8x57 Jrs Double rifle advice.

[Whatmuff]

Good Morning all

I've had some great advice on reloading here with regards to my Merkel and I thought I'd pop back for some advice on a new rifle I have.

I've bought a Betinsoli 8x57 JRS Double rifle and it's awesome. I took it to my range yesterday and zeroed it and then at 80m fired 2 3round groups. I've attached the picture of the groups. It was off sticks and I can't say I was exactly stable as I was getting used to the trigger and kick as it's different from my Merkel. Barrels were cooled in between barrels.

So what's the deal with regards to point of impact and range? Do they always shoot apart at all ranges, or is there a point say 50m where both points of impact converge? I'm looking to come up with some reloads for these, I have N150 and a box of Barnes 160gr Ttsx that came with the rifle, so I'll start with the data on the Viht website first and work some up.

Also I've been reading on double rifle forums that they don't like being shot of shooting bags and need zeroing from hand.... Any advice would be great.

Thanks again.

Dan

 

[Grandhubert]

Congratulations on your new rifle.

double rifles are more finicky beasts that bolt actions, they shoot to something called “regulation”.

this means that they are designed to be shot with a particular type of ammunition and physically adjusted during manufacture to shoot that load tightly and to point of aim.

differwnt ammunition to that which the rifle was regulated can result in wide groups and different points of impacts between the barrels.

some double rifles have an adjustable barrel wedge to allow for some degree of tuning to different types of ammunition but I’m not sure if yours does.
In short, try a few different types and weights of ammunition and stick to what works.

 

[Whatmuff]

Congratulations on your new rifle.

double rifles are more finicky beasts that bolt actions, they shoot to something called “regulation”.

this means that they are designed to be shot with a particular type of ammunition and physically adjusted during manufacture to shoot that load tightly and to point of aim.

differwnt ammunition to that which the rifle was regulated can result in wide groups and different points of impacts between the barrels.

some double rifles have an adjustable barrel wedge to allow for some degree of tuning to different types of ammunition but I’m not sure if yours does.
In short, try a few different types and weights of ammunition and stick to what works.

Many thanks that's great advice. I've emailed Betinsoli and they said Norma in the pic below and at 50mts. I just wondered if I could reload something a little similar to the performance as 8x57 JRS in the UK is hard to come by.... Many thanks again I'll see if I can get some factory ammo in from somewhere.

All the best

 

[Heym SR20]

The way to shoot double rifles is to hold them firmly as you would shoot off hand, but then support your forhand elbows etc with bags. I have. Portable rest called the roof of the car and lay my my forhand across a half full backpack, with a small bean bag below my trigger hand. Triggers on doubles are not like triggers on target rifles. Squeeze the whole rifle.

A double is designed to shoot and are regulated to shoot bang and bang - ie front trigger, then back trigger. Not front trigger wait ten minutes then back trigger.

I wouldn’t read too much from off stick shooting.

Most Doubles are regulated so that barrels converge at some point - typically 80 to 100 yards down range. Been talking recently with Craig Boddington on this matter - his general experience is that higher velocities cause barrels to shoot apart, lower velocities cause them to cross. Best is to mimic factory velocities to start of with.

But some doubles with some loads shoot parallel so bullets don’t cross.


Forget all you know about rifles from what you have learned from bolt actions. Changing anything - like adding or removing a scope can have a big effect on regulation. With a side by side you have the twist of right barrel recoiling up to the right and left up to the left to contend with. And recoil starts and barrels start to move as soon as the hammer falls.

You also need to manage expectations. Individual barrels can and do shoot very well, and from a cold barrel will shoot small groups. No reason why you cannot use a double to shoot at good ranges provided you know how the first barrel shoots, and treat it as a single shot.

With the second barrel you are looking for it to shoot close enough with a quick 2nd shot. Ideally you want it nice and close, but in practice if both shots are going into a side plate sized group at 60 yds that will be good enough for any fast shooting that you will be doing with a double.

