If it wasn't for granny and granda you wouldn't be here - and with an attitude like yours, that maybe wouldn't be a bad thing.
Bruce
Bruce
Any others cynical about a vaccine?
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FrenchieBoy
Well-Known Member
Not wishing to cause any argument or be insulting - maybe Granny and Grandpa aren't giving anything now but think about what they have given in the past - I suspect just as much if not more than you have contributed in National Insurance or Income Tax, not to mention many other things!
I wonder if you would still be thinking the same if you were to loose your Granny or Grandpa to Covid 19 because they were refused treatment simply because of their age?
How many of those sceptical, or in denial, about the merits of the covid vaccine have been sufficiently consistent as to refuse to be vaccinated, or refused to let their children be vaccinated against TB, Polio, meningitis, MMR, tetanus, diptheria, rotavirus, hepatitis, pneumonia, encephalitis, tick-borne encephalitis, yellow fever, hantavirus, HPV?
What is behind this totally demented opinion that vaccinations are some sort of money-making racket whereby every sane medical expert in the world is in league with big pharma/ Illuminati/ lizard aliens in a plot to seriously harm people for a couple of dollars per head? There is no credible evidence for this lunacy, yet in the face of a vast body of overwhelming evidence and data over 200 years and every country in the world crackpots seem determined to publicly exhibit their stupidity and compound it by rigidly insisting on it, regardless of reality.
What is behind this totally demented opinion that vaccinations are some sort of money-making racket whereby every sane medical expert in the world is in league with big pharma/ Illuminati/ lizard aliens in a plot to seriously harm people for a couple of dollars per head? There is no credible evidence for this lunacy, yet in the face of a vast body of overwhelming evidence and data over 200 years and every country in the world crackpots seem determined to publicly exhibit their stupidity and compound it by rigidly insisting on it, regardless of reality.
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
Not wishing to cause any argument or be insulting - maybe Granny and Grandpa aren't giving anything now but think about what they have given in the past - I suspect just as much if not more than you have contributed in National Insurance or Income Tax, not to mention many other things!
I wonder if you would still be thinking the same if you were to loose your Granny or Grandpa to Covid 19 because they were refused treatment simply because of their age?
No you are fair in your argument but lets be frank whatever any of us pay into the system particularly the NHS is dwarfed by the cost of what is taken out over the course of a lifetime this is one of the main arguments used when saying the NHS is good value for money. But with almost all these people they will have retired at 65 and with longevity increasing with many folk tripping over the 90 barrier this is causing an insurmountable hole in the purse. People my age mid 30s are expected to live north of 100 in countries like the UK are expected to comfortable get into three figures without too much ado. So they will either have to work till there into the 70s or face a financial shortfall.
All my grandparents are dead and my grandmother god bless her soul was kept alive for nearly 15 years after she should have passed on during which time her quality of life deteriorated significantly. We are victims of our own ideals. That being said I know for a fact that she would have absolutely lambasted this charlatan approach which is invariably going to hamstring anyone under 40 for many years to come and she absolutely would not have wanted it and would have hated being used as an excuse for these nonsensical government polices. As they bred them tough in that era I doubt she would have an anomaly.
glasshalffull
Well-Known Member
Tantamount to Al Qaeda shorting airline stocks before 911
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
I mean the UK govt stopped TB vaccines for kids....
There are two types of anti vax people first are lizard iluminati getting chips inplanted nonsense types that don't warrant the time of day. The second are measured people weighing up if something cooked up in 9 months for which 99.99% people survive if they catch is really warranted. The two are unrelated. I would also add that this is not some yellow fever style jab which is administered by the million per year this is effectively a global roll out on the scale of billions all within 1 calendar year. Lets assume its 99.9999%
There is also the principle of the UK government forking out for this vaccine at considerable cost when they would have been better improving peoples welfare the money could have been spent cleaning up the mess now its spent on this then cleaning up as well.
