EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

[Frank Homes]

Yes, but I don't go spraying it about or injecting it into the local wildlife.
Except slugs, I do use beer traps.

But i dare say you drink it.

 

[gerarddwatts]

What on earth does that have to do with an impending ban on lead, and how best to manage it to least disadvantage?

 

[Heym SR20]

Well I think the only answer for those who doubt the science, is that they volunteer to contribute to the science.

1) Go to the Doctor and have a full medical and get your blood tested for heavy metals in particular lead.

2) then have a delicious diet of lead shot venison, but make it is shot with fragmenting bullets and make burgers out of the blood shot meat. Of course there is nothing wrong with the lead fragments in there and it is ready minced.

3) For added flavourings and crunch add lead powder to your meals.

4) and every six months have the lead levels in your blood checked.

Given that you believe the science is clearly wrong you will be perfectly fine. You might ask the doctor’s advice first though

 

[Rewulf]

so I have a fair bit of knowledge when it come to the non toxic projectile department

Not doubting it for a moment , but that's not what I was questioning.
Is a copper non toxic bullet as efficient as a lead cored one ?
At this moment in time, the answer has to be no, you could take 10000 deer of all species with non toxic, and be happy with the kills, but the science says they are not as efficient , expansion wise or ballistically.
That was all I was trying to say.

 

[Rewulf]

delicious diet of lead shot venison, but make it is shot with fragmenting bullets and make burgers out of the blood shot meat. Of course there is nothing wrong with the lead fragments in there and it is ready minced

It's a good job nobody does that already then ?!

 

[Dunwaters]

But i dare say you drink it.

I do, and thanks to your helpful post I now realise that the reason for my poor health on Saturday morning was the Friday night beers.
Fortunately the pre match ciders sorted me out.
I‘m trying to build up immunity so I’ll repeat the dosage tonight.

 

[Alantoo]

At this moment in time, the answer has to be no, you could take 10000 deer of all species with non toxic, and be happy with the kills, but the science says they are not as efficient , expansion wise or ballistically.

No it doesn't. Look at some of the comparative ballistic gel tests which show the greater degree of energy dump by mono metal lead free.

Shooting deer at UK stalking ranges the science does show them to be better...terminal ballistically wise it is just a different killing model and I would say significantly more efficient due to less wasted meat which has to discarded.

Empirically I have not noticed any difference of knock down performance between lead free or lead core, but then the science says lead free have the added advantage of removing the hazard of lead bullet contamination entering the human food chain or that of the carrion eaters. The 99% retention mono metal expanding, as opposed to fragmenting/frangible lead free, also remove the hazard of metal particle contamination.

Alan

 

[CarlW]

those who doubt the science

Doubt the science or doubt your particular brand of drivel? They are two very different things.

The problem with poor science (such as your own) is that it undermines the genuinely decent points made by those offering grown-up sensible science. For instance, I would admit that I am - let's say - predisposed to disbelieve any link between lead-shot game and poor health. However, some of @Sharpie's points on lead met their mark with me. But then, along you come with your "my-mate's-got-leukaemia-and he-likes-partridge" nonsense and I immediately recoil from the stench of the bullsh1t. The lead-is-bad argument goes straight back in the bin.

If this 'voluntary ban' were rooted in real science, and were based on a proper societal evaluation of relative harms, then it would stand a fighting chance of succeeding. However, it isn't: it is politics masquerading as science (with a bit of real science thrown in to lend it authenticity). Ordinary shooters see through that; they resist it; and the exercise will fail. And lead will be banned anyway, because BASC (in direct conflict with their own members) opened the door to that ban.

Now, tell my again about your cousin Mike, who once licked a Turkey and now brays like a donkey. In the interests of science, of course...

 

[CarlW]

Empirically I have not noticed any difference of knock down performance between lead free or lead core

I have.

