Copper kills what calibres

[David78b]

Hi when we all change to copper ammunition what calibres do you all think will be killed off in rifle and shotgun. I am just interested in everyone's thoughts.

 

[Malxwal]

In shotgun, lead free will pretty much kill off high bird shooting. However, this assumes high bird shoots make putting the birds through the game stealers a priority,, and that is not really a major factor in profit margins.

 

[YoungGun]

In shotgun, lead free will pretty much kill off high bird shooting. However, this assumes high bird shoots make putting the birds through the game stealers a priority,, and that is not really a major factor in profit margins.

Price out of the question, but would bismuth or tungsten not do the job?

 

[Malxwal]

Price out of the question, but would bismuth or tungsten not do the job?

I suppose, if you factor it in to the price of a day at high birds, the added cost is in the region of 10% ? I've not tried those alternatives, so can't comment on the functionality. But when you consider that those who regularly shoot high birds have considerable disposable income, it may just be that bismuth etc becomes the norm.

 

[Jamouk]

Knowing this is coming... are ammunition manufacturers not falling over themselves and spending a fortune on R&d to be the first to come up with a viable alternative ?

 

[Sharpie]

Currently only 12 and 20 bore shotguns have much if any choice in none toxic loads. I can't see that changing anytime soon. Forget Tungsten. Extremely expensive but apparently even more effective than lead, for those who can afford it. Some can, and are willing to.

If you don't want to, or cannot, use steel then Bismuth is the only real choice. It currently seems to cost about three times much as lead used with fibre wads. Steel doesn't cost much more, when used with "biodegradeable" plastic wads.

FWIW, Bismuth metal is in very limited supply, worldwide only 19,000 tons was refined in 2019. Price then was barely covering cost of production, for various geopolitical reasons. There is only one bismuth mine operating in the world. The vast majority is produced from tiny quantities extracted when refining other metals.

https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2020/mcs2020-bismuth.pdf

Just Cartridges prices:

Gamebore Impact Tungsten Matrix 12Ga fibre wad 32gms no.5 £694/250

Gamebore Bismuth 12g fibre wad 32gms No 5 £347/250.

Gamebore Silver Steel Bio Wad 12Ga 32gms no.4 £144/250

Hull High Pheasant Extreme, lead, fibre wad 12Ga 36gms no.5 £127/250


And for the wildfowlers, with a suitable gun, there is stuff like:

Gamebore Mammoth Magnum Steel plastic wad 12Ga 42gms of 3, 1 or BB. £98.50/250

FWIW, London Metal Exchange current prices:

Lead £1409/tonne.

Zinc £2,005/tonne.

Copper £6360/tonne.

Tin £19,852/tonne

As to discussion of lead-free hunting rifle projectiles and possible compatibility issues with existing rifles, effectiveness, accuracy etc., there has been any amount of discussion here, ongoing, pointless going over old ground. Do your own homework.

Target sports are not necessarily the focus of the drive against lead.

 

[Dunwaters]

In shotgun, lead free will pretty much kill off high bird shooting. However, this assumes high bird shoots make putting the birds through the game stealers a priority,, and that is not really a major factor in profit margins.

I don't think so, steel definitely would need us to readjust our ranges but what about TSS or Bismuth?
Ultimately its going to come down to what you’re using, which will come down to what you can afford, so we’ll have the steel shot plebs staring with longing at all those birds sailing by at 35 yds, the bismuth shower only engaging birds between 37 and 46 yds and the TSS toffs disdaining anything under 50 yds....and all sharing the same peg.

 

[Malxwal]

I don't think so, steel definitely would need us to readjust our ranges but what about TSS or Bismuth?
Ultimately its going to come down to what you’re using, which will come down to what you can afford, so we’ll have the steel shot plebs staring with longing at all those birds sailing by at 35 yds, the bismuth shower only engaging birds between 37 and 46 yds and the TSS toffs disdaining anything under 50 yds....and all sharing the same peg.

Pretty much, as I put in my second post. Those who can afford the four figure days at high birds will likely afford the increase in cost of the ammo required.

 

[Turkish]

Will this not see a resurgence of home loading, for those that can't find commercially available lead free alternative factory?

I'm talking full bore rifle, not shotgun.

