You and our new mate @Shackleton are made for each other... bosum buddies.
What actually is long range to you, out of of interest? Serious question, please lets put the cutlasses down for a moment and answer this question. What is long range?
Which one? 6.5 PRC or 270 WIN
- Thread starter Ackers-303
- Start date
What actually is long range to you, out of of interest? Serious question, please lets put the cutlasses down for a moment and answer this question. What is long range?
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Invited onto a Fallow Cull day last year.
Lots of people I had never met before.
At the briefing when deciding seat placement I was asked (in front of everyone else), "What distance are you happy shooting out to?"
"Forty to fifty yards", was my deadpan answer.
It was only the one lady Stalker who got the irony (I suspect she had been exposed to such nonsense all her working life).
The point is (for me) that 200m (sorry to flip between 'old and new' money) would be a long shot. Most of mine are taken 80-120 yards (apologise again for anyone with OCD).
That said, I have seen the videos and read many posts from DK - there is no doubt in my mind that he knows his stuff.
I cannot begin to understand the prep that has gone into perfecting his skills - and that for me it the word - he and his mates did not just rock up and perform like that.
Different ends of the world, different environments, different skills sets.
Where I am from, we have a saying:-
"Talk is cheap. Whisky costs money."
Well DK old son, I raise a glass to you and yours and salute a better marksman than I.
Lots of people I had never met before.
At the briefing when deciding seat placement I was asked (in front of everyone else), "What distance are you happy shooting out to?"
"Forty to fifty yards", was my deadpan answer.
It was only the one lady Stalker who got the irony (I suspect she had been exposed to such nonsense all her working life).
The point is (for me) that 200m (sorry to flip between 'old and new' money) would be a long shot. Most of mine are taken 80-120 yards (apologise again for anyone with OCD).
That said, I have seen the videos and read many posts from DK - there is no doubt in my mind that he knows his stuff.
I cannot begin to understand the prep that has gone into perfecting his skills - and that for me it the word - he and his mates did not just rock up and perform like that.
Different ends of the world, different environments, different skills sets.
Where I am from, we have a saying:-
"Talk is cheap. Whisky costs money."
Well DK old son, I raise a glass to you and yours and salute a better marksman than I.
Ackers-303
Well-Known Member
Having found the time to catch-up with this thread, I think that the conversation has gone somewhere that was never intended. As the OP, I want to clear up some things that perhaps I could have been more clear about on the original post. Furthermore, I genuinely listen and take stock of any advice from someone feels would be helpful.
1. Hunting at distance - It is my ambition to hunt all over the world. To travel and experience different environments with different culture and wildlife. To take a shot 100-200m every time may not be practical. Some environments will likely require a longer shot. With that, I want the right tools for the job.
2. Experience level - Although relatively 'green' with shooting animals at over 200m, I would not consider myself completely inexperienced at shooting having grown up with firearms and spent some time target rifle shooting up to 600m, with more days that I could possibly remember on military ranges (I know, not the same at all but marksmanship principles etc are transferrable). I wont ever take a shot at an animal that is beyond my skill/experience level, which is always increasing.
3. Reloading - Having read many replies that mention reloading, I have done my research and my opinion has certainly changed on the subject! I think I would enjoy the process, and find satisfaction in seeing the fruits of my effort on the range, and subsequently on the animal that may be shot at a longer range. As many have alluded to, getting into reloading can produce superior results. I will definitely look into it more.
Not a very well thought out and worded original post I must admit, my bad on that one. Regardless, there has been some sound advice that has come my way. I get that people have their opinions about hunting at distance, but I feel that it is a practical part of my ambitions with hunting. I am confident that ambition will be a reality, only when my skills and confidence with ballistic compensation will be to the appropriate standard.
1. Hunting at distance - It is my ambition to hunt all over the world. To travel and experience different environments with different culture and wildlife. To take a shot 100-200m every time may not be practical. Some environments will likely require a longer shot. With that, I want the right tools for the job.
2. Experience level - Although relatively 'green' with shooting animals at over 200m, I would not consider myself completely inexperienced at shooting having grown up with firearms and spent some time target rifle shooting up to 600m, with more days that I could possibly remember on military ranges (I know, not the same at all but marksmanship principles etc are transferrable). I wont ever take a shot at an animal that is beyond my skill/experience level, which is always increasing.