As we have discussed before, and although it doesn't support my resistance, copper bullets (TSX) absolutely knock the snot out of dangerous game. If I could get that same performance on soft-skinned game at a little bit of range, I would switch tomorrow. Not because there is anything wrong with lead (which is delicious), but because I have been offered a better bullet.

Honestly, I do think that day might come. However, we ain't there yet (for some of us).

 

[Apthorpe]

Lead compounds are more toxic as they are more easily absorbed, but there is plenty of evidence that lead is harmful if ingested.

Why would ingesting lead fragments from a rifle bullet, or lead shot be any different to taking in lead from other sources?

Your previous sentence answers your question.
The two key differences between lead ammunition and other sources of exposure are:

1. Lead ammunition is a source of exposure to the metal. All other sources involve taking in lead compounds - a far more toxic type of exposure. I know that you know the difference, so I'm left with the impression that you're not trying to be objective about it.

2. The other routes of exposure have been directly linked in proper research to actual illness, poisoning or negative health outcomes in people. That is not the case for human consumption of lead shot game.

Sweet Jesus but some of you guys would try the patience of a saint, you ask for the scientific evidence, wont read it when its posted, then carry on blithely spouting the same tripe regardless.
At least have the courtesy to acknowledge posts responding to your demands for evidence with a polite “ thank you” , it wont hurt.
So since you can’t be arsed with the long winded, erudite and difficult to read scientific explanations, here’s short and not very scientific explanation of why people wont let us continue to broadcast a toxic heavy metal into the environment and the food chain.
They believe its environmentally unsound and unnecessary.

Its that simple.

"Believe". You're right. It is that simple. They believe it. They have not been able (thus far) to prove harm to any scientifically acceptable level of confidence. They are a very small clique of headbanger propagandists given entirely disproportionate publicity.
Of course, they will get their way, not least because of the number of "useful idiots" among shooters who seem determined to facilitate the end of shooting, if not for themselves, then for others.

 

[Alantoo]

I have.

As we have discussed before, and although it doesn't support my resistance, copper bullets (TSX) absolutely knock the snot out of dangerous game. If I could get that same performance on soft-skinned game at a little bit of range, I would switch tomorrow. Not because there is anything wrong with lead (which is delicious) but because I have been offered a better bullet.

Honestly, I do think that day might come. However, we ain't there yet (for some of us).

Delicious hmmm...an apocryphal precedent....One of the reasons (apart from actually being substituted by the Bisley boy) that Queen Elizabeth 1 went bald was attributed to the court habit of grating lead on the food as a condiment....allegedly.

What do you call "a little bit of range"?

The "better bullet" for my shooting was the reason I started looking at Barnes 6 or 7 years ago.

There are different lead free designs around which purport to expand at lower velocities and greater range...but I have few places over 100 yards to shoot on my local permissions and only one over 200 yards down in Sussex. But that latter is just clear line of sight with safe backdrop rather than anywhere the deer or boar are likely to be foregathered. So I am lucky/unlucky that most lead free offerings will work for me.

Alan

 

[CarlW]

Delicious hmmm...an apocryphal precedent....One of the reasons (apart from actually being substituted by the Bisley boy) that Queen Elizabeth 1 went bald was attributed to the court habit of grating lead on the food as a condiment....allegedly.

What do you call "a little bit of range"?

The "better bullet" for my shooting was the reason I started looking at Barnes 6 or 7 years ago.

There are different lead free designs around which purport to expand at lower velocities and greater range...but I have few places over 100 yards to shoot on my local permissions and only one over 200 yards down in Sussex. But that latter is just clear line of sight with safe backdrop rather than anywhere the deer or boar are likely to be foregathered. So I am lucky/unlucky that most lead free offerings will work for me.

Alan

Lizzie I is my favourite monarch. Proper bad-ass lady. Nice to hear she was also a woman of taste.

