Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[25 Sharps]

Jeezus man but your relentless.
The lead ammunition group had been quietly ticking over for about 30 years, every time they came up with a proposal for change, every single state in the EU except possibly Denmark and Norway would appeal it or refuse to ratify.
The lack of progress ****ed a lot of people off.
So we had the WHO (or could have been REACH), pop up with the scientifically proven and peer reviewed fact that there was no such thing as a safe level of lead ( they also decided that theres no safe level of alcohol consumption, but one step at a time)
REACH officially asked the Lead ammunition sub group to review their findings with reference to the zero safe level of lead recommendation, with reference to the environmental effects and human health. They were also asked to review their findings given that the Zero lead ammunition target was now EU policy.
The big change here is the word “ POLICY”.
The EU is now officially a lead ammunition free zone ASAP.
Having dandered along without much effect for 30 years, that memo lit a fire under the ammo groups asses which is why we’re all dealing with a very much accelerated program now.
You guys have left the EU, but the basic rules of toxicology haven’t been affected by that move , the official policy is “ no safe level of lead”. This is the driver for the lead ban, it doesn’t matter where you live on the planet or what your personal beliefs are, this is now dogma, just the same as climate change, gender fluidity and the Easter Bunny are real.
The actual physical effects of lead are secondary to the POLICY, which is a ban .
Now lets talk about the” B “ word,
You’ve left the Residents Association but your still living in the same house, you’ve signed up to a few agreements when you first joined and a lot of them are still valid. You can do whatever you like inside your own gaff, but you can’t do sh1t that affects the rest of the neighbourhood without the neighbours agreement, and that includes exposing migratory birds to lead after the rest of us have stopped, or feeding lead contaminated produce to the rest of us because you don’t think that it matters.
The more I read on this site the more I become convinced that Britain isn’t just a country, its a state of mind.
Its a very infectious condition, theres a lot of it here too.
I can’t wait til we start the debate on the Zero alcohol policy……I have yeast and sugar and copper pipe.

You’re not really listening are you?

I am not daft enough to think keeping lead out of human food is a bad idea, or is not necessary.

But do we need to exclude it entirely from the environment? Probably not in my opinion, only where there is potential for it to do real harm.

Do we need to exclude it from the butts at the local range? The indoor range? Almost certainly not, there is no real threat if it is cleared and disposed of safely.

That is where I hope we can stay separate from EU blanket legislation or policy. Time will tell.

 

[Kersnow]

We are all full of doom and gloom.

Anyone know what has happened to numbers shooting clays in Germany where steel has been mandatory for years?

Lead will be gone soon so we need to look at alternatives which may have been easier if the numpties behind the voluntary transition hadn't linked it with the phase out of plastic wads.

We should be lobbying for a New Zealind type of model but that won't appease the nonsensical BGA of which a minority of game dealefs are memmbers

 

[25 Sharps]

i really don’t see banning lead stopping people shooting. It may change things a bit, but is the cost of cartridges really going to stop game and clay shooting. Much more of an impact will be general cost of living in particular on fuel and general availability of cash to fund recreational pursuits. Personally I don’t do much big day driven shooting, mainly because you get little change out £1,000 for a days shooting, especially if you have added in a night away in an inn, travel and a few extra meals etc.

As for rise in raptor numbers this has been down reintroductions and the linking of farm subsidies to biodiversity and loss of subsidies if you or your employees are caught harming birds of prey.

20 years ago hooked beaked crows were pretty much shot on the orders of the boss.

Loss of a few tens of thousands of pounds is a big disincentive to carry on such behaviour. And for modern keepers, criminal record and loss of firearms equals end of career.

As for buzzards being buzzards, kites being kites and vultures being vultures, they all eat a lot of carrion, all have very acidic stomachs and all pretty similar physiologically.

But of course there are massive physiological differences between UK Roe and Fallow deer, rabbits and hares, to the North American White Tail, Black Tail and Mule Deer, so earing a lead shot mule deer in California is totally different to eating a lead shot Fallow in Sussex.

But as we do know the Red Deer of UK is very close to Sika Deer and North American Wapati or Elk, so much so that where they have been introduced to each other they will breed and produce fertile offspring.

But of course there must be such a difference in their diet that a lead shot elk in California will poison a condor, but a lead shot red deer will have no effect on white tailed sea eagles or golden eagles or buzzards in the UK.

And of course Golden Eagles, Buzzards and Kites found in the UK are totally different to those found in North America.

Sarcasm doesn’t really befit you.

As mentioned above, of course lead affects all birds and lack of persecution has given rise to population increase. But if lead was a significant issue then the populations would not be growing, or growing much more slowly. Chances are kites and buzzards feed far more on worms, and on our overpopulated little island, roadkill than they do lead shot carrion, but there are no studies to prove this either way.

