Game dealer not accepting lead shot carcasses

[Brave Echo Niner]

Surely 'copper' is a sufficiently good descriptor? One doesn't need to call it 'copper which is relatively less toxic than lead' or 'copper please don't ban shooting'. It is just 'copper'. There's enough Stockholm-syndrome shooters already, without us displaying the same simpering insecurity in the labelling of our bullets.

Carl 'mildly-toxic in-defence-of-shooting' Williams

I guess the simple issue with that would be that you get bullet designs such as the Norma EvoStrike where it isn't a copper bullet and contains no copper, hence to simplify things they have grouped these together into 'non-lead' or 'non-toxic' depending on the manufacturer you choose to look at.
As others have stated it is just a clear distinction on the box that people can clearly identify it does not contain lead in the bullet.

Ben

 

[CarlW]

I guess the simple issue with that would be that you get bullet designs such as the Norma EvoStrike where it isn't a copper bullet and contains no copper, hence to simplify things they have grouped these together into 'non-lead' or 'non-toxic' depending on the manufacturer you choose to look at.
As others have stated it is just a clear distinction on the box that people can clearly identify it does not contain lead in the bullet.

Ben

Non-lead is perfectly correct. Non-toxic is not.

 

[mad baja]

Is it confirmed that there will be a lead ban coming?

 

[StephenToast]

Is it confirmed that there will be a lead ban coming?

No. There is a two year investigation/enquiry into the use of lead ammunition and a lot of gamedealers have said they won't accept stuff shot with lead ammunition.

Everything else is paranoia.

 

[mad baja]

No. There is a two year investigation/enquiry into the use of lead ammunition and a lot of gamedealers have said they won't accept stuff shot with lead ammunition.

Everything else is paranoia.

Cheers for the clear up

 

[nick.308]

just a thought but why dont we just use FMJ bullets. The lead is unlikely to get into the meat and now were saying a few runners is acceptable? I am happy to start and use lead free I just think FMJ could help. It would be interesting to see if any lead trace was left behind.
If anyone thinks thats ridiculous then just watch this ()
the great Australian buffalo hunt. This guy shot thousands of water buffalo with FMJ.

 

[Selous]

I

just a thought but why dont we just use FMJ bullets. The lead is unlikely to get into the meat and now were saying a few runners is acceptable? I am happy to start and use lead free I just think FMJ could help. It would be interesting to see if any lead trace was left behind.
If anyone thinks thats ridiculous then just watch this ()
the great Australian buffalo hunt. This guy shot thousands of water buffalo with FMJ.

Errrrr .... how about the law says we can’t use FMJ

SCHEDULE 2Prohibited firearms and ammunition​

Firearms
1Any smooth-bore gun.
2Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds).
3Any air gun, air rifle or air pistol.
​

Ammunition
4Any cartridge for use in a smooth-bore gun.
5Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.​

 

[CarlW]

I

Errrrr .... how about the law says we can’t use FMJ

SCHEDULE 2Prohibited firearms and ammunition​

Firearms​

1Any smooth-bore gun.​

2Any rifle having a calibre of less than .240 inches or a muzzle energy of less than 2,305 joules (1,700 foot pounds).​

3Any air gun, air rifle or air pistol.​

​

Ammunition​

4Any cartridge for use in a smooth-bore gun.​

5Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet.​

I don't think that @nick.308 is suggesting that anyone breaks the law. Presumably he is suggesting that, if the law is changed to reflect the current debate, that it authorise FMJs as part of the amendment.

Whether or not that is a good idea, I don't know: I always file or snip the tips of FMJs before using them to shoot warthogs so they no longer really qualify as FMJs.

 

[Selous]

I don't think that @nick.308 is suggesting that anyone breaks the law. Presumably he is suggesting that, if the law is changed to reflect the current debate, that it authorise FMJs as part of the amendment.

Whether or not that is a good idea, I don't know: I always file or snip the tips of FMJs before using them to shoot warthogs so they no longer really qualify as FMJs.

