8x57 Jrs Double rifle advice.

[Dalua]

There are two schools of thought on regulation

1: Regulated at a specific distance (ie 50, 70 or 100 yrds etc.)

2: Both shots parallel to infinity (or perpendicular in the case of an over and under. )

My 8 x 60 prints two shots the same distance apart at 70 yrds as the distance between the centres of the bore at the muzzle which if how I prefer things.

That is with a scope, without the scope they open up a bit due to the lack of inertia the scope weight adds to the twisting movement of the recoil (mine is a side by side) but nothing drastic enough to make any odds at any distance that I would use the open sights at.

Anyway, enjoy your Double Rifle , they are fascinating...

Taking the last point first, they are fascinating - but one should keep in mind that it is no coincidence that 'fascination' shares a significant number of letters with 'frustration'.

On the matter of regulation, I can understand how a rifle should be regulated to shoot both barrels together with a particular load at a particular distance: the barrels have to be adjusted so that the centre-lines of the bores cross to just the right extent that the desired result is achieved - as I say, specifically to a particular load and range (and sight, of course).

It is less-clear to me how both shots can be parallel to infinity. Is this really possible, given the dynamics of the rifle during firing?

If your 8x60 shoots the groups the same distance apart as the muzzles at 70yds, where is the crossover? Presumably if at that range the right barrel shoots right and the left left, then it's regulated slightly further away than 70yds. If the other way round, slightly nearer? Having said that, depending on the group sizes of the two barrels relative to the distance between the muzzles, that might well just count as regulated at 70yds?

 

[Ade8mm]

Yes to all points raised- hence the fascination/frustration as you correctly put it. I quoted 70yrds as that is the range at which I did my final tests after working up a load. Given the result that was sufficient. (That in no way means my rifle is regulated for both barrels poi at 70yrds) My DR is NOT regulated for both barrels same poi at any given range. - see previous post.
You need to bear in mind group theory. Imagine two rifles, separate but together ~ weird I know.
That is what you have with parallel regulated barrels.
Yes of course not only will both "individual" barrel groups open up as range increases but so will the pair of them in a double.
A double rifle is not, and never was intended to be a long range sporting tool to but that is not to say it can't be.
If you have a scope, which from your photos it appears you do, then you have a valid single-shot for whatever distance you desire (scope zero) and a quick back-up shot at that same distance - if you you have done your homework.

DR ownership is a journey that whilst sometimes challenging is very worthwhile I find.

No quick fix but rewarding.
Hope this helps.

If not I am sure there are plenty of others who can help you out by taking it off your hands

 

[Dalua]

Yes to all points raised- hence the fascination/frustration as you correctly put it. I quoted 70yrds as that is the range at which I did my final tests after working up a load. Given the result that was sufficient. (That in no way means my rifle is regulated for both barrels poi at 70yrds) My DR is NOT regulated for both barrels same poi at any given range. - see previous post.
You need to bear in mind group theory. Imagine two rifles, separate but together ~ weird I know.
That is what you have with parallel regulated barrels.

I'm afraid I still don't understand what is meant by 'parallel regulated barrels'. Either the barrels are regulated, or their axes are parallel - I don't think you can have both.

If they're parallel, the right barrel of a s/s will shoot right, and the left will shoot left, and never the twain shall meet. If it's an o/u, the upper will shoot higher than the lower. That is not a state of 'regulation', which i understand to mean that the barrels are so adjusted as to give a composite group with particular ammunition at a particular range.

How does do the groups of your 8x60 look when you fire three pairs at the same point of aim at 70yds? Can you tell which barrel each of the six shots is from just by looking at target after you've shot all six?

 

[Ade8mm]

I'm afraid I still don't understand what is meant by 'parallel regulated barrels'. Either the barrels are regulated, or their axes are parallel - I don't think you can have both.

If they're parallel, the right barrel of a s/s will shoot right, and the left will shoot left, and never the twain shall meet. If it's an o/u, the upper will shoot higher than the lower. That is not a state of 'regulation', which i understand to mean that the barrels are so adjusted as to give a composite group with particular ammunition at a particular range.

How does do the groups of your 8x60 look when you fire three pairs at the same point of aim at 70yds? Can you tell which barrel each of the six shots is from just by looking at target after you've shot all six?