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The UK govt did not stop vaccines for TB. The NHS has just been too incompetent to procure enough vaccine despite a plentiful global supply.
I agree that there are loonies and the concerned. However, the concerned are unduly influenced by the loonies and are adopting their spurious reasoning. In Europe, Covid has already killed 0.06% of the entire population in under a year, and 2.35% of the known cases - excluding the main season for respiratory illness. It cannot, therefore, be true that 99.99% of people survive catching it. It is definitely NOT the case that only 0.01% of people who catch it die from it. Whether it kills 0.1% or 1% or whatever figure can be reasonably estimated from the facts we know, it is beyond any reasonable doubt that taking a vaccine is extremely important. Aside from the spurious argument that it's not worth taking a vaccine which has zero risk of serious injury or death to prevent catching or spreading a disease which kills UK residents at a higher rate than WW2 did, it is beyond doubt that it is worthwhile on purely economic grounds or on purely civil liberties/ human rights grounds.
The process through which these vaccines are passing is the same process as they usually pass through. The increased speed reflects the increased urgency and the enormously increased funding. There is an incredibly low risk that the cure is worse than not taking it. It simply does not add up on any sane basis that any rational person should want to avoid the vaccine.
The second group does not exist any more. There is NO "measured" basis to object.
The principle of the UK government making spending decisions that you feel are unwise, is neither anything new, nor even remotely connected to the efficacy or safety of the vaccines. All I'd add to that is that the total economic costs of not having a covid vaccine dwarf the sums you're thinking of by a huge factor.
It really isn't supportable to be sceptical any more.
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
Disagree with everything you have written why even bring in WW2 its meaningless, you seem to be forgetting in 1968 we lost more than this current pandemic to HK flu but we did'nt shut the world down. Hell even today the ONS says were tracking pretty much on par with average death rates bar a small bump which is hardly surprising given dementia and alzheimers a degenerative condition is driving the covid death rate. Which ever way you slice this up its not some form of plague and normal people are just not dying in the volumes justifying this level of intervention. This vaccine is to "save the nhs" and keep the sheep happy that's it.
All I will say is that the only reason anyone needs to object to anything be it a vaccine or piece of political ideology is the fact that it their personal choice and that alone should be enough for anyone to respect. It doesn't matter if they fall into the two heads and deformed babies sprouting camp or the plain just apathetic its a choice and that's final.
You disagree with everything i've written, when I'm telling you things that are recorded facts. You're telling me that you're a member of the crackpot brigade with that sentence.
Let me take this point by point:
- The first thing to get into your head is that we're not at the end of Covid, so it is plain stupid to argue that any comparison can be drawn between some outbreak that has ended, and one that has barely got going yet.
- HK flu. It is not true that it killed more people than covid has in the UK, nor abroad. Covid is of a higher order of seriousness, we've already had about twice as many deaths from covid as HK flu. Given that this is a matter of fact, and your claim on this is wrong, surely you now accept that you have to revise your assessment of the seriousness of the outbreak.
- Whichever way I slice it up, it is completely obvious to any rational person that widespread use of a vaccine is absolutely warranted. It is sheer pigheaded stupidity to suggest otherwise. We have, and take without any controversy, vaccines for far less common diseases. There is no identifiable downside to taking the vaccine, and it puts an end to something that has killed 40-60,000 people in the UK in less than a year, wiped out a tenth of the economy, is in the process of costing millions of people their livelihood. Yet you reject it because having a simple harmless injection scares you more than you feel any responsibility to do your bit to end this.
The ONS data does not support the assertions you're making and nor have they said anything of the sort. What the ONS says is that deaths are above average for the ninth week in a row and well above average for the year to date. Coronavirus (COVID-19) roundup - Office for National Statistics
It's not purely a matter of personal choice, it's a matter of the person's responsibility to society. Taking a vaccine does not just affect you, it affects everyone. You don't act this stupidly in any other aspect of your life.
