Andy seatrout
Well-Known Member
I’ll take a look tomorrow afternoon- I’ve had a couple of nice glasses of red….. and could get it wrong!
Non-firing ammunition issue???
- Thread starter Andy seatrout
- Start date
Might be a silly question but after you resize are you leaning the case again to remove all the way lube to ensure this is not contaminating the power and/or the primer?
Andy seatrout
Well-Known Member
No I’m not- as it indexes to the next station for powder….. it’s a progressive press…. I’m going to go easier on the case lube and less in the neck……and I’m using a wax lube now rather than the ‘wetter’ Lyman spray lube
Phil fox man
Well-Known Member
just a real wild card idea.have you spilled any primers and picked up a fired one in the mix ?.
look to me like a double strike like when you use a fired round for dry fireing.
look to me like a double strike like when you use a fired round for dry fireing.
phaedra
Well-Known Member
Case sizing/shoulder position can certainly cause problems.
I have a couple of 300 AAC rifles, the shoulder on some of the cases were over 10 thou" below Saami spec, this resulted in S&B and Magtech primers often needing to be struck twice.
Federal or CCI worked perfectly. No idea how they were that far back but the cases had been used with sub-sonic loads for a few years.
Loaded with a full load the shoulders moved forward and next firing the issue went away.
I then switched to brand new brass, I have 4 bags of PPU and 2 bags of Starline, those all measure under Saami mim (1.0748") around 1.065" and I started getting the same problem.
I formed a new case from a 223 case and fire formed it, my chamber measured 1.072", with my die fully down it came out at 1.069"
While those figures are both under Saami min I suspect it's the Hornady B350 comparator insert that's giving low readings.
I've loaded those with full loads to fire form and move the shoulder forward to where it should be.
I have a couple of 300 AAC rifles, the shoulder on some of the cases were over 10 thou" below Saami spec, this resulted in S&B and Magtech primers often needing to be struck twice.
Federal or CCI worked perfectly. No idea how they were that far back but the cases had been used with sub-sonic loads for a few years.
Loaded with a full load the shoulders moved forward and next firing the issue went away.
I then switched to brand new brass, I have 4 bags of PPU and 2 bags of Starline, those all measure under Saami mim (1.0748") around 1.065" and I started getting the same problem.
I formed a new case from a 223 case and fire formed it, my chamber measured 1.072", with my die fully down it came out at 1.069"
While those figures are both under Saami min I suspect it's the Hornady B350 comparator insert that's giving low readings.
I've loaded those with full loads to fire form and move the shoulder forward to where it should be.
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The failure on the primer has nothing to do with you pushing the shoulder back too far previously. Primers can get contaminated and fail to go off and can be less than perfectly constructed I the factory .
You should never handle primers with your fingers and never get oils or case lube etc onto them . Over use of sizing lube will definitely effect a primers strength or to go off at all . Keep your lube minimum! A tiny little bottle of case lube should last decades even shooting a few thousand a year . My little bottle is 20 years old now and it's only the volume of a small shot glass and tens of thousands of handloads must have been lubed
You should never handle primers with your fingers and never get oils or case lube etc onto them . Over use of sizing lube will definitely effect a primers strength or to go off at all . Keep your lube minimum! A tiny little bottle of case lube should last decades even shooting a few thousand a year . My little bottle is 20 years old now and it's only the volume of a small shot glass and tens of thousands of handloads must have been lubed
Sorry, I confused myself by looking at @Alantoo s photos instead of yours. So please disregard what I said. It does look as if Alantoo's primer failure (fizzle instead of proper detonation) was a rare occurrence.
There does seem to be something odd about the strike, in your original photo. Could it be that the primer was not fully seated ? If so, although the firing pin did indent it, it may not have managed to crush the primer disc against the anvil properly, the anvil needs to be seated against the base of the primer pocket for that to work reliably.
Are you loading fully progressively, i.e. resizing/old primer removal, prime on press (without primer pocket cleaning), powder, bullet seat etc ? E.g. the Lee Loadmaster press has a very finnicky primer seating method (on the upstroke). What press are you using ?