To be honest I was a bit confused by his post for two reasons as FMJ are clearly illegal and as you say with your warthog ammo, snipping off or modifying the points just turns them into a soft point. Also I don’t think anyone is saying that runners are now more acceptable than they were before? Perhaps @nick.308 could clarify.
the only thing I could see is if a design like the Woodleigh hydro could act in a similar manner to a soft in causing greater cavitation but not shed mass? @CarlW Have you any experience with the Hydros and would this potentially work?? Obviously they are not aerodynamic in any way and would carry lots of energy through small deer so would cause other issues

 

[CarlW]

To be honest I was a bit confused by his post for two reasons as FMJ are clearly illegal and as you say with your warthog ammo, snipping off or modifying the points just turns them into a soft point. Also I don’t think anyone is saying that runners are now more acceptable than they were before? Perhaps @nick.308 could clarify.
the only thing I could see is if a design like the Woodleigh hydro could act in a similar manner to a soft in causing greater cavitation but not shed mass? @CarlW Have you any experience with the Hydros and would this potentially work?? Obviously they are not aerodynamic in any way and would carry lots of energy through small deer so would cause other issues

I haven't used the Woodleigh Hydros but a number of our clients swear by them. They kill big game emphatically. As do Barnes TSX: they absolutely knock the snot out of buffalo.

The problem with my own copper / non-lead experience is that it is all at short range, with large-ish calibres, on very heavy game. It therefore translates poorly to the British context.

As an aside, and I have no science to back this fear up, but I would be too scared to shoot a thin-skinned dangerous animal (a cat) with a Barnes or similar.

 

[StephenToast]

As an aside, and I have no science to back this fear up, but I would be too scared to shoot a thin-skinned dangerous animal (a cat) with a Barnes or similar.

I know it's a bit mercenary but could you try it on something thin- skinned and not so dangerous? Roe deer?

I don't know anything about these bullets but presumably (from google) they don't rely on expansion to kill but the pressure bubble or whatever so my guess is the thin skin/thick skin thing isn't important in achieving clean kills?

 

[Selous]

I think the hydros are an interesting design indeed, but a definite leap of faith when swapping them for a true expanding bullet of any construction. What struck me when talking to my PH and reading posts by many on African hunting is the disparity between bullet selections. Africa almost exclusively seeming heavy for calibre regardless of quarry (possibly except GS Custom in this) but UK goes light for calibre with monometal, even for animals of similar construction which tend to drop deer on the spot quite regularly. Now I appreciate that with larger animals this is clearly a good thing but for lighter PG I don’t see why the performance would be necessarily different. Is the tolerance of runners in Africa greater than in the UK but the range of game to be encountered wider, so in essence upsizing in preparation for larger animals but still shooting smaller ones or is the construction of an impala massively different to a fallow deer?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I know it's a bit mercenary but could you try it on something thin- skinned and not so dangerous? Roe deer?

I don't know anything about these bullets but presumably (from google) they don't rely on expansion to kill but the pressure bubble or whatever so my guess is the thin skin/thick skin thing isn't important in achieving clean kills?

Christ am I the only one who’s shot tons and I mean tons of thin skinned game with Barnes bullets ?

anyone would think the world has come to an end

 

[StephenToast]

Christ am I the only one who’s shot tons and I mean tons of thin skinned game with Barnes bullets ?

anyone would think the world has come to an end

No. You're not alone I have shot a few hundred with RWS HIT in .30-06. Works a treat.

I had never heard of Woodleigh Hydros before and it seems like they work differently to the standard bullets I have used in that they don't expand.

 

[StephenToast]

I think the hydros are an interesting design indeed, but a definite leap of faith when swapping them for a true expanding bullet of any construction. What struck me when talking to my PH and reading posts by many on African hunting is the disparity between bullet selections. Africa almost exclusively seeming heavy for calibre regardless of quarry (possibly except GS Custom in this) but UK goes light for calibre with monometal, even for animals of similar construction which tend to drop deer on the spot quite regularly. Now I appreciate that with larger animals this is clearly a good thing but for lighter PG I don’t see why the performance would be necessarily different. Is the tolerance of runners in Africa greater than in the UK but the range of game to be encountered wider, so in essence upsizing in preparation for larger animals but still shooting smaller ones or is the construction of an impala massively different to a fallow deer?

