Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Norfolk Deer Search]

What you guys are failing to understand is, that those who sanction this ban don’t actually give a monkeys about all the small bore / old guns etc in fact i dont think they care about guns at all!

As and when it comes i think it will be a flat out ban!

And I honestly think nothing is going to stop it regardless of all the moaning and jumping about.

 

[StephenToast]

What you guys are failing to understand is, that those who sanction this ban don’t actually give a monkeys about all the small bore / old guns etc in fact i dont think they care about guns at all!

As and when it comes i think it will be a flat out ban!

And I honestly think nothing is going to stop it regardless of all the moaning and jumping about.

This is correct. Especially as there are non- lead alternatives that in the case of 80-90% of shooting are either perfectly adequate or an improvment on lead ammunition.

What needs to hapoen now is the other 10-20% need to stop all the whining and use that energy to work to finding their own solutions.

When the lead ban came in for wildfowling all this moaning and banging on happened. Old damascas guns were gping to go on the scrap heap, animal welfare was going to suffer blah blah blah... People are still wildfowling though aren't they?

The same old arguments come up in all these threads from small minded people. In reality, people who have taken it on face value and gone out and plugged away with an open mind quietly realise that a lead ban is nothing to fear and just get on with it. It's the vocal minority that have a problem with it.


Move on or get left behind.

 

[Liveonce]

This is correct. Especially as there are non- lead alternatives that in the case of 80-90% of shooting are either perfectly adequate or an improvment on lead ammunition.

What needs to hapoen now is the other 10-20% need to stop all the whining and use that energy to work to finding their own solutions.

When the lead ban came in for wildfowling all this moaning and banging on happened. Old damascas guns were gping to go on the scrap heap, animal welfare was going to suffer blah blah blah... People are still wildfowling though aren't they?

The same old arguments come up in all these threads from small minded people. In reality, people who have taken it on face value and gone out and plugged away with an open mind quietly realise that a lead ban is nothing to fear and just get on with it. It's the vocal minority that have a problem with it.


Move on or get left behind.

however the scope of a total ban would be far far bigger than that of wildfowling, which is unique in its choice of firearms and large payload cartridges. You won’t find many game shooters using 3.5inch semi autos with HP steel magnum loads.

Airgun non toxic pellets are also crap and airguns are an important source of income for a lot of gun shops and an introduction to the sport/hobby. Price the beginners out of the sport, airgun, clays and what long term future will it have?

plan for the worst, hope for the best, I guess.

 

[enfieldspares]

Enfieldspares the problem is policing any exemption which allow lead shot to continue to be a choice.

We seem to be able to police a ban on using shotguns under 12 bore with shot less than a certain size for use on deer, we seem to be able to police the Wildlife and Countryside Act ban on large capacity self-loading shotguns for game shooting, we seem to be able to police a ban on a number of aspects. I don't see a difficulty in doing this with lead use in older guns either as the evidence is checked on an examination of the weapon and holder's authority to possess if an "owned before" exemption were allowed.

 

[enfieldspares]

When the lead ban came in for wildfowling all this moaning and banging on happened. Old damascas guns were gping to go on the scrap heap, animal welfare was going to suffer blah blah blah... People are still wildfowling though aren't they?

England...because all of the UK is actually the same as England?

Lead for wildfowl still remains legal in Scotland and Northern Ireland outside of wetlands. Not all of us live in England and Wales and not all of us that do shoot wildfowl here but shoot them in Scotland.

Please if you generalise get the facts right! England is not "the UK".

 

[Heym SR20]

My plan,

1) Centrefire rifles - no issues - already using non toxic.

2) Shotguns - Franchi Affinity - already using highspeed steel on the foreshore and it just plain works. AyA Coral over an under - open chocked so will use steel such as VIP Steel etc. AyA No3 20 Bore, - will have the chokes opened up to use steel. My 100 year old Alex Martin Sidelock - I will use a cartridge designed for old vintage guns. If this is Bismuth then I will just suck up the cost and be sparing in my shots. 410 Side by Side William Jeffery, I will buy bismuth shot, reload it and again it will be used occasionally on walkup woodcock. If I was going to be doing lots of game shooting with the appropriate funds available to do so, I would acquire a modern steel shot proofed gun and there are plenty available starting from the likes of the Koffs at less than the cost of a days shooting on upwards.