3. Reloading - Having read many replies that mention reloading, I have done my research and my opinion has certainly changed on the subject! I think I would enjoy the process, and find satisfaction in seeing the fruits of my effort on the range, and subsequently on the animal that may be shot at a longer range. As many have alluded to, getting into reloading can produce superior results. I will definitely look into it more.
Not a very well thought out and worded original post I must admit, my bad on that one. Regardless, there has been some sound advice that has come my way. I get that people have their opinions about hunting at distance, but I feel that it is a practical part of my ambitions with hunting. I am confident that ambition will be a reality, only when my skills and confidence with ballistic compensation will be to the appropriate standard.
Some environments will likely require a longer shot. With that, I want the right tools for the job. I would be supporting this line, imagine going from a woodland stalking background, straight on to the harshest Scottish hill stalk, or even more of a quantum leap ...................... The Alpine Tahr.
johnnyha
Active Member
Wind is both predictable with a fair degree of accuracy, and measurable. Accepted that risk increases, but not exponentially
Im not getting drawn into it fella, you are clearly someone who likes a row and it’s a bad look for all concerned. See ya
Good solid answer @Ackers-303. Sets the matter straight, though you really shouldn’t need to explain yourself like that. I’ve been impressed with your approach and I’m sorry you’ve inadvertently attracted the wrong kind of attention. But it’s like that around here.
When I joined this forum, I was advised by a well known and respected member that I should keep my mouth shut about long range hunting, “because they don’t like it on here”, or words to that effect. We had a long conversation about the hunting related activities that cause a certain type of member a certain kind of offence.
The kind of offence that results in comments like “At least I’m not a Chris Kyle wannabe”, “but only if necessary not as some macho bravado B.S” or “It brings the whole sport into disrepute” and “the risk increases exponentially at long range” etc etc.
The member that advised me no longer participates here, as he got tired with the culture of glass-half-empty naysayers. We’d met up in NZ and stayed in touch, but he’s moved on other things. Can’t really say I blame him.
There’s a whole host of hunting activities that attract unfiltered opprobrium on this forum, mostly, it seems to me, from guys that have never actually participated in these activites. “Long range” is one, though of course very few people have an understanding of what proper long range even is, let alone the detailed preparation, knowledge, equipment, skill and patience involved. To them, it is a notion outside their frame of reference that possibly challenges their own self esteem and competence, so must therefore by default be wrong, so onto the bandwagon they climb and we’re off with another fight about ethics and wind and injured deer and so on.
We have the same issues with head shooting, neck shooting, calibres and cartridges, bow hunting, crossbows, shot placement... you name it. I’ve left our NZ pig hunting off the list because I’ve deliberately avoided bringing that to this particular table, because I know that many members simply won’t be able to handle it.
Those that practice these disciplines or make these choices are basically reviled as unethical scumbags in as many words! Yet I sit here as a 40yr+ veteran of all sorts of rifle hunting, bow hunting (though not for a long time now), hunting with dogs, trapping, netting, fishing and of course farming livestock, and I wonder, am I really an unethical scumbag? What is it these stuffy, one eyed Britishers don’t see about what we do? And why we do it? Is it tradition? Culture? The personality? Bit of everything really I suspect. I do certainly see a geographical pattern to it, for sure.
It’s definitely got a lot to do with tradition, tradition that comes from a time well before modern weaponry, optics, rangefinders, etc etc. I’ve experienced the auto-naysaying almost exclusively in Europe, whereas in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand its been a far more open minded culture of individual preferences and respect for skills, experience and success. A totally different culture altogether. That’s not to say that you don’t run into naysayers from time-to-time - certainly in the US there were some very parochial attitudes towards different types of hunting, mostly from guys who never travelled much outside their own county boundary, let alone across the state line.
But here’s the thing. The bit that really intrigues me about this constant stream of Stalking Directory disapproval about the ways of others...
They like driven shooting.
I get lambasted for choosing to shoot a stationery deer or a goat at 500m and posting a video. Oh you never post videos of all your fails. Oh you are a lazy, sniper wannabe loser so and so for not stalking in closer. Oh you’re using way too little gun. Oh you’re a Creedmoor fan boy, its a fad and you know nothing. Oh you must lose dozens of deer and just don’t own up to it. Sound familiar?
But next weekend, the very same naysayers are off to Germany to shoot running pigs. Or, if they can’t afford it (and in fact don’t really do much stalking at all anyway), they’ll happily engage in the threads of those that do. Bravo! Great effort! Lots of discussion of Blasers and Count Franz and all manner of grunty cartridges and the like.