If so, it is possible that your primers may not be being consistently seated. When you pull the dud round check the powder charge, extract the primer cautiously (photograph both sides), then maybe try the smash test to see if the primer is still live..
I don't understand how you were setting up the resizing die using your "reference case" ? AFAIK those cases are simply for finding the lands by screwing in the pusher thing in the back. Then using that measurement to adjust your seating die for the jump that you desire. Not for setting up a resizing die.
Setting up a sizing die for correct headspace/shoulder bump is normally done using a fireformed case from your rifle as the reference for shoulder position, in conjunction with a shoulder/headspace comparator. Or the approximate trial and error method of course.
Your earlier problems with six out of thirty failing to fire suggested that you were doing something badly wrong at that time. Even in the unlikely chance that you had a seriously dodgy box of primers, to have 1 in 5 fail to fire seems improbable.
In summary, possibly incorrect primer seating and/or sizing die setup.
If you have a shoulder/headspace comparator, or know someone with one, an obvious check would be to compare the shoulder position of a case that did fire (so is now fireformed), with the one that didn't, so is still in the state that you resized it to.
BTW, are you following the proper misfire drill when you do experience one ?
I think this is correct, or at least received wisdom. I don't think that "tumble lubing" cases by e.g. swishing them about in a bag or tub with some liquid lube is a great idea, nevermind spraying them, unless it is subsequently cleaned off before primer seating, or loading powder. Supposedly it wouldn't take much to get into the primer pocket to degrade a primer, maybe not instantly, but after some time.
My simple routine, so far, is to just dry tumble the fired cases (primers still in), sufficiently to avoid getting contamination into the dies. 15 minutes maybe. Brush out inside necks. Anneal if necessary. Lube with fingers using waxy substance. Resize/deprime. Trim if necessary, scrape out primer pockets and if necessary poke any media out of the flash hole. This second more thorough tumble is the real cleaning operation and gets rid of the lube, could also be done with wet methods. Result: clean shiny fully prepped brass.
Then prime (hand primer), load powder, seat bullet. This of course is not the way a progressive press is usually operated.
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Have you tried recocking and firing a second time?
phaedra
Well-Known Member
Not sure if that was a reply to my post.
None of my cases or primers were contaminated.
Cases (after being sized and prepped) are SS Pin wet tumbled and spotless.
Primers are straight from box to tray to case using an RCBS Universal hand primer.
The 300AAC has a tiny shoulder area probably about 2mm. S&B and Magtech SRP have a harder cup and the extra head space allowed those cases to move forward when struck just enough to stop some of them them working first strike.
No problem at all with Federal or CCI SRP, and not a fault with the rifle as they did the same with both rifles of different makes and actions (bolt and a single shot).
After fire forming the cases with full loads and the shoulders being pushed forward to where they should be they now work perfectly.
I have no idea how the shoulders were that far back as my die certainly can't bump them that far back.
On a fired case the shoulder median point is at 1.072", even with the die set touching + 1/8 extra turn it can't move them back any further than 1.069"
Any chance you could have been using the wrong case holder which enabled the cases to be pushed into the die further?
Alan
Andy seatrout
Well-Known Member
No….. I didn’t …. I think I’ll check the primers a Ed suggested- see if they’re a dodgy batch ( bought them last spring) and I’ll maybe ease off the sizing die a bit more….
In addition; less lube and making sure I keep the primers contaminate free. I have some new primers from B&N so maybe I’ll change out and see if it’s the CCI ones…..
@Andy seatrout are you priming off the press?
There is a chance that when seating the primer anvil failed to crush against the primer pocket wall, thus leaving it 'unset' although seated flush with the top of the pocket.
I have a press priming setup but favour a hand primer when primer pocket fit is very tight.
There is a chance that when seating the primer anvil failed to crush against the primer pocket wall, thus leaving it 'unset' although seated flush with the top of the pocket.
I have a press priming setup but favour a hand primer when primer pocket fit is very tight.
phaedra
Well-Known Member
No, I only have the one #4 shell holder that fits those cases.
Others are #2 for 308 & 6.5 and a #11 for the 44.
