8% reduction in certificate holders in England and Wales

[Klenchblaize]

If you doubt the reality just ask your local RFD if they have any storage available for rifles you may wish them to sell on your behalf or simply take off your FAC and dispose of. I think you’ll find they are all bursting at the seems with kit they have little hope of moving on.

It’s all incredibly sad but such is the reality of the current situation.

K

 

[25 Sharps]

Like the DVLA?

No, like G4S

 

[One on top of two]

I joined WAGBI. I left BASC .

You old bit haha

 

[Jeff8861]

Basc paints a picture to suit thier goals and aspirations and only portrays thier side of picture. No other facts re the decline just it's down to licensing. Is chris packham in charge of media now as it sounds like he has written that statement. So the minor decline is not down to folk getting old not down to folk moving on not down to medical issues I could go on and on. I suspect basc numbers are down and I wonder how many grants are in the pipeline.
Please basc stop pushing your agenda you sound like the BBC.

 

[Jeff8861]

As they are prioritising renewals why would a slowing of grants lead to such a sharp decline, are we assuming natural wastage of 8% every 2 years that isn’t getting replaced with new grants?

COVID was an issue and has caused a backlog, but also how many people lost ground (and therefore good reason) as they were too scared to go out during lock downs? How many of the 181,000 UK deaths were certificate holders.

To blame this reduction on slower grants seems a bit of a stretch @Conor O'Gorman

I agree totally you could go on and on with reasons, however basc only highlighting one of the reasons why there is a decline. Its clear they have aspirations of wantung to be the sole administrator. Unfortunately for them it won't happen.

 

[25 Sharps]

If you doubt the reality just ask your local RFD if they have any storage available for rifles you may wish them to sell on your behalf or simply take off your FAC and dispose of. I think you’ll find they are all bursting at the seems with kit they have little hope of moving on.

It’s all incredibly sad but such is the reality of the current situation.

K

Yep, mine won’t touch sale or return these days.

I don’t doubt there’s a decline but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all down to a police timescales.

I’d lay money on some giving up due to medical certificates becoming a requirement and due to the complete capitulation over lead free ammunition just making it too complicated to bother.

 

[glasshalffull]

Hard to get youngsters away from their screen's or interested in anything else other than tick-tock and the like for instance from the 100+ membership in our angling club we've only 5 under 16's this year poorest show ever. The club has offered free equipment and open days teaching classes but they're just not interested. Point is country sports are loosing from both ends of the spectrum

 

[Klenchblaize]

Yep, mine won’t touch sale or return these days.

I don’t doubt there’s a decline but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all down to a police timescales.

I’d lay money on some giving up due to medical certificates becoming a requirement and due to the complete capitulation over lead free ammunition just making it too complicated to bother.

I too do not seek to put it all down to Licensing delays. That said there’s no doubt many are not bothering to renew as it’s all “too much of a pain”. And that quote comes from an RFD who hears it every week.

Some will no doubt say this is a good thing as it weeds out the less committed but I doubt such are holders of a nice bit of stalking ground.

The one good thing if you’re hanging in there is its also the best time in the history of UK firearms ownership to purchase a second-hand rifle!

K

 

[JTO]

The statistics showed that as of 31 March 2022, there were 539,212 people in England and Wales who held a firearms and/or a shotgun certificate. Down from 586,351 on 31 March 2020. A total reduction of 47,139 certificate holders.

The breakdown showing FACs and SGCs might show/suggest that a lot of older people with SGCs have died of Covid.

 

[sikamalc]

The whole system has been sliding into an ever increasingly large hole for years. This started years back when they came out with the new computerised central system. The software didn't include all the calibres and that caused an issue straight away.
Since this time the service has gradually declined, and is now at a point of collapse. Most of the old school FEO's have now retired or left. I know for a fact that the one I have dealt with for many years in Kent, is not being replaced.
Plus you have the guidelines sent down from Whitehall, and each chief constable can apply these as he see's fit. However the recent event in Plymouth kicked off the Doctors certificate business, which also throws another spanner into the works.

What is the answer to all of this? For a start nothing to do with G4S
More money needs putting into the system, make all FEO's undertake their DMQ Level 1. At least they will understand what deer stalking is about, and maybe a bit more about calibres.
Raise the cost of the licence to at least help with the cost of running the system. That is going to Pee off some people, but it needs more finance to run effectively.
Have a set of guidelines that are to be followed across the board by all constabularies. There needs to be consistency in the system.
Those applying should be able to apply for their own medical records and produce them when the FEO visits for them to view, along with the security within their home etc.
Make sure that EVERYONE is insured for public liability. I am staggered that on any application to use a firearm that the government does NOT require you to have insurance. Biggest loophole in the firearms system that I know of.

This whole system we have at the minute is a shambles, and frankly it does need a good shake up. Whether the shooting organisations lobbying the authorities will make any difference, I doubt it very much. But where we are at the minute, the whole world seems to have changed, some of the things going on in this world make me wonder how long humans will go on for?

 

[Klenchblaize]

But we are where we are at the minute, the whole world seems to have changed, some of the things going on in this world make me wonder how long humans will go on for?