I use 165gr in my .30-06. That's not particularly light for calibre is it?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

No. You're not alone I have shot a few hundred with RWS HIT in .30-06. Works a treat.

I had never heard of Woodleigh Hydros before and it seems like they work differently to the standard bullets I have used in that they don't expand.

Thank god for that !

another one who’s not afraid to come out of the dark and into the light

 

[25 Sharps]

This lead ban has been on the card for donkeys years, that’s the reason I went into copper all those years ago!

but I’m beginning to run out of sympathy for those who paid no attention to the rumblings on the grapevine, who are now moaning.

those who thought forward like myself are and will carry on regardless hassle free!

remember there’s no smoke without fire

Right, so do you shoot with a target club or a lot of foxes and vermin?

How is it so hard for you to understand that copper is no issue for deer but it is an issue elsewhere? Even if the ban was restricted to food chain then the rest of us could carry on with lead for animals that never would enter the food chain, which is how it should have happened and fingers crossed still will.

You are literally not allowed to shoot copper at Bisley where my club shoots so how the hell was I not thinking ahead?

 

[CarlW]

I think the hydros are an interesting design indeed, but a definite leap of faith when swapping them for a true expanding bullet of any construction. What struck me when talking to my PH and reading posts by many on African hunting is the disparity between bullet selections. Africa almost exclusively seeming heavy for calibre regardless of quarry (possibly except GS Custom in this) but UK goes light for calibre with monometal, even for animals of similar construction which tend to drop deer on the spot quite regularly. Now I appreciate that with larger animals this is clearly a good thing but for lighter PG I don’t see why the performance would be necessarily different. Is the tolerance of runners in Africa greater than in the UK but the range of game to be encountered wider, so in essence upsizing in preparation for larger animals but still shooting smaller ones or is the construction of an impala massively different to a fallow deer?

The main difference is that the ranges are so short. In wild Africa, 90% of shots at thin-skinned game are in thick bush at around 70-80 metres (much closer for DG). Heavy-for-calibre bullets push aside any jesse on their way to meet bambi. They expand because the short range keeps them well within the expansion envelope of the bullet.

In fenced Africa, for instance in South Africa on open ground, ranges can get longer - say 250 metres - but that is still relatively short range. Also, in that context, you are essentially shooting farm stock or park deer in a paddock (albeit a big one). There is therefore only so far that the shot animal can run. A team of African trackers also makes follow-up in any of the above contexts a lot less of a headache.

Incidentally, if we take .375 H&H as an example, a number of PHs suggest dropping Barnes weights from 300gn to 270gn to add a bit of 'zing' to the kill.

Personally (and I am no pro: just a f'kwit with a gun and a big playground), I prefer to stay at 300gn, simply because the elephant on our ground are so aggressive and one often bangs into them when walking around.

 

[CarlW]

I know it's a bit mercenary but could you try it on something thin- skinned and not so dangerous? Roe deer?

I don't know anything about these bullets but presumably (from google) they don't rely on expansion to kill but the pressure bubble or whatever so my guess is the thin skin/thick skin thing isn't important in achieving clean kills?

I think @bowji john is doing just that.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Right, so do you shoot with a target club or a lot of foxes and vermin?

How is it so hard for you to understand that copper is no issue for deer but it is an issue elsewhere? Even if the ban was restricted to food chain then the rest of us could carry on with lead for animals that never would enter the food chain, which is how it should have happened and fingers crossed still will.

You are literally not allowed to shoot copper at Bisley where my club shoots so how the hell was I not thinking ahead?

I shoot paper to check zero that’s it!

cant see the point in wasting perfectly good components killing paper can’t eat that!

yes I kill foxes and guess what I use ???

copper!