Has the 6mm Creedmoor much following in the UK, or is everybody just going to the 6.5CM?

[Sakoodin1]

This is due to be picked up next week by myself. A 1-7” twist 26” sassen varmint barrel in .243, I went with the .243 because I have all the brass and dies and because I am a Redding type s snob I didn’t want to wait 6 months on new dies. We throated the barrel out for the 108grn hornady eldm’s to get maximum seating depth for that bullet. Looking forward to collecting it from Dave.

 

[Jax]

This is due to be picked up next week by myself. A 1-7” twist 26” sassen varmint barrel in .243, I went with the .243 because I have all the brass and dies and because I am a Redding type s snob I didn’t want to wait 6 months on new dies. We throated the barrel out for the 108grn hornady eldm’s to get maximum seating depth for that bullet. Looking forward to collecting it from Dave.

You should have spoken to whidden gunworks, you would have custom dies in two weeks, if that

 

[Sakoodin1]

You should have spoken to whidden gunworks, you would have custom dies in two weeks, if that

Like the .243 though I think it’s a great calibre and with a fast twist it makes it more versatile

 

[User00040]

Fair enough @MarinePMI I’ll bite,
U.K. deer density roughly 8 per sq km
US deer density roughly 2.5 per sq km
US deer population 25 million, and active hunters 15 million, meaning 1.6 deer at any one time per hunter.
U.K. deer population is 2 million ( a 1000 year high) and there are 535,000 registered fac holders. If we assume they all stalk deer, which they don’t, it would still give us 3.7 deer to every U.K. fac holder at any one time.

So I’ll stand by my point that we do have not only a denser population of deer to shoot, but that the fewer hunters in the U.K. will likely kill more deer per head than a hunter in the US.
I’m not wanting to start anything, I’m incredibly envious of the opportunities American hunters have. And yes your map does show how little this country is, if only it was less crowded.

Where are you getting those figures for UK deer density from @Acm ?

 

[User00040]

Like the .243 though I think it’s a great calibre and with a fast twist it makes it more versatile

6mm Remington felt that...

@MarinePMI

 

[Sakoodin1]

6mm Remington felt that...

@MarinePMI

6mm rem is a good in too, I honestly am a big fan of anything from a .308 case, I love my .260 Ack too

 

[JH83]

Having lived in the UK, I'm not sure I'd agree with that assessment. While in the US we are limited in how much game we can take by game regulations/seasons, there are a lot more hunters, and a lot more game to hunt here in the US than the UK IME. In fact, I was stunned by how...sterile...the fauna was in the UK. Nowhere near the diversity (or density) of game as in the US. Which makes sense when you consider the sheer difference in size of our two countries, plus the fact that we haven't been killing stuff off in our country for anywhere near as long as what has been done in the UK.

Case in point: While I only bag one deer a year (mainly due to time and location), there have been years where I have shot well over 600 prairie dogs in just one week, never mind that when deer hunting, it was a decision of which deer of the 60+ I was looking at, that I shot. Never mind dove, quail, pheasant, wild pig (5 varieties in my state alone), duck, geese, coyotes, bobcats, fox, turkey, elk, bear, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, javelina, tree squirrels, rabbits etc...

Then add all the imported exotics (which in many states are not limited by law on bag limits and seasons) like axis deer, auhdad, and others, and you have a much denser wildlife population in the US. Hell, there's more whitetail deer in this country now, than when Columbus landed back in 1492. And then there's the declining hunter population here as well, but again, we're a country of 330M people. Sometimes I think people forget that the UK is under 94 thousand square miles big (with ~67M people), and the US is 3.7 million square miles. Which do you think is going to have a more dense wildlife population? Especially when so much of our wilderness is part of the government park system, and many parts of it are largely untouched and in pretty hospitable/temperate places (Yellowstone, Glacier, Gran Tetons, and those are just some of the big, well known ones).

I mean, come on, the state of Montana is almost 50% larger than the entire UK.

You missed out when you were over buddy!

I think we are fortunate! The best pheasant/partridge shoots in the world, the only place in the world where you can shoot driven grouse, wildfowling everywhere from inland (not really wildfowling but for arguments sake)to estuary goosing, vermin galore (rabbits, foxes, corvids), large bag pigeon days….then stalking, 6 species over vastly different terrains-zero limits and can be sold, subject to some legislation. Most dedicated guys I know with a reasonably tenure in stalking are probably shooting a dozen to 20 a year. Most a lot more (I’ve been out 4 days this week to the mrs anguish ).