Running pigs. And they run fast!
It’s really no different to the gamebirds. They’re flying, fast, and great kudos goes to those with the skill and panache (and deep pockets it seems) that sees them make spectacular kills with posh 12ga shotguns. But we all know that lots of birds get hit aft, with stray pellets...
Just like we all know that countless numbers of boar are hit and wounded and never recovered. It’s just a fact of life. What goes on behind the scenes on driven boar hunts is kept behind the scenes. It’s nowhere near as in your face blatant and grotesque as the helicopter hog hunters in Texas, but it happens nonetheless.
So I look at this glaring contradiction and say to myself this: I shoot deer with everything from a .308 open sights lever gun at 20 yards, to a custom 28 Nosler at 700m or more, and I make a massive effort to ensure that each and every animal gets sacked on the spot. DRT. Bang flopped. Smoked. Flattened. Sometimes they run on a bit, mortally wounded, but not often. Very rarely - once in the last five or so years - I lose a deer that I can’t find at the time. (Though the last one was found, two days later, which I wrote up on here.) And as such, I’m going to continue advocating for what we do and if that means having regular scraps with the ignorant, then so be it!
I’ve developed a dozen or more really solid acquaintances through this forum, helping guys get ahead in different aspects of hunting, and I’ve really, really enjoyed it, and its immensely satisfying to see their successes on the email. Bugger the naysayers.
It’s not always been plain sailing in the field though. As our personal business interests and relationships have expanded, inevitably requests to go hunting are made, and usually with me, reluctantly agreed to. Several times in the past few years I’ve had the misfortune to guide people that don’t know their arse from their elbow. I’ve lain in the thistles and sheep shite and watched a guy shoot two red deer at 150yd with a .300 Win Mag and completely screw it up, causing the wounded deer to bolt and be lost forever in the chasms of scrub and native bush on our block. That incident resulted in the mandatory 400yd dinner plate test. In 2011, I spent 3 hours reluctantly stalking in on a pair of good 12-14 point red stags with a client of my business partner, only for him to clean miss the best animal at no more than 50yds with his grotesque “classic” double rifle, and then go and shoot the fleeing second stag up the arse with the second barrel. I actually threatened that man with a hiding and he damn near got it.
Now I won’t take anyone I don’t know and trust. I hunt today only with a small cadre of blokes dedicated to doing the best job we can in the circumstances we have in front of us. Long range, close range, different species, dogs or no dogs, different rifles, different types of bullet, dawn, daylight, dusk and night vision, together or alone... with my wife, sons, mates and my fantastic cousins from England and the US.
But on this forum, a lot of what we do gets lambasted and castigated by small minded men with no experience outside a narrow frame of reference. Incendiary words maybe, but, largely, sadly, true.
But you like shooting at running or flying animals.
Go figure.
When I joined this forum, I was advised by a well known and respected member that I should keep my mouth shut about long range hunting, “because they don’t like it on here”, or words to that effect. We had a long conversation about the hunting related activities that cause a certain type of member a certain kind of offence.
The kind of offence that results in comments like “At least I’m not a Chris Kyle wannabe”, “but only if necessary not as some macho bravado B.S” or “It brings the whole sport into disrepute” and “the risk increases exponentially at long range” etc etc.
The member that advised me no longer participates here, as he got tired with the culture of glass-half-empty naysayers. We’d met up in NZ and stayed in touch, but he’s moved on other things. Can’t really say I blame him.
There’s a whole host of hunting activities that attract unfiltered opprobrium on this forum, mostly, it seems to me, from guys that have never actually participated in these activites. “Long range” is one, though of course very few people have an understanding of what proper long range even is, let alone the detailed preparation, knowledge, equipment, skill and patience involved. To them, it is a notion outside their frame of reference that possibly challenges their own self esteem and competence, so must therefore by default be wrong, so onto the bandwagon they climb and we’re off with another fight about ethics and wind and injured deer and so on.
We have the same issues with head shooting, neck shooting, calibres and cartridges, bow hunting, crossbows, shot placement... you name it. I’ve left our NZ pig hunting off the list because I’ve deliberately avoided bringing that to this particular table, because I know that many members simply won’t be able to handle it.
