Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

https://Immersive-optics.com/
grahamch said:
Saw some copper 22 long rifle for sale at the Northern Shooting show at the week end £9 per 100
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Copper-washed, or actually £9 for 50, I suspect.
Have never seen a non-lead .22 round at a competitive price. I was tempted to try some last year, but turned out they were no more accurate than throwing handfuls of gravel and ineffective at usual ranges even if they did hit the target vermin.
 
Whitefront said:
Lead shot is being banned in the UK and Europe? Who'd a thunk it.

Why didn't the orgs see this coming... oh, wait.
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The writing was on the wall when Harradine got up at the BASC wildfowling conference in Cheltenham and said he had shot with both steel and lead, 'and couldn't tell the difference'. Perhaps he missed with everything!
The Swift became a big noise in the Lead Ammunition Group! Talk about 'enemies within'!
The DTI rep at that conference made it clear that no matter what BASC said, lead was going to be banned, but he thought the RSPCA might be concerned about the increased incidence of wounding rather than clean kills.
 
If you actually read the HSE report abd the BASC Summary, whilst it mostly proposing a ban all lead ammunition there are two points being overlooked by most on SD

1) there needs to be an evidence based and proportionate and affordable response to each situation

2) there is scope within the HSE report for their to be specific licensed exemptions where there is not a workable and affordable solution to lead, but where there is an ability to manage and contain the environmental impact.

For those, and their respective associations, who shoot such guns - in particular vintage and historic arms, I do think there is clear scope for working to provide a way to mitigate the effects.

As @Conor O'Gorman points out in the BASC summary, the HSE report are proposals and not yet legislation.

I doubt use on live quarry will be acceptable, but those who shoot for example muzzleloading arms, or small bore target shooting need to find a way where they can clearly demonstrate that use of lead bullets and shot does not further damage the wider environment.
 
Heym SR20 said:
If you actually read the HSE report abd the BASC Summary, whilst it mostly proposing a ban all lead ammunition there are two points being overlooked by most on SD

1) there needs to be an evidence based and proportionate and affordable response to each situation
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It is entirely clear that nobody at the HSE or in Government has the slightest intention of creating evidence-based and proportionate policy, even if you ignore the affordability criterion. The problem arises because these people are attaching more importance to concocted “evidence” than to verifiable facts. Thus, my inert lead bullet fired into a backstop, and thus completely non-bioavailable is treated as equivalent to highly bio-available lead compounds such as TEL, where the lead is in a form that effectively acts to maximise its toxicity in living tissue. The extrapolated data from very small studies is used to produce estimates of large scale harms which have never actually been detected.
Heym SR20 said:
2) there is scope within the HSE report for their to be specific licensed exemptions where there is not a workable and affordable solution to lead, but where there is an ability to manage and contain the environmental impact.
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Point 2) is not consistent with point 1).
Heym SR20 said:
For those, and their respective associations, who shoot such guns - in particular vintage and historic arms, I do think there is clear scope for working to provide a way to mitigate the effects.

As @Conor O'Gorman points out in the BASC summary, the HSE report are proposals and not yet legislation.
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BASC having done such sterling work to advance the cause of screwing over shooters in this regard and advancing these proposals, hardly seems likely to do anything effective to get the damaging elements of the proposals dropped. A lot of this has been driven by the (accidentally or wilfully) ignorant elements of the shooting community supporting half-baked anti-lead ammunition moves, apparently on the basis of extraordinarily stupid presumptions.
Heym SR20 said:
I doubt use on live quarry will be acceptable, but those who shoot for example muzzleloading arms, or small bore target shooting need to find a way where they can clearly demonstrate that use of lead bullets and shot does not further damage the wider environment.
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Having had the ground comprehensively scooped from under them by their shooting organisations and some of their fellow shooters, this will be an uphill struggle. When even their own side rejects verifiable scientific facts in favour of antis’ back of envelope extrapolations and misrepresentations? We are now faced with trying to persuade a wholly irrational audience which is in clear denial of the facts. How do you do that?
 
Apthorpe said:
Copper-washed, or actually £9 for 50, I suspect.
Have never seen a non-lead .22 round at a competitive price. I was tempted to try some last year, but turned out they were no more accurate than throwing handfuls of gravel and ineffective at usual ranges even if they did hit the target vermin.
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Price list just said copper and as my cert is not through yet didnt look for anymore details
 
One question what are the game dealers paying for lead free roe deer at the moment.
HAS IT DOUBLE YET I BET THE ANSWER WILL BE NO.
 
As an aside, there is a hefty premium being paid for steel-shot pigeons by falconers who don't want to risk their precious birds being poisoned. (Interestingly, some shooters show no such qualms when it comes to their own family members, including children).
 
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Conor O'Gorman said:
Perhaps you could identify the source of your information for the above statements?
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THIS IS TAKEN FROM BASC WEB SITE
It is worth bearing in mind that wildfowlers in the UK have been using non-lead cartridges for more than twenty years and that British pigeon shooters have increasingly used steel as the price paid per bird has increased for those taken with non-lead shot.
 
The following very basic timeline of events may be helpful to some posters and viewers.

BASC has been fighting lead ammunition bans since they were first proposed in a 1983 Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution report.

The European Chemicals Agency has been reviewing the use of lead ammunition since 2011 and BASC has been supporting the European Federation of Hunting Associations (FACE) in fighting all resulting proposals.

In 2016, the UK government rejected proposals for a lead ban, after a lengthy campaign by BASC and other shooting organisations, with the Secretary of State stating that the findings of the Lead Ammunition Group did not show that the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing government policy.

In 2021 proposals to ban lead ammunition in the European Union were published along similar lines to what has recently been proposed by the UK Health and Safety Executive (HSE) for England, Wales and Scotland. BASC is supporting FACE in fighting the EU proposals and BASC will fight the HSE proposals.

Specifically, BASC will challenge proposed restrictions where there are no viable alternatives to lead, where socio-economic factors mean a transition isn’t appropriate, and where lead can continue to be used in settings that present negligible or no risk; and we will fight for timelines that are realistic and guided by the sector to ensure that the range of lead-free products and their supply can meet market demands.

An over-riding principle is that further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Also, from reviewing the HSE proposals and based on feedback from SD members and emails from BASC members etc. there is scant evidence given by HSE to justify its proposals for restrictions on target shooting disciplines.

More information in the links below:

BASC statement on lead ammunition restriction proposals

Read our statement in response to publication of restriction proposals on the outdoor use of lead ammunition in England, Scotland and Wales.
basc.org.uk basc.org.uk

basc.org.uk

Lead ammunition restriction proposals: what happens next? - BASC

Read our overview of the Health and Safety Executive's proposed lead ammunition restrictions in England, Wales and Scotland.
basc.org.uk basc.org.uk
 
Whitefront said:
As an aside, there is a hefty premium being paid for steel-shot pigeons by falconers who don't want to risk their precious birds being poisoned. (Interestingly, some shooters show no such qualms when it comes to their own family members, including children).
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I wonder whether the differences between the digestive systems of the two species play a role in this apparent recklessness?
 
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