Like I say anyone well connected/lucky …. me!!!/patient/wealthy can access all of this within a few hours drive.

Sometimes I look at the states and I’m green with envy, moose, elk, bear….then I listen to the Rinella podcast where his brother is tearing him up because hunting is oversaturated, that on opening days (maybe weeks) the forests are full of orange, every deer is pushed into the most inaccessible areas..and I feel fortunate again.

 

[MarinePMI]

Fair enough @MarinePMI I’ll bite,
U.K. deer density roughly 8 per sq km
US deer density roughly 2.5 per sq km
US deer population 25 million, and active hunters 15 million, meaning 1.6 deer at any one time per hunter.
U.K. deer population is 2 million ( a 1000 year high) and there are 535,000 registered fac holders. If we assume they all stalk deer, which they don’t, it would still give us 3.7 deer to every U.K. fac holder at any one time.

So I’ll stand by my point that we do have not only a denser population of deer to shoot, but that the fewer hunters in the U.K. will likely kill more deer per head than a hunter in the US.
I’m not wanting to start anything, I’m incredibly envious of the opportunities American hunters have. And yes your map does show how little this country is, if only it was less crowded.

I suppose if those numbers were true, you'd have a point. But the reality is, DFG is notorious for under reporting game populations. Most times is just a sampling (and slanted in favor of the treehuggers; it's why we have a 1000 year high).

Case in point: Montana has a wolf hunting season. I forget the number, something like 100 a year/season, and season is something like one month. DFG (by their estimates) said that that number would be sufficient to curb the growing wolf population, and there was a public outcry over what were some obvious douchebaggery derived numbers by the treehuggers running DFG.

So, said treehuggers got pressured, and decided to survey the actual wolf population from helicopters with new ITAR controlled, high fidelity thermal sensors. The survey was supposed to last a month (30 days). After the third night of surveying the actual wolf population, they suspended all further flights, and the season was immediately extended another two months.

But yeah, US DFG population numbers are to be believed. What I can tell you, is having lived in the UK and lived in the US, the density in the UK isn't anywhere near the US. But what do I know...

As you said, I'm not trying to start anything either; certainly not trying to get in a ****ing match over "my country is better than your country" sort of thing, just pointing out that your statement really doesn't make sense when compared to what I've actually seen with my own eyes (and I spent time all over the UK, from Bristol, to Norwich, to Inverness). You do have some beautiful country, and some plentiful (if small) game. But density wise, I just haven't seen it. Not when compared to Texas, Montana, Nebraska and other "fly over country" states, where game is very dense and diverse. I know of some hunters (ahem) that take far more than legally they are allowed. But often times it's going in their freezer to feed their families (the sale of game meat here is illegal), so people tend to look the other way. US DFG doesn't take that into account either, with their estimates. Suffice it to say, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic. Perhaps I should have just not said anything at all. <shrug>

 

[MarinePMI]

You missed out when you were over buddy!

I think we are fortunate! The best pheasant/partridge shoots in the world, the only place in the world where you can shoot driven grouse, wildfowling everywhere from inland (not really wildfowling but for arguments sake)to estuary goosing, vermin galore (rabbits, foxes, corvids), large bag pigeon days….then stalking, 6 species over vastly different terrains-zero limits and can be sold, subject to some legislation. Most dedicated guys I know with a reasonably tenure in stalking are probably shooting a dozen to 20 a year. Most a lot more (I’ve been out 4 days this week to the mrs anguish ).

Like I say anyone well connected/lucky …. me!!!/patient/wealthy can access all of this within a few hours drive.

Sometimes I look at the states and I’m green with envy, moose, elk, bear….then I listen to the Rinella podcast where his brother is tearing him up because hunting is oversaturated, that on opening days (maybe weeks) the forests are full of orange, every deer is pushed into the most inaccessible areas..and I feel fortunate again.

It's a different mindset over here, that's all. I feel like we get the same variety (perhaps more) than you guys in the UK, it's just based on the time of year, and less on access.