Those that practice these disciplines or make these choices are basically reviled as unethical scumbags in as many words! Yet I sit here as a 40yr+ veteran of all sorts of rifle hunting, bow hunting (though not for a long time now), hunting with dogs, trapping, netting, fishing and of course farming livestock, and I wonder, am I really an unethical scumbag? What is it these stuffy, one eyed Britishers don’t see about what we do? And why we do it? Is it tradition? Culture? The personality? Bit of everything really I suspect. I do certainly see a geographical pattern to it, for sure.
It’s definitely got a lot to do with tradition, tradition that comes from a time well before modern weaponry, optics, rangefinders, etc etc. I’ve experienced the auto-naysaying almost exclusively in Europe, whereas in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand its been a far more open minded culture of individual preferences and respect for skills, experience and success. A totally different culture altogether. That’s not to say that you don’t run into naysayers from time-to-time - certainly in the US there were some very parochial attitudes towards different types of hunting, mostly from guys who never travelled much outside their own county boundary, let alone across the state line.
But here’s the thing. The bit that really intrigues me about this constant stream of Stalking Directory disapproval about the ways of others...
They like driven shooting.
I get lambasted for choosing to shoot a stationery deer or a goat at 500m and posting a video. Oh you never post videos of all your fails. Oh you are a lazy, sniper wannabe loser so and so for not stalking in closer. Oh you’re using way too little gun. Oh you’re a Creedmoor fan boy, its a fad and you know nothing. Oh you must lose dozens of deer and just don’t own up to it. Sound familiar?
But next weekend, the very same naysayers are off to Germany to shoot running pigs. Or, if they can’t afford it (and in fact don’t really do much stalking at all anyway), they’ll happily engage in the threads of those that do. Bravo! Great effort! Lots of discussion of Blasers and Count Franz and all manner of grunty cartridges and the like.
Running pigs. And they run fast!
It’s really no different to the gamebirds. They’re flying, fast, and great kudos goes to those with the skill and panache (and deep pockets it seems) that sees them make spectacular kills with posh 12ga shotguns. But we all know that lots of birds get hit aft, with stray pellets...
Just like we all know that countless numbers of boar are hit and wounded and never recovered. It’s just a fact of life. What goes on behind the scenes on driven boar hunts is kept behind the scenes. It’s nowhere near as in your face blatant and grotesque as the helicopter hog hunters in Texas, but it happens nonetheless.
So I look at this glaring contradiction and say to myself this: I shoot deer with everything from a .308 open sights lever gun at 20 yards, to a custom 28 Nosler at 700m or more, and I make a massive effort to ensure that each and every animal gets sacked on the spot. DRT. Bang flopped. Smoked. Flattened. Sometimes they run on a bit, mortally wounded, but not often. Very rarely - once in the last five or so years - I lose a deer that I can’t find at the time. (Though the last one was found, two days later, which I wrote up on here.) And as such, I’m going to continue advocating for what we do and if that means having regular scraps with the ignorant, then so be it!
I’ve developed a dozen or more really solid acquaintances through this forum, helping guys get ahead in different aspects of hunting, and I’ve really, really enjoyed it, and its immensely satisfying to see their successes on the email. Bugger the naysayers.
It’s not always been plain sailing in the field though. As our personal business interests and relationships have expanded, inevitably requests to go hunting are made, and usually with me, reluctantly agreed to. Several times in the past few years I’ve had the misfortune to guide people that don’t know their arse from their elbow. I’ve lain in the thistles and sheep shite and watched a guy shoot two red deer at 150yd with a .300 Win Mag and completely screw it up, causing the wounded deer to bolt and be lost forever in the chasms of scrub and native bush on our block. That incident resulted in the mandatory 400yd dinner plate test. In 2011, I spent 3 hours reluctantly stalking in on a pair of good 12-14 point red stags with a client of my business partner, only for him to clean miss the best animal at no more than 50yds with his grotesque “classic” double rifle, and then go and shoot the fleeing second stag up the arse with the second barrel. I actually threatened that man with a hiding and he damn near got it.
Now I won’t take anyone I don’t know and trust. I hunt today only with a small cadre of blokes dedicated to doing the best job we can in the circumstances we have in front of us. Long range, close range, different species, dogs or no dogs, different rifles, different types of bullet, dawn, daylight, dusk and night vision, together or alone... with my wife, sons, mates and my fantastic cousins from England and the US.
But on this forum, a lot of what we do gets lambasted and castigated by small minded men with no experience outside a narrow frame of reference. Incendiary words maybe, but, largely, sadly, true.