I think you should re-read what I have posted, yes left - and right barell shoot (as I said) at the same distance, apart at range, as the muzzles are apart the the end of the gun . The rifle is regulated but NOT so that left and right cross at any given range. I have regulated it myself that way by careful and painstaking load development.
I believe I have been pretty clear. Not sure what you fail to comprehend - must be me?
Given all that, my experience is with SxS not O/U though I think there are general principles that apply to both.

Welcome to the dark art of double rifles

 

[Dalua]

I think you should re-read what I have posted, yes left - and right barrel shoot (as I said) at the same distance, apart at range, as the muzzles are apart the the end of the gun . The rifle is regulated but NOT so that left and right cross at any given range. I have regulated it myself that way by careful and painstaking load development.
I believe I have been pretty clear. Not sure what you fail to comprehend - must be me?

What I fail to comprehend is that if the barrels are converging (which is what you'd expect), I'd imagine there is a cross-over point somewhere along the way, even though this must in your case be beyond 70yds, as left is still shooting left at that range, and right right.

If they were parallel, or (horror) diverging, I can't imagine the fall of shot would be as close as you describe at 70yds.

 

[Ade8mm]

Addendum. It is worthwhile remembering that the early double rifles in larger calibres were "stopper rifles" so regulated to "cross" at 50 yrds or so made sense. Also bear in mind the early 'smiths that made them were City based and did not have facilities for longer range regulation ( think Greener's and Westley Richards in Birmingham for example. Even now at their new facility W R have a 50 yrd range under the car park in Birmingham. Things have progressed a little since then.

 

[Dalua]

I think doubles in medium to heavy (Africa) calibres still tend to be regulated at 50yds/m, as that's the range they're reckoned to be likely to be used at. AFAIK 9.3mm and lighter certainly used to be regulated at 100yds/m - and indeed should shoot a perfectly-useable composite group at that range.

I guess it's the 'composite group' thing I'm interested in with Ade's rifle: the distance apart of the bore-centres at the muzzle relative to the group-size of each barrel, and the two together, at 70yds.

The physics of these rifles is interesting, and does sometimes seem to defy straightforward explanation.

 

[Whatmuff]

Replicating the regulation load shouldn’t be impossible with some ( or a lot of regulation).

the cartridge your rifle is regulated with is a good one for a double rifle in 8x57, those Alaska bullets are soft enough to kill well but heavy enough to hold together on the heaviest game you’re likely to use it on.

I am pretty sure the 8mm Alaskan 196 grain bullet is available as a reloading component, don’t worry too much if you can get the exact same bullet but do start off your home loading adventure with bullets of 196 grains, to make things easier for you, and try and load to the velocity you chronograph the Norma factory ammo to be.

this ought to give you a basis for experimentation.

as others have said, if you want precise shooting zero one barrel precisely and accept that the second shot is going to be by reloading that barrel in such circumstances.

did you ask bettinsoli if the was an adjustable regulation mechanism on your rifle?

I've had a look and can't find any adjustment. I think they're factory fixed by the looks of things. I'll check out those 196gr bullets as that would be as said a great place to start the load up from. Now just to find some Norma 196gr ammo...

 

[Jagdmatch]

i assumed that the EAW mounts would just fit together but not the case. The rear mount was oversized so a rewind to metal work in 1975 was required and some files, the front swivel again was oversized so I used an old mount that fited as a template for the filing. It was an all day job and TBH involves some electrical tape shims in the front swivel to ensure a very tight fit but retains zero very well.

 

[Ade8mm]

"How does do the groups of your 8x60 look when you fire three pairs at the same point of aim at 70yds? Can you tell which barrel each of the six shots is from just by looking at target after you've shot all six?"

Put two targets up . One left, one right . One target for each barrel them superimpose them.

 

[Grandhubert]

I've had a look and can't find any adjustment. I think they're factory fixed by the looks of things. I'll check out those 196gr bullets as that would be as said a great place to start the load up from. Now just to find some Norma 196gr ammo...

It’s worth trying any reasonable 196 grain factory ammo to manage to find in my opinion, you might just get lucky and it shoots.

 

[Whatmuff]

It’s worth trying any reasonable 196 grain factory ammo to manage to find in my opinion, you might just get lucky and it shoots.

Great shout. I've emailed a few close suppliers of Ruag and Viking to see what they can get hold of. Thanks again, you've been very helpful

 

[Ade8mm]

There are doubtless scientific explanations for double rifle "regulation"

However.. that has never been brought to bear , probably as it is far too subjective for scientists.