As to the podcast talking about the sea of orange, that is mostly public land. And in places like Texas, it's that way because only roughly 2% of the huntable land is public, all the rest is private (and is one of the reasons I will not retire there, despite my extended family living there). And then there's the West. Roughly 80% of the huntable land west of the Rockies, is public. While there are areas that still have a "sea of orange" it's typically the easy to access land (read lazy hunters), but all the prime huntable land requires a walk/hike/ride in. Places where you won't see another soul for a week at a time. Some places probably haven't seen a footprint in a hundred years or more.

Ask Muir about his hunting safety GPS beacon. Montana is still that wild.

While the UK is very nice, and has its game populations, it's not really wild. After a couple thousand years of people hunting, poaching, scavenging off the land, it's no surprise (and I don't mean this as a pejorative, merely a simple fact), there isn't much wild left in the UK, save for the rumored black panthers and other exotic "pets" that may have been let loose. But definitely not the "sitting at a campfire, having the hair stand up on the back of your neck, and looking over to see the glassy eyes of a bobcat watching you from under a bush 15 ft away", kind of wild. Like said, the UK was beautiful, but not really wild in comparison to other parts of the world. Again, I say that with the utmost respect. I did enjoy my time there, and save for the idiotic gun laws, I would have stayed for another two years. I enjoyed the friendly and polite people, the dry humor and comradery of friends and co-worker, and the living in the English countryside (the additional two year stint would have been in north London...uhhh, no thanks). One of these days I'm sure I'll go back with the missus (she used to live their as well, up near King's Lynn) to visit old friends...

 

[JH83]

It's a different mindset over here, that's all. I feel like we get the same variety (perhaps more) than you guys in the UK, it's just based on the time of year, and less on access.

As to the podcast talking about the sea of orange, that is mostly public land. And in places like Texas, it's that way because only roughly 2% of the huntable land is public, all the rest is private (and is one of the reasons I will not retire there, despite my extended family living there). And then there's the West. Roughly 80% of the huntable land west of the Rockies, is public. While there are areas that still have a "sea of orange" it's typically the easy to access land (read lazy hunters), but all the prime huntable land requires a walk/hike/ride in. Places where you won't see another soul for a week at a time. Some places probably haven't seen a footprint in a hundred years or more.

Ask Muir about his hunting safety GPS beacon. Montana is still that wild.

While the UK is very nice, and has its game populations, it's not really wild. After a couple thousand years of people hunting, poaching, scavenging off the land, it's no surprise (and I don't mean this as a pejorative, merely a simple fact), there isn't much wild left in the UK, save for the rumored black panthers and other exotic "pets" that may have been let loose. But definitely not the "sitting at a campfire, having the hair stand up on the back of your neck, and looking over to see the glassy eyes of a bobcat watching you from under a bush 15 ft away", kind of wild. Like said, the UK was beautiful, but not really wild in comparison to other parts of the world. Again, I say that with the utmost respect. I did enjoy my time there, and save for the idiotic gun laws, I would have stayed for another two years. I enjoyed the friendly and polite people, the dry humor and comradery of friends and co-worker, and the living in the English countryside (the additional two year stint would have been in north London...uhhh, no thanks). One of these days I'm sure I'll go back with the missus (she used to live their as well, up near King's Lynn) to visit old friends...

Fully agreed

Sadly no unmanaged land at all. Even the highlands, as wild as they seem, have been moulded by the hand of man-hence why we need such heavy culls.

The gun laws get even more weird. An MP was attempting to bring a private members bill to ban pump actions last week….I doubt he was aware of the existence of semi autos.

And, after you put it like that, I’m back in the jealous camp !

 

[Acm]

It's a different mindset over here, that's all. I feel like we get the same variety (perhaps more) than you guys in the UK, it's just based on the time of year, and less on access.

As to the podcast talking about the sea of orange, that is mostly public land. And in places like Texas, it's that way because only roughly 2% of the huntable land is public, all the rest is private (and is one of the reasons I will not retire there, despite my extended family living there). And then there's the West. Roughly 80% of the huntable land west of the Rockies, is public. While there are areas that still have a "sea of orange" it's typically the easy to access land (read lazy hunters), but all the prime huntable land requires a walk/hike/ride in. Places where you won't see another soul for a week at a time. Some places probably haven't seen a footprint in a hundred years or more.

Ask Muir about his hunting safety GPS beacon. Montana is still that wild.