I never seek to shoot at range, and I am no sniper. However, modern Scottish clear-fells get larger and larger every year. Hundred of acres of un-stalkable pick-up-sticks. I want a .30 cal bullet to kill with certainty at 400-metres-plus. A 150gn Nosler Accubond or Ballistic Tip will do so (and much more) without even breaking a sweat.

It doesn't help that I have a political aversion to copper; however, I do keep an eye on what you fan-boys are up to (you in particular, because you experiment quite a bit) in the hope that you will stumble across something interesting.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The OP is about the proposed EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles. The following reports are relevant to the proposals:

Homepage - ECHA

echa.europa.eu

Homepage - ECHA

echa.europa.eu

It would be interesting to hear some views on the above reports - there is lots of science and also lots of possible exceptions/derogations.

 

[Alantoo]

Lizzie I is my favourite monarch. Proper bad-ass lady. Nice to hear she was also a woman of taste.

You may know about the legend of the Bisley boy then. Which is the real reason that Elizabeth was such a wise, clever, successful and bad-ass monarch. .... Because she was really a he all along! Hence no offspring or marriages and white lead makeup to cover up the 5 o’clock shadow.

We went to a friend’s mum’s hundredth birthday celebration in Over Court, which is the house where the Rev. Thomas Keble discovered the nine year old Elizabeth’s body walled up in stone coffin. In a past life it was one of Henry VIII’s hunting lodges. And Elizabeth was sent down to evade the plague in London but succumbed none the less.

Alan

 

[CarlW]

You may know about the legend of the Bisley boy then. Which is the real reason that Elizabeth was such a wise, clever, successful and bad-ass monarch. .... Because she was really a he all along! Hence no offspring or marriages and white lead makeup to cover up the 5 o’clock shado

We went to a friend’s hundredth birthday celebration in Over Court the house where the Rev. Thoma Keble discovered the nine year old Elizabeth’s body walled up in stone coffin. In a past life it was one of Henry VIII’s hunting lodges. And Elizabeth was sent down to evade the plague in London but succumbed none the less.

Alan

Lies, all lies. I have not been in love with a boy my whole life...

 

[Alantoo]

Lies, all lies. I have not been in love with a boy my whole life...

You and the Earl Dudley. Good company?

Alan

 

[Liveonce]

A bit of quick reading suggests there is a ‘safe level’ of mercury intake. That seems surprising as I’ve always thought of mercury as more and not less toxic than lead which has the oft cited ‘no safe limit’.

It also appears the case that the public don’t seem to care enough about eating mercury (and nor do supermarket chains) for it to have an effect on the market for tuna; which continues to fish the see clear of them.

Mercury was, is? Used in dental fillings for many years.

 

[CarlW]

You and the Earl Dudley. Good company?

Alan

I wonder whether Dudley ever actually made it all the way with her. She always claimed he didn't.

Bram Stoker wrote good fiction but he should not have libelled our Queen...

 

[Dunwaters]

Your previous sentence answers your question.
The two key differences between lead ammunition and other sources of exposure are:

1. Lead ammunition is a source of exposure to the metal. All other sources involve taking in lead compounds - a far more toxic type of exposure. I know that you know the difference, so I'm left with the impression that you're not trying to be objective about it.

2. The other routes of exposure have been directly linked in proper research to actual illness, poisoning or negative health outcomes in people. That is not the case for human consumption of lead shot game.



"Believe". You're right. It is that simple. They believe it. They have not been able (thus far) to prove harm to any scientifically acceptable level of confidence. They are a very small clique of headbanger propagandists given entirely disproportionate publicity.
Of course, they will get their way, not least because of the number of "useful idiots" among shooters who seem determined to facilitate the end of shooting, if not for themselves, then for others.

What more can I say?
I’ll take what comfort I can from your grudging surrender, regardless of the evidence, scientific or otherwise lead has had its day.

 

[CarlW]

Mercury was, is? Used in dental fillings for many years.

And, rather poetically for this thread, as a damper in some plumb bobs...