But you like shooting at running or flying animals.
Go figure.
Last edited:
reiver
Well-Known Member
Them that can !Do
Those who can not ! talk about it
Springs to mind often on here .
I often think of contributing to a topic then think Naa just keep quiet
and leave it to the experts ? Though I am an expert in everything .
Reiver
Long range for me, & I would have to up skill quite a bit before a lifetimes trip, Here, .. some guys are using .25-06 Rem, I would take either the PRC 6.5 that is in build or the .300 Win mag.
. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=cjYiuLA_Pvo&usg=AOvVaw2pd_UB9OpREDlO_iCIKo7U
. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=cjYiuLA_Pvo&usg=AOvVaw2pd_UB9OpREDlO_iCIKo7U
Depends on the quality of the scope and who says the deer will be anywhere near a tree anyway?
Good post.
Getting into reloading will produce superior results, open the opportunity to use both projectiles that are not generally loaded in factory ammo but also for cartridges that are a bit ‘out there’.
Reloading is no dark art, if you can follow instruction and a recipe it’s straightforward
Availability has improved somewhat,
, 
Accuracy is such that no point reloading, unless for non lead.
, Accuracy is such that no point reloading, unless for non lead.
I used a .270 for years, and now use a PRC.
They are very, very similar.
The PRC seems a touch easier to get really exceptional accuracy from. It also seems a bit more resistant to wind drift, but that’s almost certainly down to the bullets I use.
I don’t think there’s enough of a difference in performance to get worked up about.
Would the Tikka magazine be a limitation of what weight (i.e length hence B.C) projectiles you are using?
The PRC seems a bit confusing st first, it is technically a short action 'Magnum' round but needs a long action to get full use out of the case with a slippery bullet.
I would wager that after 400m the 6.5 bullets performance will be dropping the 6.8's very quickly indeed.
Ahem, a "6.5mm" bullet is actually 0.264", or 6.7mm
Whereas a .270 shoots .277" bullets, 7mm.
There is nothing in it, other than that the 6.5mm bullets are attracting all the development at the moment, which will continue. So, yes, the 6.5 PRC has everything going for it. Not so much the .270. Unless you think that 0.3mm makes all the difference.
Winchester would like you to think different, hence the 6.8 Western... althrough I suspect it will turn out to be another dud, much like the .270 WSM/WSSM
The nomenclature 6.5 and .270 of course refers to bore diameter, not bullet diameter. But I think we already know that. Both terms are used interchangeably, so, ahem, it doesn’t really need correcting, we all know what we’re talking about anyway.
And yes that is 0.3 mm does make a big difference.
The performance of common factory budget and mid-range ammunition in .270 cal - e.g. Hornady American Whitetail 130gr - isn’t a patch on the premium ammunition available for 6.5 PRC such as Hornady Precision Hunter. The clue is in the name - Precision Rifle Cartridge.
Granted there will be some 270 Winchester shooters out there who shoot the 145gr ELD-X, either hand loaded or in the Precision Hunter factory ammo. But I’ll bet that it’s not very many. In turn, I would wager that the vast majority of 6.5 PRC shooters will be using the highest BC bullets they can get their hands on and ringing every last foot per second out of their loads.
I agree that there is next to nothing in it between the two cartridges when the comparison is made using similar premium projectiles, e.g. 143gr vs 145gr ELD-X in the same ammo line. But if you look at the 270 with common 130gr factory ammunition or the average home loader’s pet load, the 6.5 will leave it for dead after 400m. Pretty soon we will have ultra-high BC 160gr 6.5mm offerings available, and with the fast twist of the PRC it is not length limited like the 270 is, and then the performance delta will become even greater.
In the business of long-range shooting, small incremental improvements make big differences to the end result, whether its target shooting in competition or hunting a nice fat deer. That’s why we have new cartridges that do things just that wee bit better... I’ll never get my head around why this is such a problem for a certain kind of grumbler!
I’ll keep saying the same thing - by the time many of the older guys hang up their boots there will be a whole new generation of fast twist, high BC chamberings that will be the norm in popular sporting rifles. It’s already happening and it’s just going to increase, for good reason. It will be interesting to see which of the early 20th Century cartridges survive.
Either the 270 or 6.5 prc will work just fine. Find the platform you like, do the shooting learn the drop. I have my limits on how far I will shoot at un wounded game, others have a much further limit. Let your skill level and ethic's decide what you are willing to do.
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