Removal of lead bullets/cartridges/pellets will undeniably reduce the affordability of shooting and therefore less people will be shooting. The rising cost of living will only exacerbate the losses.

You really do need to take your blinkers off as you have a very narrow view.

 

[Liveonce]

You really do need to take your blinkers off as you have a very narrow view.

Think those who are pro total lead ban are thinking it will not impact or stop me enjoying my sport, so will just let those who it will impact on sacrifice their sport to save the planet.

which is just history repeating itself , re pistol ban, etc……. divided we fall.

 

[Dunwaters]

You’re not really listening are you?

I am not daft enough to think keeping lead out of human food is a bad idea, or is not necessary.

But do we need to exclude it entirely from the environment? Probably not in my opinion, only where there is potential for it to do real harm.

Do we need to exclude it from the butts at the local range? The indoor range? Almost certainly not, there is no real threat if it is cleared and disposed of safely.

That is where I hope we can stay separate from EU blanket legislation or policy. Time will tell.

I am listening, not just to you, but to NARGC, BASC and a few others besides. I don’t always agree, but once I’m voted down I adapt and move on.
So lets agree that lead is going out from the food chain in so far as practical, both full bore rifle and shotgun. There are problems but nothing insurmountable for most of us.
Target shooting, lead rifle ammo indoors or into butts shouldn’t pose a problem. Clays may,depending on the ground and might need some form of buffer zone if we’re going to continue to use lead, 7.5’s can carry about 130 yds.
Pretty much all of the above is in hand, there is a move to shift the shotguns to steel, so I can see some grounds going “ steel only” and clay grounds over water going to steel or be closed.
Large scale game shooting won’t really be affected, at £60 per bird the cost of the shell is pretty much an afterthought, vermin shooters will use steel in the shotguns, no real problem there either, they don’t tend to use old, valuable side by sides.
Which leaves air guns and rim fires, I’m not going to comment on air guns, I‘ve zero experience, but theres moves for an exemption on the .22lr, the target mob are behind us.
So who’s actually going to get shut down?

 

[Liveonce]

I am listening, not just to you, but to NARGC, BASC and a few others besides. I don’t always agree, but once I’m voted down I adapt and move on.
So lets agree that lead is going out from the food chain in so far as practical, both full bore rifle and shotgun. There are problems but nothing insurmountable for most of us.
Target shooting, lead rifle ammo indoors or into butts shouldn’t pose a problem. Clays may,depending on the ground and might need some form of buffer zone if we’re going to continue to use lead, 7.5’s can carry about 130 yds.
Pretty much all of the above is in hand, there is a move to shift the shotguns to steel, so I can see some grounds going “ steel only” and clay grounds over water are going steel or be closed.
Large scale game shooting won’t really be affected, at £60 per bird the cost of the shell is pretty much an afterthought, vermin shooters will use steel in the shotguns, no real problem there either.
Which leaves air guns and rim fires, I’m not going to comment on air guns, I‘ve zero experience, but theres moves for an exemption on the .22lr, the target mob are behind us.
So who’s going to get shut down?

That‘s simple then, as like BASC you think only 12gauge guns exist, but yes sacrifices will have to be made and some people will make bigger sacrifices than others.

 

[25 Sharps]

I am listening, not just to you, but to NARGC, BASC and a few others besides. I don’t always agree, but once I’m voted down I adapt and move on.
So lets agree that lead is going out from the food chain in so far as practical, both full bore rifle and shotgun. There are problems but nothing insurmountable for most of us.
Target shooting, lead rifle ammo indoors or into butts shouldn’t pose a problem. Clays may,depending on the ground and might need some form of buffer zone if we’re going to continue to use lead, 7.5’s can carry about 130 yds.
Pretty much all of the above is in hand, there is a move to shift the shotguns to steel, so I can see some grounds going “ steel only” and clay grounds over water going to steel or be closed.
Large scale game shooting won’t really be affected, at £60 per bird the cost of the shell is pretty much an afterthought, vermin shooters will use steel in the shotguns, no real problem there either, they don’t tend to use old, valuable side by sides.
Which leaves air guns and rim fires, I’m not going to comment on air guns, I‘ve zero experience, but theres moves for an exemption on the .22lr, the target mob are behind us.
So who’s actually going to get shut down?

What about CF for vermin and fox, small bore shotguns?

As for who is going to get shut down, from Connor’s post looks like we’ll find out in a few weeks so let’s pause for now me pick it up from there?

 

[Dunwaters]

What about CF for vermin and fox, small bore shotguns?

As for who is going to get shut down, from Connor’s post looks like we’ll find out in a few weeks so let’s pause for now me pick it up from there?

