FAQ: Do I have an Open or Closed Certificate?

[Memphis]

This is the beauty of humanity.

One FEO may have a different view of two "identical" (Father and son) applicants and issue accordingly.

Two FEOs may take differing views on the same applicant, and likewise issue accordingly.

seems this is the only answer

 

[Stalker62]

Just trying to work it out is all and I agree to 2 different people but both persons no convictions or anything that would cause a problem on a ticket only difference is the Firearms officer but they was from the same department

WIth all the delays that everyone is currently undergoing - this may not be helpful (or welcome).

However, for future, it may be worth submitting both FACs at the same time and addressed to a named FEO (with whom you have previously made contact with) and asking for identical conditions.

I did this with a family member - notwithstanding they live in a difference Force area and had a different FLM/FEO.

 

[Stalker62]

seems this is the only answer

Nice change of emoji!

 

[25 Sharps]

Sounds to me as if the father has a 308 already for range use, asked for it to be conditioned for quarry shooting and nominated a piece of ground that isn't cleared for 308. Told no, which would be correct.

Meanwhile the son has a 270 and 308 already conditioned for shooting quarry, and his ticket is open, meaning he can shoot wherever he wants.

If you’re on an open ticket you do not need a piece of cleared land, a lot think you do but it is incorrect.

 

[Memphis]

Nice change of emoji!

It was temporary until I could find my companions pic lol

 

[Memphis]

If you’re on an open ticket you do not need a piece of cleared land, a lot think you do but it is incorrect.

Father's ticket there is in the "additional conditions may be added by the Chief Officer of Police" the first parts states all firearms and ammunition for target shooting while a member of (name of Club) but further down lists all firearms "except .308" for shooting vermin/fox/ground game and all legal quarry. so with these statements the .308 is not open?

 

[Memphis]

If you’re on an open ticket you do not need a piece of cleared land, a lot think you do but it is incorrect.

but you can be restricted ie not open if it does not state this shooting vermin/fox/ground game and all legal quarry with every firearm

 

[25 Sharps]

No actual fact is father had .308 on closed ticket for range use only son uses same range for his .270 closed ticket, applied for variation for .308 while on closed ticket. Father renewed ticket with land he already had all was opened except for .308. Father gets son permission on the land for his renewal as son's previous permissions where only up to .17, when son comes up for renewal 2 months later the different Firearms Officer gave open ticket on his .308 for quarry. Just trying to work it out is all and I agree to 2 different people but both persons no convictions or anything that would cause a problem on a ticket only difference is the Firearms officer but they was from the same department

but you can be restricted ie not open if it does not state this shooting vermin/fox/ground game and all legal quarry with every firearm

You seem confused on what the definition of an ‘open’ certificate is.

It is based on whether you have a territorial restriction on your certificate or not. So a closed certificate allows you to shoot a firearm conditioned for field use only on land cleared for the calibre you are shooting, an open certificate you can shoot whatever calibre you have conditioned for field use where you deem it safe.

This is separate to what rifles are actually conditioned for, so for example, up until recently I had several deer and fox rifles and an open certificate but my .308 was conditioned for target use with an HO approved club only. Therefore I could not shoot the .308 in the field, only with my club, that doesn’t mean I had a closed certificate it meant I didn’t have a quarry/field condition for that particular rifle.

 

[Foxyboy43]

You seem confused on what the definition of an ‘open’ certificate is.

It is based on whether you have a territorial restriction on your certificate or not. So a closed certificate allows you to shoot a firearm conditioned for field use only on land cleared for the calibre you are shooting, an open certificate you can shoot whatever calibre you have conditioned for field use where you deem it safe.

This is separate to what rifles are actually conditioned for, so for example, up until recently I had several deer and fox rifles and an open certificate but my .308 was conditioned for target use with an HO approved club only. Therefore I could not shoot the .308 in the field, only with my club, that doesn’t mean I had a closed certificate it meant I didn’t have a quarry/field condition for that particular rifle.

Indeed but doesn’t this thread illustrate how very stupid the open/closed/range only conditions actually are? For example the same FAC holder with a .308 conditioned for deer (and AOLQ) and a .308 for range only - unlikely I know but they could be identical rifles yet these stupid restrictions would still apply!
Then don’t ask me about moderators…….

 

[25 Sharps]

Indeed but doesn’t this thread illustrate how very stupid the open/closed/range only conditions actually are? For example the same FAC holder with a .308 conditioned for deer (and AOLQ) and a .308 for range only - unlikely I know but they could be identical rifles yet these stupid restrictions would still apply!
Then don’t ask me about moderators…….

Yes that would be a bit silly, however they can be more awkward about conditioning rifles for field use.

I previously had 4 rifles conditioned for deer, they point blank refused to add a deer condition for another deer capable calibre I already had for target so had to choose deer condition for 7.5x55 or .308 (pretty close ballistically) because ‘no-one in Wiltshire had more than 4 rifles conditioned for deer’. As you say very daft….

 

[25 Sharps]

Father's ticket there is in the "additional conditions may be added by the Chief Officer of Police" the first parts states all firearms and ammunition for target shooting while a member of (name of Club) but further down lists all firearms "except .308" for shooting vermin/fox/ground game and all legal quarry. so with these statements the .308 is not open?

They are quite unlikely to condition a .308 for fox/vermin/groundgame as it’s too big and power dial a cartridge. If you applied for a .308 stating those reasons you’d get refused.

I’m guessing all the firearms are smaller than .308?

PS are you part of this father and son duo??