These are converted Lake City brass I bought in the USA when I got my Advanced Armaments single shot Handi Rifle back in 2013.
I was going through the new bags of PPU and Starline double checking them and found one PPU that measured 1.057"
I'd been running tests with the Lake City cases and found anything under about 1.060" had problems with those primers, having put the full loads through them they then worked OK.
Harry mac
Well-Known Member
My firstthought, once I'd seen the "spent" primer in the pic was that he's somehow managed to "prime" the case with a previously fired primer. Hence, huge firing pin indentation, burnt primer composition, but "bullet no bangy".
PeterH
Well-Known Member
Good man
I too was confused by that. Until I re-read carefully and realised that was a different 'photo, from @Alantoo , showing what looks like a faulty primer that fizzled. I'm pretty sure that Alantoo made his cartridges well, and that his 'photo showed a (rare) faulty primer.
We still know nothing more about @Andy seatrout s primer (or the 5 out of 30 that didn't go bang in his previous experiments).. If those have been preserved and could be photographed for us to examine, we might have something to discuss.
Meanwhile I'm wildly guessing that poor primer seating might be the root cause. And a dodgy box of primers the least likely.
Likewise what was his drill when the misfires occurred ? And how is he seating his primers, in his progressive press ?
These sorts of posts are interesting to me, but since I have never experienced anything like this myself, other than on a couple of occasions shooting ancient military surplus .303 Berdan primed stuff, which always did fire after a second attempt (just re-cock the Enfield No.4 by pulling back on the cocking piece, bolt kept closed throughout).
If it didn't fire on second strike (never happened to me but sometimes did to others), raise hand, RCO stepped over to observe and if necessary advise, rifle kept pointing downrange safely, wait at least 30 seconds before cautiously ejecting round.
Same principles should apply to sporting rifle usage, particularly if you are using a turnbolt that can't be re-cocked without opening the bolt. Other mechanisms are available to deal with this very rare (but not in the OP's case), scenario. A Sako 75 in fit condition (firing pin, spring, firing pin hole, clean inside, lightly lubricated, no trigger sear drag from misaligned safety catch, improperly adjusted trigger etc.) shouldn't have a problem firing a properly made reload, even with OTT headspace.
Until we have further "post mortem" info from the OP, including how he is going about making his rounds on his progressive press, we are all just speculating. But to be frank, if a reloader can't make ammunition that goes bang every time, there is something wrong with what they are doing. This is pretty fundamental, and may suggest that other aspects of their reloading procedure are also not as tight as they should be.
Andy seatrout
Well-Known Member
Replying to Sharpie; originally the high level of misfires was probably too much headspace- I thought I’d cured it by backing off the full length sizing die, but 1 in 50 failed…. No fizz, no pop, just a click….
I had no issues seating primers in ‘new case’ reloading - the Hornady LnL progressive press uses a ram to push them up into the case on the down stroke…..
Based on the comments here I think;
1) need to maybe back off the seating due another 2/1000
2) reduce the amount of case lube I use/ and not use the Lyman spray one- as I think some got into the inside/ base of the case
3) exercise good primer ‘hygiene’ I admit some got spilled on the carpet etc….
4) ( and least likely) faulty CCI primer …..
I’ve yet to take the round apart ( family life and busy) but with the kids and wife going away for a few days as it’s half term I’ll have three evenings to investigate, do some reloading and try and cure it….
I’ll take a couple of photos if there’s anything to see….
I had no issues seating primers in ‘new case’ reloading - the Hornady LnL progressive press uses a ram to push them up into the case on the down stroke…..
Based on the comments here I think;
1) need to maybe back off the seating due another 2/1000
2) reduce the amount of case lube I use/ and not use the Lyman spray one- as I think some got into the inside/ base of the case
3) exercise good primer ‘hygiene’ I admit some got spilled on the carpet etc….
4) ( and least likely) faulty CCI primer …..
I’ve yet to take the round apart ( family life and busy) but with the kids and wife going away for a few days as it’s half term I’ll have three evenings to investigate, do some reloading and try and cure it….
I’ll take a couple of photos if there’s anything to see….
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