Roger, we’ll wait for clarification, the CF vermin should be OK, the small bore shotties might have to wait a while for an alternative and I’d bet it’ll be expensive, TSS or Bismuth.
Stay safe.

 

[49ERIC]

I'm going to disagree with you on point 1- there are still a lot of lead-free bullets out there that are not providing humane kills and to my knowledge none that will allow you to take your third, fourth, fifth or sixth beast out of a herd once it's disturbed and no longer presenting those textbook broadsides in a leisurely, take your time fashion- at which point we're into solid lung shot territory... and copper pencils right on through.
I'd say there's a very long way to go yet on that front (and I also recognise that it's a journey and we should get there eventually)

Spot on .... Respect for the Quarry , Seems this point has gone right out of the window , '' Expanding Lead '' Means instant Humane Dispatch , solid copper ??? or what ever replaces the Lead Expanding Bullet , Needs have exactly the same end result . Otherwise , It could cause all of us more problems in the future

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Spot on .... Respect for the Quarry , Seems this point has gone right out of the window , '' Expanding Lead '' Means instant Humane Dispatch , solid copper ??? or what ever replaces the Lead Expanding Bullet , Needs have exactly the same end result . Otherwise , It could cause all of us more problems in the future

How many animals have you shot with copper?

 

[sikamalc]

How many animals have you shot with copper?

I have seen a fair number with clients, long before some on here were stalking, and up to the present day. And I am still to be convinced that they are as effective as a copper, lead core bullet.

 

[Heym SR20]

That‘s simple then, as like BASC you think only 12gauge guns exist, but yes sacrifices will have to be made and some people will make bigger sacrifices than others.

Nope, there are already plenty of good steel options for the 20 bore, and for the 16, 28 and 410 there are Bismuth options and manufacturers websites say other options will be forthcoming.

Most of the options currently on the market, 12 bore included are in brands earmarked for game shooting rather than clays.

As pointed out elsewhere current lead clay shooting cartridges tend to be priced £10 to £20 less per 250 cartridges than an equivalent game cartridge. Not really that much difference other than shot size.

Given that steel game are similar price point to standard game, you would expect the clay steel will be priced on a par with standard clay cartridges.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I have seen a fair number with clients, long before some on here were stalking, and up to the present day. And I am still to be convinced that they are as effective as a copper, lead core bullet.

I reckon you will be finding out yourself in the not very distant future!

 

[Robs]

It seems the focus from the BASC and the other proponents seems to be shotgun cartridges and deer stalking, there are the solutions. There are no solutions that are workable for airguns, .22lr subs or .22lr target shooting. Anyone saying there are simply has no grasp. There are literally thousands of smallbore clubs and there is no alternative if lead goes for target shooting. BASC never says anything on this. There will be no appetite to regularly rebarrel for the vast majority (which will be necessary to maintain accuracy for match rifles) and as the majority of shooters have small budgets, in many cases using club rifles, that part of the shooting sports can be considered gone. Please Conor explain what the plan is here?

 

[kes]

I'll limit my involvement in this topic to relative assessment of lead as a toxin - here is a short assessment from the US, which, as you know has been lead-free as far as shooting is concerned for some time.

Our Daily Dose of Poison: A Look at Lead in the Food Supply | Spectroscopy Online

How much lead is in our daily lives? We take a look at current research concerning lead in the United States food supply and investigations using ICP-MS into the measurement of high concentrations of lead in food.

www.spectroscopyonline.com

So why is lead in any projectile such a problem ? It isnt shooting is the problem for very many in the anti - movement.

 

[palmer_mike]

The trouble with lead bullets is that on hitting an animal there is enough energy that the lead melts and then you have a column of molten sprayed into the caracass.

I call bullsh1t on the above.
Below (if I can upload the pics ) you will see 2 pure lead bullets cast by myself. One is unfired the other has been shot at ballistics gelatine (I have access to this as a consequence of my job).
You will note that the weight of both bullets is as near to being the same as makes no difference in a cast lead bullet

I have shot deer with these bullets and will continue to do so. Perfect performance on all the deer I have shot so far and no evidence of bullet fragmentation or indeed melting

 

[Liveonce]

Nope, there are already plenty of good steel options for the 20 bore, and for the 16, 28 and 410 there are Bismuth options and manufacturers websites say other options will be forthcoming.

Most of the options currently on the market, 12 bore included are in brands earmarked for game shooting rather than clays.

As pointed out elsewhere current lead clay shooting cartridges tend to be priced £10 to £20 less per 250 cartridges than an equivalent game cartridge. Not really that much difference other than shot size.

Given that steel game are similar price point to standard game, you would expect the clay steel will be priced on a par with standard clay cartridges.