 

[Whatmuff]

Thank you Heym that's really great advice. It's a pleasure to shoot but I think as you say I need to start focusing on that 1st barrel and getting some ammunition sorted for practicing now. Then I can work on the 2nd barrel.

 

[Heym SR20]

Looking at your original photos, i wpuld adjust the sights so centre of group is centre of target at 80m.

looking more closely i see its an over and under - makes life easier, and looks that both barrels are pretty close windage wise.

Which barrels fire first - i assume bottom. I zero my 7x65r so bottom barrel is just a touch high at 80m. This is then a bit high at 100 and bang on again at about 180m. I have a liner barrel that drops down the shot barrel to give me a double rifle, and provided its close enough I am not too worried. It’s the first barrel that always counts in longer shots.

What reticle does the scope have - that can make a big difference when shooting groups? For a No4 I like a white cross on a large black square. For a red dot - a large black ring with a white centre.

These naturally cause you eye to centre the reticle - think open target sights. I have always found a dot very difficult to shoot at with cross hairs - not so much with high magnification, but more so with low power scopes.

 

[8x57]

Triggers on doubles are not like triggers on target rifles.

A double is designed to shoot and are regulated to shoot bang and bang

Forget all you know about rifles from what you have learned from bolt actions. Changing anything - like adding or removing a scope can have a big effect on regulation.

You also need to manage expectations. Individual barrels can and do shoot very well, and from a cold barrel will shoot small groups. No reason why you cannot use a double to shoot at good ranges provided you know how the first barrel shoots, and treat it as a single shot.

With the second barrel you are looking for it to shoot close enough with a quick 2nd shot. Ideally you want it nice and close, but in practice if both shots are going into a side plate sized group at 60 yds that will be good enough for any fast shooting that you will be doing with a double.

I think you have absolutely nailed it with the above points Heym. The only thing that I would differ from you is in respect of distance that the rifle is regulated for, many are regulated for 50 metres rather than 60 metres.
They're bloody great to shoot aren't they. But some can also be totally infuriating to find a good home load for.

 

[Whatmuff]

Looking at your original photos, i wpuld adjust the sights so centre of group is centre of target at 80m.

looking more closely i see its an over and under - makes life easier, and looks that both barrels are pretty close windage wise.

Which barrels fire first - i assume bottom. I zero my 7x65r so bottom barrel is just a touch high at 80m. This is then a bit high at 100 and bang on again at about 180m. I have a liner barrel that drops down the shot barrel to give me a double rifle, and provided its close enough I am not too worried. It’s the first barrel that always counts in longer shots.

What reticle does the scope have - that can make a big difference when shooting groups? For a No4 I like a white cross on a large black square. For a red dot - a large black ring with a white centre.

These naturally cause you eye to centre the reticle - think open target sights. I have always found a dot very difficult to shoot at with cross hairs - not so much with high magnification, but more so with low power scopes.

So I've attached the reticle I'm working with on the vortex. It shoots lower barrel first, so I'll raise that impact point up and right and that should bring the top barrel up and right however will still shoot low. Yes the wind age seems fine it's just the drop between the two barrels that needs sorting. I think I'll try some factory and see what it's giving me. And I have a basic load with N150 I can start to try as well. I really love shooting it and I can believe there aren't that many in the UK.

 

[Corvid8x57]

I used to have a Bettinsoli 8x57 JRS & the 196 grain Sellier & Bellot ammunition worked well in it & it seemed to be regulated at about 50m.

 

[spannulman]

i don’t have a double but have spent years daydreaming about one I might be able to afford. I can’t help in the way others have but I have seen some, I can’t recall whether bettinsoli or chapuis, which have a kind of wedge system between the barrels and under the fore-end which you adjust the poi with.or how the POI converge at a given distance.

does yours have this? It might be possible to regulate the point where the rounds converge for yourself.

 

[Dalua]

If I'd known about double rifles what I know now, I would never have bought one (not, at least, a non-adjustable one) without shooting it to demonstrate that it was indeed regulated.

