree damage by deer. Ultimately, there will be more woodland - I hope of the right sort - and the challenges of deer management in it will be different. I have been working my way through the DWG Report - I am at about p256 - and I welcome such a comprehensive look at deer management even if I don’t agree with all the recommendations. Yes, there are many agendas in play, but we do need to think laterally now.
And I should add that in my limited experience, even setting the climate challenge to one side, I have some sympathy with those who argue that deer numbers are too high. I have walked, clambered and crawled over too many overgrazed hillsides in the last few years to be in much doubt of that.
Second, There is a different but linked issue looming for the highland communities that are highlighted in this thread. Upland farming is unsustainable without large subsidy. At some point, probably soon after the UK leaves the CAP, we will look again at whether it is right for the taxpayer at large to pay upland farmers to carry on an uneconomic activity. The glen in which my house sits - which I have been going to all my life - used to have over a dozen sheep farming operations (I am going back c.45 years). Today there are 3, and only one of those has a son showing any interest in carrying on after his father retires. And that is with subsidy at today’s rates. So as stalkers perhaps we should be imagining what the uplands might be like with (a) many more trees and (b) few or no sheep. Might we return to driving deer - as they do on the continent ? Just a few days a year but on a large scale - Monteria style. We forget that deer were driven to guns at Balmoral in the early 20th Century (not least because Edward VII was a tad overweight) - and that the stealthy “silent shot” which is what most of us practice now was only one of several means of stalking in the 19th Century (read Scropes “Art of Deer Stalking” for the full picture.)
Yes there is a lot of change afoot. Yes the ownership of estates and “land politics” will feature significantly in that.
I say we have to be as open minded as we can. Because to cling to what we know and enjoy today, as if it is the only ‘right’ way, will be a mistake which we will all regret In the long run. I have huge sympathy for keepers and stalkers, especially right now, and in the face of an uncertain future. Their knowledge and experience are treasures and I hope we can keep them, but I also hope they too can be ready to adjust to whatever comes next.
sikamalc
Administrator
Scottish currency was some years ago heavily forged, and was not excepted because of this. I also well remember being refused £1 coins in some Scottish shops too, and only Scottish notes being given back. Either way its nothing to do with Victorian Estates.
But if anyone honestly thinks the present authority in Scotland believes in country sports and deer management and supports it, …...…………………… well I think you have more chance of purchasing a return ticket to Mars and back!
But if anyone honestly thinks the present authority in Scotland believes in country sports and deer management and supports it, …...…………………… well I think you have more chance of purchasing a return ticket to Mars and back!
I don't believe that the SNP is pro country sports or deer stalking that is for sure , but at the moment I do not believe any party is and you are correct Malc none of the politics that has been mentioned really has anything to do with the demise of Victorian style Estates, in fact as I have mentioned before the demise has actually been happening for over 40 years, between commercialism and change in how these estates are run and who owns them all effects what the future holds for them.
As I have also mentioned before THIS IS NOT JUST HAPPENING IN SCOTLAND , it is in fact happening in England too and that has nothing to do with an SNP government.
Similar threads