Looking at your introduction it sounds like it and that you added a .308 at renewal?

new

Hi All only covered small deer up to yet thinking of moving to the bigger section so looking around at present as part of my pest/vermin control. Calibres I shoot are .22rf .17rf .22 magnum and ,223 cf if I do move on to the larger deer I will be looking for advice on a suitable calibre. I guess...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

 

[Memphis]

You seem confused on what the definition of an ‘open’ certificate is.

It is based on whether you have a territorial restriction on your certificate or not. So a closed certificate allows you to shoot a firearm conditioned for field use only on land cleared for the calibre you are shooting, an open certificate you can shoot whatever calibre you have conditioned for field use where you deem it safe.

This is separate to what rifles are actually conditioned for, so for example, up until recently I had several deer and fox rifles and an open certificate but my .308 was conditioned for target use with an HO approved club only. Therefore I could not shoot the .308 in the field, only with my club, that doesn’t mean I had a closed certificate it meant I didn’t have a quarry/field condition for that particular rifle.

25 Sharps
Thank you for that I understand what you are saying and it does explain it better

 

[Memphis]

They are quite unlikely to condition a .308 for fox/vermin/groundgame as it’s too big and power dial a cartridge. If you applied for a .308 stating those reasons you’d get refused.

I’m guessing all the firearms are smaller than .308?

PS are you part of this father and son duo??

Looking at your introduction it sounds like it and that you added a .308 at renewal?

new

Hi All only covered small deer up to yet thinking of moving to the bigger section so looking around at present as part of my pest/vermin control. Calibres I shoot are .22rf .17rf .22 magnum and ,223 cf if I do move on to the larger deer I will be looking for advice on a suitable calibre. I guess...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Not quite but know them well. the smaller firearms do include .223 and .243, and the .308 was already on a year before renewal, this was added for target with option to stalk on the fathers, the son has an open slot for the .308 and the .270 was on his ticket at time of renewal. it is just the fact that using exactly the same land for both the father having permission on said land for 5 years the son for 4 months and different Firearms Officers from the same office have given out different restrictions. I understand that the father has open ticket but a restriction on his .308 where as the son now has open ticket no restrictions. It just shows you how different the views of Firearms Officers are

 

[25 Sharps]

Not quite but know them well. the smaller firearms do include .223 and .243, and the .308 was already on a year before renewal, this was added for target with option to stalk on the fathers, the son has an open slot for the .308 and the .270 was on his ticket at time of renewal. it is just the fact that using exactly the same land for both the father having permission on said land for 5 years the son for 4 months and different Firearms Officers from the same office have given out different restrictions. I understand that the father has open ticket but a restriction on his .308 where as the son now has open ticket no restrictions. It just shows you how different the views of Firearms Officers are

Deer permission for both?

 

[Memphis]

Deer permission for both?

no looks like the fathers is down for Target only with his .308 when you read his licence, but the son's does say deer on his .243 .270 and his .308, as they say its not a problem as for now the father can use his .243 for what he needs, it was just how the only difference is the Firearms officer's

 

[Memphis]

Indeed but doesn’t this thread illustrate how very stupid the open/closed/range only conditions actually are? For example the same FAC holder with a .308 conditioned for deer (and AOLQ) and a .308 for range only - unlikely I know but they could be identical rifles yet these stupid restrictions would still apply!
Then don’t ask me about moderators…….

This is what I was trying to point out the only difference here is the Firearms Officer and they have both come from the same office, it just adds to any confusion,

 

[25 Sharps]

no looks like the fathers is down for Target only with his .308 when you read his licence, but the son's does say deer on his .243 .270 and his .308, as they say its not a problem as for now the father can use his .243 for what he needs, it was just how the only difference is the Firearms officer's

I was asking if they had both submitted permission to shoot deer on the piece of land with their renewal?

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

Mine says “The fire arms and ammunition shall be used for shooting any lawful quarry and for practicing ,zeroing in ranges or land over which the holder have lawful authority to shoot “.
That’s all calibers I have. Which is .22lr, .223 .308 and .375H &H

 

[billm]

As this comes up quite a bit here is the difference between a 'closed' ('more restrictive') certificate and an 'open' (or 'less restrictive') certificate.

Note that it is dependent on the conditions PER rifle. It is possible to have a certificate that is open for one rifle and closed for another.


1) Closed Certificate

The condition contains the text "land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police" or similar. The certificate holder needs to check with the police force applicable to the ground to see if the ground is cleared and if not arrange to have the ground cleared for the calibre in question.

An example 'closed' condition:

View attachment 5653


2) 'Open' or 'Less Restrictive' Certificate

The onus is solely upon the certificate holder to check that the ground is suitable for the calibre/scenario. They do not need to check with the police force that the ground is cleared.

An example 'open' condition:

View attachment 5652

Hi, my first senterfire rifle on my certificate and it says quote, The condition contains the text "land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police. But on the same certificate my .22lr and my 17hmr are to be used where I deside it is safe to use them
So I presume that is closed for the centerfire and open for the other two, which I don't mind.
When I applied for certificate I had to put down the name and addresses of farms I had permission on and would be using the rifle on, I put down the three farms I have per mission on, using shotgun .22 and the .17 for the last 20 years and I got my variation for .222 senterfire 2 weeks later, but dose that mean they have checked the land for .222 if not why ask me for the name of farms I would be using it on and then giving me my variation if the land has not been checked out. billm.

 

[MarkD123]

my first senterfire rifle on my certificate and it says quote, The condition contains the text "land deemed suitable by the Chief Officer of Police. But on the same certificate my .22lr and my 17hmr are to be used where I deside it is safe to use them

You have an ‘open’ condition on your rimmies.
You have a ‘closed’ condition on your centrefire. If your FEO has cleared your permissions for your centrefire then you’re ok to shoot on them with it. You can call your FEO to confirm that he has.