This is crazy sh1t. You're responding to fact with a stubborn attitude based on entirely false beliefs about the ONS, HK flu, numbers of deaths, and some deranged mention of people being sheep.
Nightwalker
Well-Known Member
If the stupid, gullible & paranoid among us refuse to take the vaccine when it becomes available, and most sensible people do take it, then over time, the virus should reduce the ranks of the stupid among us to everyone's benefit. At the moment a lot of the stupid among us, refuse to wear masks, wash their hands and socially distance, unfortunately when they get infected they often pass the virus on to more sensible members of the population but once vaccines are available, I think that we should encourage them not to get vaccinated and not to take reasonable precautions and just let natural selection via Covid rid us of them or at least a proportion of them. BTW the current Covid death toll has occurred despite lockdowns etc and without these the death toll would be much higher and when the Oxford/Janssen vaccine becomes available it will initialy be delivered at cost and later profits will fund an Institute for Pandemic Preparedness
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
Im sorry I'm the bat**** one when but you compared Covid to WW2? Least I had the good sense to reference a pandemic which albeit 50 years ago had a devastating effect. Whilst you might be right about HK in the UK this was on reference to a global scale and frankly given how much the world population has grown since then proportionally Covid is not even close and they still didnt close the world down. We all know that the numbers of people who died from Covid are factually incorrect yes it might be Covid that pushed them over the edge but give me a break cancer, dementia, heart disease obesity etc is what killed them or will you argue that the 90% of deaths from Covid didnt have serious underlying conditions?
You have posted a link to the ONS weekly stats which is fine but over 12 months as per table below bar the April spike we are pretty much net flat with the 5 year average. That would imply that everyone who was already going to die from it as opposed to other things given how long this has been in circulation has either died or recovered. That large spike is barely mentionable in a population of this size. Now I could be regretting that in Jan which sees the usual Winter Flu spikes but for 2020 were hardly at biblical death tolls.
This boils down to personal preference but given you feel I lack the moral duty to "save" my country by taking something I do not need especially having had it and been absolutely fine then well frankly your argument is starting to sound a lot like we should all be forced into against our will and for that reason alone I would'nt ever entertain this because that is the start of a very slippery slope.
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Rasputin
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Reckon it might take a very long time to thin the herd post the initial first wave consider 99% of people wont die from Covid.
Yes. Covid is causing UK deaths at a similar rate to WW2, and NOT at lower rates comparable to the examples you cling to. You referenced a pandemic that however you look at it was far less serious than covid. Even on reference to a global scale Covid is much more serious than the HK flu outbreak. The 1968 pandemic killed an estimated 1 million people globally. Covid has killed a measured 1.36 million so far, and has NOT finished, continuing to kill at a rate of about 10,000 per day. Yes, the population is much higher, but so will estimated deaths be, and even adjusting for those factors, Covid is more serious already. There is no numerical basis on which one can sensible argue HK flu was as serious whether in the UK or globally. That is wrong.
Covid may well have killed off plenty of ill people with underlying conditions who were on the way out, but that applies to HK flu or any other disease. It's an irrelevant distraction. In fact, studies have shown that covid is not just knocking off those on death's door, but taking those with about 11 further years of life on average. One can't be definite about such matters, but whatever is correct, it is of only minor relevance. More important is that covid is damaging healthcare for other conditions and there will result in higher death rates for other conditions as well in future.
The ONS data shows a large number of excess deaths. Stop pretending it doesn't. It is not pretty much "net flat". You call it a large spike, then claim it's barely mentionable. It is tens of thousands of deaths. There is a long period with far higher death rates and no corresponding period with zero or far lower deaths. Can you not read a scale? It doesn't average out with lower deaths for other causes. That is wrong.