For that I am glad.

As I stated earlier double rifles are a dark art and one of the great things about them is if you get one and do the hard yards getting a load that shoots well at the distances you choose to hunt with it is most satisfying.

Once that has been achieved your confidence in it will be far greater than might have been achieved with other guns.

You will also have a very quick back up shot (if you have done your homework)

Whilst one accepts they are not to everyone's taste (marmite) they are great fun and are more than sufficient for anything rom Muntjac in woodland to Reds on the hill.

 

[Ade8mm]

There are doubtless scientific explanations for double rifle "regulation"

However.. that has never been brought to bear , probably as it is far too subjective for scientists.

For that I am glad.

As I stated earlier double rifles are a dark art and one of the great things about them is if you get one and do the hard yards getting a load that shoots well at the distances you choose to hunt with it is most satisfying.

Once that has been achieved your confidence in it will be far greater than might have been achieved with other guns.

You will also have a very quick back up shot (if you have done your homework)

Whilst one accepts they are not to everyone's taste (marmite) they are great fun and are more than sufficient for anything from Muntjac in woodland to Reds on the hill.

 

[Dalua]

"How does do the groups of your 8x60 look when you fire three pairs at the same point of aim at 70yds? Can you tell which barrel each of the six shots is from just by looking at target after you've shot all six?"

Put two targets up . One left, one right . One target for each barrel them superimpose them.

Ah - what I actually meant was whether, having fired all six shots at the same point of aim you could work out which shot came from which barrel by looking at the position of the holes. Because if you can't then it's a decent composite group, suggesting it's regulated for that load at that distance.

 

[Jagare]

Merkel regulate their rifles at 50 mtrs. Mine was regulated with Lapua 180 grn Naturalis. I think you'll find most double rifles are regulated at about the 50 mtr range. The double rifle is for driven game and up close and personal shots on dangerous game. There are better rifles for longer shots. I've shot red deer at the 100 mtr mark but it comes into its own at driven game ranges. Stick to 50 mtrs for finding the rounds that work best in your rifle. you should be able to get both shots in a 50 mm group at 50 mtrs and then your ready for any driven day.
I may have some Norma Alaska and Oryx bullets over in my reloading room if you want a few for load development.
In the photo is the load I use. Its good for any range I'm likely to encounter on a driven day. Killed quite a few boar, fallow and red with it so far

 

[Dalua]

Merkel regulate their rifles at 50 mtrs.

That wasn't the case in 1990, when mine was built. The factory target shows a composite groups of six shots at 100m - which is IMO sensible for a non-DG rifle (i.e. 9.3mm and smaller). Theoretically, if set to cross-over at 100m, it would be as near as makes no difference at 50m anyway - so all good for double-shots at shorter ranges also.

 

[Ade8mm]

That wasn't the case in 1990, when mine was built. The factory target shows a composite groups of six shots at 100m - which is IMO sensible for a non-DG rifle (i.e. 9.3mm and smaller). Theoretically, if set to cross-over at 100m, it would be as near as makes no difference at 50m anyway - so all good for double-shots at shorter ranges also.

There you are.

If they cross at 100 metres they should be the same distance apart (uncross) at 200 metres as they are at the muzzles.

Depends what you are trying to kill of course but sufficient unto the day methinks

 

[Whatmuff]

Merkel regulate their rifles at 50 mtrs. Mine was regulated with Lapua 180 grn Naturalis. I think you'll find most double rifles are regulated at about the 50 mtr range. The double rifle is for driven game and up close and personal shots on dangerous game. There are better rifles for longer shots. I've shot red deer at the 100 mtr mark but it comes into its own at driven game ranges. Stick to 50 mtrs for finding the rounds that work best in your rifle. you should be able to get both shots in a 50 mm group at 50 mtrs and then your ready for any driven day.
I may have some Norma Alaska and Oryx bullets over in my reloading room if you want a few for load development.
In the photo is the load I use. Its good for any range I'm likely to encounter on a driven day. Killed quite a few boar, fallow and red with it so far

Very cool, that's a cracking group. If you have any that would be great I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Dalua]

If they cross at 100 metres they should be the same distance apart (uncross) at 200 metres as they are at the muzzles.

The best I can say is that the centres of the groups just might be the same distance apart as the centres of the bores at the muzzles - though I suspect that as with much else to do with double-rifles, it isn't that straightforward.

The range alone could answer that question - and it is currently, alas, closed.