So, some further useful info from Bettinsoli would be which Norma load it was regulated for, and whether they regulated using the iron sights, or a scope. If regulated with the iron sights, as is probable, then I'd shoot first at 50m with those sights, and load a bullet of the weight used for regulation at about the same velocity as the factory-load - and see what happens, It is not unheard in s/h rifles for regulation to have been adjusted to suit a previous owner - so one doesn't always get what one is expecting - particularly if the 'scope was fitted after manufacture.

As remarked already mentioned each pair of shots should be fired Bottom barrel Bang - 3-5seconds - Top barrel Bang from cold barrels, and using a field-realistic grip with rested front wrist and elbows. At the range where it's regulated for a particular load, you should ideally get a composite group - meaning you can't tell by looking at the diagram which shot came from which barrel.

Heym - was your discussion with Craig Boddington about s/s rifles?

 

[Whatmuff]

i don’t have a double but have spent years daydreaming about one I might be able to afford. I can’t help in the way others have but I have seen some, I can’t recall whether bettinsoli or chapuis, which have a kind of wedge system between the barrels and under the fore-end which you adjust the poi with.or how the POI converge at a given distance.

does yours have this? It might be possible to regulate the point where the rounds converge for yourself.

I think it does have an adjustment under the for end, however I'm hesitant to touch it with my little knowledge on them so far, as I'd probably end up doing something that would affect point of impact. Once I get more information on it I may start to have a play. Ideally I'd like the 1st barrel (lower) to shoot sub inch at 100m and the other 6 inches of the 1st group. I'll have a check and see if it can be adjusted

 

[Whatmuff]

If I'd known about double rifles what I know now, I would never have bought one (not, at least, a non-adjustable one) without shooting it to demonstrate that it was indeed regulated.

So, some further useful info from Bettinsoli would be which Norma load it was regulated for, and whether they regulated using the iron sights, or a scope. If regulated with the iron sights, as is probable, then I'd shoot first at 50m with those sights, and load a bullet of the weight used for regulation at about the same velocity as the factory-load - and see what happens, It is not unheard in s/h rifles for regulation to have been adjusted to suit a previous owner - so one doesn't always get what one is expecting - particularly if the 'scope was fitted after manufacture.

As remarked already mentioned each pair of shots should be fired Bottom barrel Bang - 3-5seconds - Top barrel Bang from cold barrels, and using a field-realistic grip with rested front wrist and elbows. At the range where it's regulated for a particular load, you should ideally get a composite group - meaning you can't tell by looking at the diagram which shot came from which barrel.

Heym - was your discussion with Craig Boddington about s/s rifles?

Great stuff thank you for the advice. I'll see if I can get some factory ammo and I'll ask them what their test procedure is. Below is the ammunition Betinsolli set the rifle up with.

 

[Border]

@Jagare

 

[Jagare]

Sight in at 50mtrs with the same ammo that the rifle was regulated with if you have that info. If possible shoot supported from a standing position, car roof. I built a bench that I can stand at and I rest my hand on a bag. You must fired the second barrel in under 10 seconds after firing the first shot. try and hold the rifle as near to the way you would hold the rifle when hunting. The original Khales scope that came factory fitted to the rifle had a illuminated dot that covered the 10cm dot in the first target shot at 112mtrs it would also cover the 5cm dot on the 50 mtr target.
shooting a double well is a bit of a knack but once you've mastered it its great fun shooting a double. Both targets were shot with home loads. I have a mono bullet load that shoots exactly like the lead bullets but about a inch and a half higher. On the target It shows the powder as Norma 203B but I now Reload with Vit N140

 

[Grandhubert]

Replicating the regulation load shouldn’t be impossible with some ( or a lot of regulation).

the cartridge your rifle is regulated with is a good one for a double rifle in 8x57, those Alaska bullets are soft enough to kill well but heavy enough to hold together on the heaviest game you’re likely to use it on.