 

[Sharpie]

Tungsten shot has had a following, for those who can easily afford it, long before the lead controversy, for alleged superior performance over lead, and compatibility with all guns.

Bismuth likewise, apparently shoots pretty much identically to lead. Also all-gun compatible. If your gun can't take steel, or you want to keep the performance of lead, for wetlands, duck etc. then I think it will continue to be the way to go.

Steel is trickier, but can apparently have some advantages in e.g. patterning and shot count. UK manufacturers say they are being held back by over-conservative CIP specifications, but there is talk of some revisions being made to allow improved performance in suitably proofed guns. Time will tell. It doesn't have to cost much more than lead.

High Bird pheasant shooting appears to be a peculiarly British pastime of relatively recent popularity.

 

[The Bear]

All of them, a lead ban will soon be seen as a great way of making all guns unaffordable to to shoot for the masses and see shooting fade into obscurity. Hunting with carcass value may be the first attack and the last resort. 22 rimfire shooters, air gunners, where will the catalyst for new entrants for shooting remain

 

[gixer1]

All of them, a lead ban will soon be seen as a great way of making all guns unaffordable to to shoot for the masses and see shooting fade into obscurity. Hunting with carcass value may be the first attack and the last resort. 22 rimfire shooters, air gunners, where will the catalyst for new entrants for shooting remain

I agree with this - anyone that thinks this will stop with changing to copper needs their head examined....this is the first step in making it so difficult to shoot that we will all give up.

You have to hand it to the anti’s as they have managed to get us infighting and introduced hoops that we have to jump through that will essentially kill off the field sports community while gaining public support to do so through ignorance.

regards,
Gixer

 

[Sharpie]

Will this not see a resurgence of home loading, for those that can't find commercially available lead free alternative factory?

I'm talking full bore rifle, not shotgun.

Factory rifle ammo exists in many varieties, and is not much more expensive than premium factory lead ammo.

If anything it is much more advanced in development than the high volume shotgun cartridges, it has been in use for many years already, successfully, and continues to evolve.

Endless discussion on here. It exists, works, and is available.

I saw a video by George Digweed at Gamebore's site, looking at how they make their lead stuff, less than a year ago, where they casually mentioned that they had seventeen million shotgun cartridges in stock, and aimed to try to keep it full. And were building a second warehouse to add another 21 million capacity.

ISTR that they can pour 25 tons of lead per day down their shot tower. Purely for their own requirements, they don't sell it to anyone else. Just one other manufacturer Locatelli in Italy make over 10,000 tonnes of the stuff per year. Other shot manufacturers also exist. Where does all that shot end up ? Mostly in the environment, I'm pretty sure.

I think that sporting rifle ammunition must be a tiny drop in the ocean by comparison, and the toxicity of little risk to your average consumer for whom venison is a rare treat, unlike some hunters and their families, for which there is plenty of evidence that it can be quite a bad thing. As well as to the birds that scavenge grallochs etc. Any Falconer knows this.

Locatelli srl-Company

www.locatellisnc.it

Gamebore do appear to be taking steel seriously, and have, uniquely developed their own Bio Wad. They also make their own Tungsten matrix shot. AFAIK all the other UK manufacturers are having to buy theirs in, from abroad. That, surely, will restrict their ability to progress development as quickly. I daresay they are active in trying to secure supplies of steel shot too, in anticipation, it mostly comes from China. Though we do have one UK manufacturer who has been making it for over 20 years. Also located in Hull.

Steel Shot Company- The Lead Free Alternative

The Steel Shot Company Ltd, based in Hull, England provides an environmentally friendly lead free product to the shot shell ammunition manufacturing industry.

steel-shot.com

But, hearing their statistics, turning their lead ship around to steel and other stuff, for the game shooters, is surely going to be a huge challenge. I expect that they will continue to supply lead to the clay target market, which is a big consumer, for as long as it is allowed to be used in controlled environments.

Components are also available for rifle reloaders. TBH the main saving of reloads over factory is because you get to reuse the cartridge cases. 'Twas always thus even with lead factory ammo. With the price of powder and primers nowadays, not to mention investment in the equipment, and load development, I think it is more of a pastime for most stalkers who aren't shooting deer by the hundred. And for those who are, who must be mostly selling it to game dealers, the cost of factory ammo. is minor compared to what they sell the carcasses for.