3) Rimfire - I will try the non lead alternatives in my old Brno Mod 2. They may or may not work. If I was ever going back to large numbers of rabbit control, not sure of the answer and there definnately does need to be an answer to sub sonic silent cartridge for such work.

Don't know if this a rimfire or whether we need to scratch our heads and develop something more akin to the old Rook Rifle type cartridges - ie a small pistol type case shooting a 50 gn frangible copper bullet at around 1,000 ft per second out of a fast twist barrel. Or rather than a cartridge rifle, a PCP type air rifle shooting an appropriate slug / diablo pellet out of the correct twist may be a better answer. 30 years ago we all used spring powered air rifles. Now every one uses a PCP, so innovation can and does work.

Biggest challenge here will be the Firearms Licencing, and getting the Home Office guidance to stop the inward sucking of teeth when you for any change from the 22rf.

 

[Liveonce]

We seem to be able to police a ban on using shotguns under 12 bore with shot less than a certain size for use on deer, we seem to be able to police the Wildlife and Countryside Act ban on large capacity self-loading shotguns for game shooting, we seem to be able to police a ban on a number of aspects. I don't see a difficulty in doing this with lead use in older guns either as the evidence is checked on an examination of the weapon and holder's authority to possess if an "owned before" exemption were allowed.

indeed but if their is a significant price difference between steel shot in a biodegradable wad and lead shot cartridge then as even now the temptation will be to use say lead 2.4mm for decoyed pigeons or possibly even game shoots where the game is taken away by the guns and beaters.

However hope you are correct and a significant reduction in the use of lead rather than a total ban will be the way forward.

 

[enfieldspares]

indeed but if their is a significant price difference between steel shot in a biodegradable wad and lead shot cartridge then as even now the temptation will be to use say lead 2.4mm for decoyed pigeons or possibly even game shoots where the game is taken away by the guns and beaters.

However hope you are correct and a significant reduction in the use of lead rather than a total ban will be the way forward.

I certainly sold my Boss in December 2021 as I wanted to be ahead of what I fear will be as dramatic a collapse in the UK value of such guns as we saw in the 1970s and 1980s with the collapse in the value boxlock non-ejectors. I hope something along what I propose might come about....but for now I'll play the percentages. Like others I shall suck up the bismuth cost in my late father's gun that I do retain and for everything else side-by-side I have bought an old AYA Yeoman Ejector and an "Essex" Spanish S/B/S boxlock ejector. And my .410 AYA No4...I'm hoping for an exemption. Or, if not, handloading bismuth.

 

[25 Sharps]

What you guys are failing to understand is, that those who sanction this ban don’t actually give a monkeys about all the small bore / old guns etc in fact i dont think they care about guns at all!

As and when it comes i think it will be a flat out ban!

And I honestly think nothing is going to stop it regardless of all the moaning and jumping about.

This is correct. Especially as there are non- lead alternatives that in the case of 80-90% of shooting are either perfectly adequate or an improvment on lead ammunition.

What needs to hapoen now is the other 10-20% need to stop all the whining and use that energy to work to finding their own solutions.

When the lead ban came in for wildfowling all this moaning and banging on happened. Old damascas guns were gping to go on the scrap heap, animal welfare was going to suffer blah blah blah... People are still wildfowling though aren't they?

The same old arguments come up in all these threads from small minded people. In reality, people who have taken it on face value and gone out and plugged away with an open mind quietly realise that a lead ban is nothing to fear and just get on with it. It's the vocal minority that have a problem with it.


Move on or get left behind.

Right, as I posted above and quoted below I can to move on with non-lead, I can't prepare myself any further, so do I just give up on the other parts of my hobby?