I am pretty sure the 8mm Alaskan 196 grain bullet is available as a reloading component, don’t worry too much if you can get the exact same bullet but do start off your home loading adventure with bullets of 196 grains, to make things easier for you, and try and load to the velocity you chronograph the Norma factory ammo to be.

this ought to give you a basis for experimentation.

as others have said, if you want precise shooting zero one barrel precisely and accept that the second shot is going to be by reloading that barrel in such circumstances.

did you ask bettinsoli if the was an adjustable regulation mechanism on your rifle?

 

[Ade8mm]

I think you have absolutely nailed it with the above points Heym. The only thing that I would differ from you is in respect of distance that the rifle is regulated for, many are regulated for 50 metres rather than 60 metres.
They're bloody great to shoot aren't they. But some can also be totally infuriating to find a good home load for.

^^^ What he said with one small addition. If you plan to hunt with it off sticks then you should check your zero off sticks BUT have your fore-end hand in the V of the sticks not the fore-end alone resting on the sticks. (See below - my lad a few years ago having his first shot with my DR - "Do you want the scope Son?", "No thanks Dad, they're for old men"! )



There are two schools of thought on regulation

1: Regulated at a specific distance (ie 50, 70 or 100 yrds etc.)

2: Both shots parallel to infinity (or perpendicular in the case of an over and under. )

My 8 x 60 prints two shots the same distance apart at 70 yrds as the distance between the centres of the bore at the muzzle which if how I prefer things.

That is with a scope, without the scope they open up a bit due to the lack of inertia the scope weight adds to the twisting movement of the recoil (mine is a side by side) but nothing drastic enough to make any odds at any distance that I would use the open sights at.

Anyway, enjoy your Double Rifle , they are fascinating...

 

[8x57]

I think it does have an adjustment under the for end, however I'm hesitant to touch it with my little knowledge on them so far, as I'd probably end up doing something that would affect point of impact. Once I get more information on it I may start to have a play. Ideally I'd like the 1st barrel (lower) to shoot sub inch at 100m and the other 6 inches of the 1st group. I'll have a check and see if it can be adjusted

All the Bettinsoli express rifles that I have seen had the barrels regulated and fixed in the factory but it is at least 6 years since I looked at one and they may well have introduced a newer model that has user adjustable regulation which these days seems to be the norm. Take the fore end off and have a look, or look at the muzzles as it will be apparent if some means of adjusting the divergence of the barrels is present.

Both my express rifles have factory fixed barrels. It's not a problem with the SxS Chapuis as that seems to have parallel barrels and seems to shoot well with anything you load in it, but it would be nice to be able to adjust the O/U Unifrance.

 

[Jagdmatch]

I am still trying to work out my Browning CCS in 9.3x74r. I can adjust the convergence using a differ t size ring on the top barrel but I like the idea of the potential longer range of the lower barrel. I am reloading again using N140 with reasonable results using factory bullets but not having much luck with cast bullets at the moment. I have a vortex strike Eagle on it at the moment which I quite like. Fitting the mounts was a very long job

 

[8x57]

I am still trying to work out my Browning CCS in 9.3x74r. I can adjust the convergence using a differ t size ring on the top barrel but I like the idea of the potential longer range of the lower barrel. I am reloading again using N140 with reasonable results using factory bullets but not having much luck with cast bullets at the moment. I have a vortex strike Eagle on it at the moment which I quite like. Fitting the mounts was a very long job

What was the problem with fitting the mounts Jagdmatch?

I first fell in love with double rifles when visiting the Browning factory on a trip organised by Tony Kennedy Guns of Launceston back in the early 80s. There were racks and racks of Browning express rifles in .30-06 on the factory floor. I promised myself that I would have a Browning express rifle one day. Well I never got my Browning but I am happy with the rifles that I do have.
P.S. Those rifles were the old models before the adjustable ring system. A great shame that Browning don't list their express rifles in the catalogue these days.