Though reloading is pretty much essential for high volume target shooters who can burn through rounds by the hundred on range days, and fine tune their loads for precision. They will probably be shooting lead bullets for a long time to come.

Otherwise reloading makes little sense for those who aren't shooting deer by the hundred. Just as reloading shotgun cartridges is a minor hobby nowadays, that makes little if any economic sense.

Well worth a view, this was just after the "voluntary" announcement a year ago. Things have progressed quite a bit already, since then.



FWIW, for the rarefied, seemingly uniquely British pastime of High Bird shooting, here's what a shoot can cost:

Shooting — Dawnay Estates

Enjoy the finest game shooting in North Yorkshire in stunning countryside, managed by experienced local keepers | 01723 866 600

www.dawnay.co.uk

High Bird 250 £12,000 per day (£1,500 per gun, 8 guns). Including a midmorning snack, and lunch.

So that's a potential bag of around 32 birds per gun. Lets say it takes them three shots to down one pheasant, that's 100 cartridges. £278 if using Tungsten. £139 for Bismuth. £51 for lead.

TBH, if I was rich enough to indulge in £1500, plus travel (maybe by helicopter) and accommodation and dining before and after, and hospitality, and tips, and a posh gun, if Tungsten really is the superior choice, I (or maybe whoever else was actually paying for my entertainment) wouldn't begrudge the cost. I also wouldn't want to appear to be a cheapskate, in such exalted company.

 

[David78b]

So what about rifle calibres how do you all think 22lr, 22hmr 22hornet etc will all stand up to change or will they disappear. Shotgun shooting will adapt same as the wildflowers have but will be more expensive for high bird shooting using bismuth, tungsten etc. Do you think semi auto shotguns will be used in game shoots then,will high bird shooters start to use semi auto with 3 1\2 chambers shooting steel then

 

[Mungo]

So you see it said a lot that non-lead will kill .22lr.

It's not clear to me that this is true. Surely most .22 shooting at game relies on CNS shots rather than chest shots - so expansion shouldn't matter. Even with chest shots, expansion with lead slugs is often very limited, especially with subsonics or at slightly longer ranges. Finally, even with no expansion at all, the size of a calibre sized .22 hole relative to the whole body for a rabbit is enormous - proportionally much bigger than the hole created by a soft point .308 in a red deer.

Could someone explain why the .22lr is at such risk?

 

[bowji john]

Depends upon whether the target shooting industry gets sucked into this ban

If it is, then precision shooting and the ammo it uses will struggle to survive

If it is granted a reprieve, then ammo like .22LR will continue in its current form

I fear that if forced to adopt alternative materials the alternative products might make competitive shooting pointless

 

[NickJ]

In shotgun, lead free will pretty much kill off high bird shooting. However, this assumes high bird shoots make putting the birds through the game stealers a priority,, and that is not really a major factor in profit margins.

I shot high birds last season with steel Eley Eco wad and 1/2 and 1/2 choke and it performed as well as lead to my surprise.

Obviously extreme high birds need full choke and I gather development is going into biodegradable cup wads (much like plastic) like the Eo Wads which should keep the pattern together longer and thus overcome the more open choke issue...fingers crossed.

 

[NickJ]

As for rifle calibres I guess there is two schools, first the .243 will become obsolete in Scotland unless they change the law (as they have mooted) to allow lighter than 100 grain bullets and secondly rare calibres where factory non lead is just not readily available.

 

[Roestalker39]

As for rifle calibres I guess there is two schools, first the .243 will become obsolete in Scotland unless they change the law (as they have mooted) to allow lighter than 100 grain bullets and secondly rare calibres where factory non lead is just not readily available.

I really hope they don’t change the law , the law was put there for “ animal welfare “ and “ best practice “ I’d hate for the goal posts to be moved for this

 

[Malxwal]

I really hope they don’t change the law , the law was put there for “ animal welfare “ and “ best practice “ I’d hate for the goal posts to be moved for this

If you read through the Scottish Deer Working Group recommendations that ScotGov almost wholly accepted,it's evident deer welfare is at the bottom of their list of priorities.