There is a strong and morally valid argument that vaccinations should be mandatory. I don't subscribe to it .....yet, although exposure to too much widespread idiocy may change my mind in time. It doesn't matter if you need it. Other people need it to have been taken by enough of the population to deny the disease a permanent reservoir. The fact that covid has little effect on you is both irrelevant and missing the point. If you can't understand the basics of vaccination, it really is hard to believe that you're adopting a position of informed and reasoned scepticism.
To conclude, we have established that there is no factual basis for your opposition to a vaccine, so what does the reasonable and "measured" person do? Follow reason, or stick blindly to an incorrect position?
The only thing i agree with you on is that there is the start of a very unpleasant erosion of individual rights and fundamental liberties, but they are a feature of lockdown regulations, not vaccinations. If you don't want vaccinations, that's a vote for ongoing lockdown regulations with their entirely indefensible intrusions into personal liberty.
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Rasputin
Well-Known Member
I cant even be bothered to argue with you as you are saying my interpretation of the numbers do not have logic behind them which is funny because there's some fairly clever scientists calling the stats bs but maybe they are wrong also, but let's just leave this here shall we as you have clearly bought into the emotional aspect of this more than the logic.
Enjoy the vaccine be happy in your world and I will be happy in mine as will 10s of millions of others in the UK from all walks of life.
I will have a gentlemen's bet with you that at the end of this year we finish 5% or less above the 5 year average of annual death rates. Assuming either of us ever get a dataset we can believe in. The irony is of course vaccines require herd immunity but hey ho we were told that wouldn't work months ago but hey ho.
Enjoy the vaccine be happy in your world and I will be happy in mine as will 10s of millions of others in the UK from all walks of life.
I will have a gentlemen's bet with you that at the end of this year we finish 5% or less above the 5 year average of annual death rates. Assuming either of us ever get a dataset we can believe in. The irony is of course vaccines require herd immunity but hey ho we were told that wouldn't work months ago but hey ho.
The chaps in Oxford are tipping away nice and steady...
www.theguardian.com
Oxford scientists say they will not rush to get Covid vaccine results by Christmas
Further trials required but ‘delight’ after early data reveals strong immune response in over-70s
www.theguardian.com
Vaccines don't REQUIRE herd immunity - they, along with people who have immunity because they have had the virus PROVIDE herd immunity by reducing the transmission rate to less than 1
Bruce
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Vaccines provide herd immunity . On a side note , when vaccines become available our northern indigenous people are at the front of the list . Something the average UK resident doesn't think about , there's no reason you would , is how vulnerable they are to many diseases . Some that you wouldn't even think of . A good friend of mine lost four family members to the Swine Flu outbreak some time back , they are still very susceptable to many diseases that some wouldn't even be concerned with . They have been on almost complete lock down , not hard to do in the Arctic , since this started . They were doing great until last week . They've had an outbreak in Nunavut . This is serious as they will have a fatality rate far higher than other populations . This isn't really inline with the foregoing conversation , just thought it might be interesting , and have a thought for those that most don't think about ( I do by the way ) Stay safe and I'll see you on the other side ................ of the pandemic .............not the choir invisible thing ............ you know what I mean .
AB
AB
Basic research would have shown this not to be the case; the end of mass vaccination against TB was announced by the government in 2005.
Routine vaccination for tuberculosis ends in UK - PMC
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
The UK moved to a targeted approach, focused on those most at risk.
Basic research would have shown this not to be the case; the end of mass vaccination against TB was announced by the government in 2005.
Routine vaccination for tuberculosis ends in UK - PMC
The UK moved to a targeted approach, focused on those most at risk.
This is because the large majority of TB cases in the UK are immigrants, and therefore cannot be captured with the previous mass vaccination programme. The programme now is for the blanket immunisation of infants in areas and from areas at risk. You're right, I didn't make that clear. However, it is the case that the NHS has been too incompetent to procure sufficient vaccine to immunise the people required under their more limited programme, despite global abundance of vaccine.
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