Lee, what are your not understanding?

I have 4 loads developed for shooting deer with lead free.

I can shoot steel for pigeons and clays and know what works in my guns pattern wise and for killing.

I cannot shoot lead free for target at Bisley for the majority of ranges and disciplines we shoot, it is not allowed on MOD ranges for civilian use.

I cannot shoot lead free at my local gallery club due to the back stop arrangement not being suitable, and you find me non expanding .357 ammunition or bullets in the uk.

I cannot shoot lead free in .22 RF as the only alternatives available don’t shoot for toffee.

I cannot shoot lead free in my .410 for rats, something I do regularly, as no alternatives are available.

I cannot shoot lead free in my air rifle as the alternatives available don’t shoot for toffee.

You keep saying ‘prepare yourselves’ or ‘sort yourselves out and get on with it’ but if there is no viable alternative how do you suggest we prepare ourselves? Simply give up those areas of our hobby where there are no suitable alternatives?

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Right, as I posted above and quoted below I can to move on with non-lead, I can't prepare myself any further, so do I just give up on the other parts of my hobby?

That sir you can only answer yourself,

Luckily for me, i dont shoot shotguns air riles or rimfires, but I have long been an advocate of finding solutions, every hurdle that affects my shooting I have sat down thought about adjusted overcome and got on with it and carried on.

when the next hurdle comes after the lead ban (not that if affects mw!) comes along i will find a solution and I will carry on a little longer to the point where I’m completely hacked off with it and then I shall call it a day!

 

[25 Sharps]

That sir you can only answer yourself,

Luckily for me, i dont shoot shotguns air riles or rimfires, but I have long been an advocate of finding solutions, every hurdle that affects my shooting I have sat down thought about adjusted overcome and got on with it and carried on.

when the next hurdle comes after the lead ban (not that if affects mw!) comes along i will find a solution and I will carry on a little longer to the point where I’m completely hacked off with it and then I shall call it a day!

So we are to just resign ourselves to calling it a day because those who aren’t affected (deer stalkers) are happy enough to carry on as they are and not stand up for other areas of shooting sports?

That is why shooting is doomed….

 

[palmer_mike]

So we are to just resign ourselves to calling it a day because those who aren’t affected (deer stalkers) are happy enough to carry on as they are and not stand up for other areas of shooting sports?

That is why shooting is doomed….

Couldn’t agree more.
Plenty of ‘im alright jack’ attitude on display.
It is indeed why shooting is doomed. When we willingly divide the shooting community we are much much weaker as a result.

There are shooters who CANNOT use lead free ammunition for one reason or another.

 

[Whitefront]

The people who risk dooming shooting are the old buffers who won't countenance change, mulishly defend the indefensible and spread myths to undermine the take-up and further development of non-toxic ammunition. They are (inadvertently) doing the antis' job for them.

 

[25 Sharps]

The people who risk dooming shooting are the old buffers who won't countenance change, mulishly defend the indefensible and spread myths to undermine the take-up and further development of non-toxic ammunition. They are (inadvertently) doing the antis' job for them.

Did you read my post 137 or what I posted above?

I have 4 lead free loads developed for deer, I can use steel in my 12 for pigeons. That’s fine, I have no issue with changing.

What about all of the other areas of my hobby, air rifle, rim fire? Where alternatives are available but are unsuitable.

.410 for rats, where I am doing a service for a farmer for free and can shoot 50-100+ in a night?

There are no lead free options for any of the target shooting I do as the ranges either won’t allow them or the back stops are not suitable. Copper .357 non expanding bullets are just not available in the UK and if they were the price verses cast is horrendous.

How else do you suggest I ‘make ready’ I’ve done everything I can and it’s is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the amount and types of rounds I shoot?

‘Non toxic’ ammunition is also a myth, certainly for copper, which in itself can be toxic!