While the UK is very nice, and has its game populations, it's not really wild. After a couple thousand years of people hunting, poaching, scavenging off the land, it's no surprise (and I don't mean this as a pejorative, merely a simple fact), there isn't much wild left in the UK, save for the rumored black panthers and other exotic "pets" that may have been let loose. But definitely not the "sitting at a campfire, having the hair stand up on the back of your neck, and looking over to see the glassy eyes of a bobcat watching you from under a bush 15 ft away", kind of wild. Like said, the UK was beautiful, but not really wild in comparison to other parts of the world. Again, I say that with the utmost respect. I did enjoy my time there, and save for the idiotic gun laws, I would have stayed for another two years. I enjoyed the friendly and polite people, the dry humor and comradery of friends and co-worker, and the living in the English countryside (the additional two year stint would have been in north London...uhhh, no thanks). One of these days I'm sure I'll go back with the missus (she used to live their as well, up near King's Lynn) to visit old friends...

Completely agree, it’s a very managed landscape. Apologies if my prior message came across as rude.

 

[Turkish]

I had a 6-6.5 x 47 Lapua built. Did all the things I wanted it too. would I do it again ?? Probably not.

All the hassle of reloading and forming cases, then shifting it on when I got bored with it. Limited market and the wheel kickers answering the ads.
Stick with what you know. You know it makes sense. ...............................

 

[MarinePMI]

Completely agree, it’s a very managed landscape. Apologies if my prior message came across as rude.

Not at all; quite the opposite actually. I was more concerned that I was coming off as "The Ugly American".

 

[Acm]

Where are you getting those figures for UK deer density from @Acm

Sorry @caberslash I’ve only just seen this.
From the deer initiative

 

[25 Sharps]

Barrel burner. Let’s put it in the magnum range of a fried barrel at 1100 shots.

Say I use 100 shots on barrel break in, load development and scoping.

My other thousand shots. I could shoot 20 foxes or dear per week for a year. Or I could shoot 2 foxes or deer per week for 10 years.

Barrel burning is a term bandied around by people who have never shot a barrel out. Me included.

I’ll be happy if I need to get my 6mm Creed rebarreled in 10 years.

Fine.

I could do 50-100 rounds on a Sunday at the club….

 

[25 Sharps]

I had a 6-6.5 x 47 Lapua built. Did all the things I wanted it too. would I do it again ?? Probably not.

All the hassle of reloading and forming cases, then shifting it on when I got bored with it. Limited market and the wheel kickers answering the ads.
Stick with what you know. You know it makes sense. ...............................

Is that basically a 6XC? Now available with less hassle than the 6-6.5x47 lap?

 

[Dogtra UK]

Fine.

I could do 50-100 rounds on a Sunday at the club….

But that’s the thing. We are on a deer stalking site. Yes barrel burning is something realistic for a commercial deer contractor or a club shooter. But my foxing rifle or my deer rifle will easily see me to retirement.
On the other hand my club rifle is going to need a new barrel regularly.

 

[samdk]

Just wondering about rebarreling my 243 Heym at some point. It still shoots well. Just questioning whether 6mm CM would be better than a faster twist 243 (ie better with longer copper bullets) or just go to 6.5 CM. However I do shoot 7mm so 6.5 is really quite similar. I suppose real benefit of going to a faster twist 243 is that I don't need any form of variation etc.

I had a 6cm built just over a year ago, cracking gun and it was easy to develop a load for. Happy to help with any questions.

Sam

 

[.Skinner.]

I had a 6cm built just over a year ago, cracking gun and it was easy to develop a load for. Happy to help with any questions.

Sam

Hi Sam,

Where did you find good load data, and what powder did you opt for in the end? In mine, I’m looking to run 108gr ELD-M and am keen to find the best powder. It seems that H4350 and RL15/17 are popular in the states, but I haven’t found much availability and definitely want to find something I can repeat buy fairly easily!

Thanks

Ben

 

[Jax]

Hi Sam,

Where did you find good load data, and what powder did you opt for in the end? In mine, I’m looking to run 108gr ELD-M and am keen to find the best powder. It seems that H4350 and RL15/17 are popular in the states, but I haven’t found much availability and definitely want to find something I can repeat buy fairly easily!

Thanks

Ben

Hornady use RL-16 in their 108gr match ammo. I’ve got a tub, but not got around to trying it yet. RS62 is what I currently use with good results. RL-17 may be better in a shorter barrel perhaps, but going by what others say, it’s harsher on the barrel.

The attached is factory Hornady 108gr. Bottom target is 3 shots