Rubbish their are few if any options in 20ga, 16ga, 28ga and .410 with biodegradable wads.
Bismuth is not a cost effective option. Consider a lot of juniors enter the sport using .410, 28ga and 20ga via clay pigeon shooting.
Manufactures can say other options will be forthcoming just like I can say clay cartridges will be £50 per 1000 forthcoming, the world is flat and steel shot gives superior terminal ballistics than lead.

as for comparing the cost of game cartridges to clay cartridges a gain not sensible the average game shooter will shoot many thousands less than the average clay shooter.

Plastic biodegradable wads are approximately four to five times the price to buy then fibre wads so steel with plastic biodegradable will be more expensive than lead with fibre wads for a very long time and possibly for ever.
Then steel shoot needs a different powder that is more expensive then the fast powders used in budget lead clay cartridges.

Clearly you have never worked in the cartridge manufacturing industry.

 

[Heym SR20]

Rubbish their are few if any options in 20ga, 16ga, 28ga and .410 with biodegradable wads.
Bismuth is not a cost effective option. Consider a lot of juniors enter the sport using .410, 28ga and 20ga via clay pigeon shooting.
Manufactures can say other options will be forthcoming just like I can say clay cartridges will be £50 per 1000 forthcoming, the world is flat and steel shot gives superior terminal ballistics than lead.

as for comparing the cost of game cartridges to clay cartridges a gain not sensible the average game shooter will shoot many thousands less than the average clay shooter.

Plastic biodegradable wads are approximately four to five times the price to buy then fibre wads so steel with plastic biodegradable will be more expensive than lead with fibre wads for a very long time and possibly for ever.
Then steel shoot needs a different powder that is more expensive then the fast powders used in budget lead clay cartridges.

Clearly you have never worked in the cartridge manufacturing industry.

No there are not yet large numbers of options for the small bores. But the demand will be met. Yes they will be more expensive than cheap 12 bore cartridges, but even now 410 cartridges are expensive compared to 12s.

As for Eco-wads and eco plastics - yes they are expensive as manufacturers charge high prices so they can recover development costs quickly. In some cases the tech is protected by patent, again this keeps pricing high, but all manufacturers are working on different, but competitive solutions. This, combined with volumes will bring down prices. Alternatively people will just shoot fewer and less often - that is not in the interests of the shooting industry.

Clay grounds make there money on all income streams and in many cases cartridges and / or clays are a break even or even loss leader - with the hospitality, lessons, etc being the profit centre - but every ground and company will be different. Some will choose to adapt, some won’t but that’s business.

 

[Liveonce]

No there are not yet large numbers of options for the small bores. But the demand will be met. Yes they will be more expensive than cheap 12 bore cartridges, but even now 410 cartridges are expensive compared to 12s.

As for Eco-wads and eco plastics - yes they are expensive as manufacturers charge high prices so they can recover development costs quickly. In some cases the tech is protected by patent, again this keeps pricing high, but all manufacturers are working on different, but competitive solutions. This, combined with volumes will bring down prices. Alternatively people will just shoot fewer and less often - that is not in the interests of the shooting industry.

Clay grounds make there money on all income streams and in many cases cartridges and / or clays are a break even or even loss leader - with the hospitality, lessons, etc being the profit centre - but every ground and company will be different. Some will choose to adapt, some won’t but that’s business.

Their are NO options of .410, 28ga, 16ga using biodegradable plastic wads and steel shot, that I know about.

So are you saying their is no such demand now, despite the likes of Denmark being non toxic shot only.

The larger commercial clay grounds may make additional money from cartridges, hospitality, lessons etc however the DIY clubs will probably not.

So grounds sell clays at break even or a loss?

Really clays cost around 8p to 10p each, find me a ground selling for that (or less) most commercial grounds will be anything from 28p to 42p DIY clubs from 12p.

Most commercial grounds will make much more profit from the clays then the cartridges, because without the catridges you don't sell the clay.

A big diversity of clay shooting venues from the small diy clubs, to the large commercial grounds offering more than just shooting. It is that diversity that allows the working man (and pensioner) to shoot on a weekend, through to those who shoot registered competitions regularly. It is that very diversity which allows the sport to thrive.
End up with only premiere grounds at currently 42p a clay and 30p+ a cartridge and less will then shoot as often, as many or at all. It’s a hobby.

And don’t forget it is the clay cartridge sales that keep the gates open at the factories, reduced sales leading to lost revenue has to be made up somehow.

what do you do for a living? You clearly do not work within cartridge manufacturing, clay grounds or shooting retail.

 

[Whitefront]

A lead-head tells the troops what he thinks of their new non-lead ammo....