 

[palmer_mike]

The people who risk dooming shooting are the old buffers who won't countenance change, mulishly defend the indefensible and spread myths to undermine the take-up and further development of non-toxic ammunition. They are (inadvertently) doing the antis' job for them

So we should be content to allow the demise of cap and ball revolver shooting, shooting vintage rifles and muzzle loader shooting as well as others mentioned above.

They will pay the price for the good of the rest of the shooting community?
You think those affected by the banning of their sport will be ok with it because (in your opinion) their sacrifice will ensure the continuance of your sport?

You really think that those who seek to attack shooting will stop once lead is banned?

 

[Whitefront]

No shooting organisation is promoting a ban on lead, and nor is any promoting a voluntary phasing out of lead for anything but live quarry shotgun shooting. Certainly not for target shooting, where the lead is generally deposited in a specific area, rather than the wider environment. As for ammo used for deer, stalkers are already changing of their own accord.

Of course attacks on shooting will not stop if lead is banned. Whoever imagined they would? But we can only fight on so many fronts at once, and lead from shotguns used on live quarry is an an avoidable self-inflicted injury that aids our enemies. Why are we giving them (lead) ammunition to fire at us? It destroys our environmental credentials.

The only way we could feasibly argue for exemptions for certain types of firearms/calibres/bores is if we can show that we have obviated the main problem. And even then, we will have a struggle.

 

[25 Sharps]

No shooting organisation is promoting a ban on lead, and nor is any promoting a voluntary phasing out of lead for anything but live quarry shotgun shooting. Certainly not for target shooting, where the lead is generally deposited in a specific area, rather than the wider environment. As for ammo used for deer, stalkers are already changing of their own accord.

Of course attacks on shooting will not stop if lead is banned. Whoever imagined they would? But we can only fight on so many fronts at once, and lead from shotguns used on live quarry is an an avoidable self-inflicted injury that aids our enemies. Why are we giving them (lead) ammunition to fire at us? It destroys our environmental credentials.

The only way we could feasibly argue for exemptions for certain types of firearms/calibres/bores is if we can show that we have obviated the main problem. And even then, we will have a struggle.

You realise that the current HSE consultation is investigating banning ALL lead ammunition in ALL environments, don’t you? It goes way beyond live quarry shooting.

(If not then you’ve not read this whole thread as it’s been posted more than once)

 

[StephenToast]

however the scope of a total ban would be far far bigger than that of wildfowling, which is unique in its choice of firearms and large payload cartridges. You won’t find many game shooters using 3.5inch semi autos with HP steel magnum loads.

Airgun non toxic pellets are also crap and airguns are an important source of income for a lot of gun shops and an introduction to the sport/hobby. Price the beginners out of the sport, airgun, clays and what long term future will it have?

plan for the worst, hope for the best, I guess.

I have been using non lead airgun pellets for over a year now in an old BSA lightening for rabbits around farm buidings. There is nothing wrong with them.

You don't need to use 3.5 inch steel loads.

I buy steel cartridges for my pigeon shooters - the joker cardboard wad 2 3/4 inch SP steel. They are perfectly effective, not ridiculously expensive and have a biodegradable wad.


As I said. If people put the energy they use moaning into doing some actual research and a little leg work they'd realise it's not all doom and gloom.

 

[StephenToast]

Right, as I posted above and quoted below I can to move on with non-lead, I can't prepare myself any further, so do I just give up on the other parts of my hobby?

No of course you don't. Keep working on the parts of your hobby that aren't catered for just as others are doing. Alternatives will arise. Have faith.

 

[StephenToast]

England...because all of the UK is actually the same as England?

Lead for wildfowl still remains legal in Scotland and Northern Ireland outside of wetlands. Not all of us live in England and Wales and not all of us that do shoot wildfowl here but shoot them in Scotland.

Please if you generalise get the facts right! England is not "the UK"

It doesn't really make any difference. Lead for wildfowl in England was banned... Happy now Mr pedant? Guess what. People are still widlfowling there are suitable alternatives, people didn't have to bin their guns.