Relax, the 243 will be around long after you and I are gone!

K

 

[cjm1066]

Look at how we register the sale of a car, can't they develop a similar system for guns.

Shotguns, we can buy and sell freely, does that cause a problem - of course not. The whole administration burden on some one changing from a 243 to a creedmore, serves no purpose.

 

[Klenchblaize]

The whole burden on some one changing from a 243 to a creedmore, serves no purpose.

Couldn’t agree more!

K

 

[Liveonce]

The whole system has been sliding into an ever increasingly large hole for years. This started years back when they came out with the new computerised central system. The software didn't include all the calibres and that caused an issue straight away.
Since this time the service has gradually declined, and is now at a point of collapse. Most of the old school FEO's have now retired or left. I know for a fact that the one I have dealt with for many years in Kent, is not being replaced.
Plus you have the guidelines sent down from Whitehall, and each chief constable can apply these as he see's fit. However the recent event in Plymouth kicked off the Doctors certificate business, which also throws another spanner into the works.

What is the answer to all of this? For a start nothing to do with G4S
More money needs putting into the system, make all FEO's undertake their DMQ Level 1. At least they will understand what deer stalking is about, and maybe a bit more about calibres.
Raise the cost of the licence to at least help with the cost of running the system. That is going to Pee off some people, but it needs more finance to run effectively.
Have a set of guidelines that are to be followed across the board by all constabularies. There needs to be consistency in the system.
Those applying should be able to apply for their own medical records and produce them when the FEO visits for them to view, along with the security within their home etc.
Make sure that EVERYONE is insured for public liability. I am staggered that on any application to use a firearm that the government does NOT require you to have insurance. Biggest loophole in the firearms system that I know of.

This whole system we have at the minute is a shambles, and frankly it does need a good shake up. Whether the shooting organisations lobbying the authorities will make any difference, I doubt it very much. But where we are at the minute, the whole world seems to have changed, some of the things going on in this world make me wonder how long humans will go on for?

The GP reports were a requirement before plymouth in virtually every force.

I was told Kent are three FEO short and office admin short, but no money to employ them.

They want full cost recovery, but as has been said society at large benefit so should contribute.

 

[paultap]

The breakdown showing FACs and SGCs might show/suggest that a lot of older people with SGCs have died of Covid.

Died OF Covid…or WITH Covid, there is a HUGE difference, if you died in a car crash and happen to test positive for Covid at the autopsy, according to the government figures and media figures that we were constantly being fed during the hysteria, the person died OF Covid, which in the above case is clearly nonsense and blatantly untrue.

The same applied to heart attacks, strokes, cancer, and any number of TRUE actual causes of deaths.

Also this “died within 28 days of testing positive for Covid” rubbish that the government insisted on using, totally skewed the true figures.

The ONS (office for national statistics) figures of people who died solely of Covid in the UK with NO other underlying health conditions, shows a markedly different picture, up until march of this year it was about 17500…… on average about 11,000 people normally die in the UK each week.

I take your point on deaths reducing the number of certificates though.

 

[8x57]

@Conor O'Gorman the figures that you quote refer to certificates on issue and their reduction by 8%.
Could this figure simply be due to police forces failing to re-new certificates on time and even outside the automatic 8 week extension therefore certificates have technically expired and are therefore no longer on issue?

I am also mindful of a number of long term shooters who have simply given up because of all the hassle of renewing (simply can't be bothered) and of the decision that some forces took not to accept or process any new applications.

 

[8x57]

The whole system has been sliding into an ever increasingly large hole for years. This started years back when they came out with the new computerised central system. The software didn't include all the calibres and that caused an issue straight away.
Since this time the service has gradually declined, and is now at a point of collapse. Most of the old school FEO's have now retired or left. I know for a fact that the one I have dealt with for many years in Kent, is not being replaced.
Plus you have the guidelines sent down from Whitehall, and each chief constable can apply these as he see's fit. However the recent event in Plymouth kicked off the Doctors certificate business, which also throws another spanner into the works.

What is the answer to all of this? For a start nothing to do with G4S
More money needs putting into the system, make all FEO's undertake their DMQ Level 1. At least they will understand what deer stalking is about, and maybe a bit more about calibres.
Raise the cost of the licence to at least help with the cost of running the system. That is going to Pee off some people, but it needs more finance to run effectively.
Have a set of guidelines that are to be followed across the board by all constabularies. There needs to be consistency in the system.
Those applying should be able to apply for their own medical records and produce them when the FEO visits for them to view, along with the security within their home etc.
Make sure that EVERYONE is insured for public liability. I am staggered that on any application to use a firearm that the government does NOT require you to have insurance. Biggest loophole in the firearms system that I know of.

This whole system we have at the minute is a shambles, and frankly it does need a good shake up. Whether the shooting organisations lobbying the authorities will make any difference, I doubt it very much. But where we are at the minute, the whole world seems to have changed, some of the things going on in this world make me wonder how long humans will go on for?

I agree with some of what you say Malc but absolutely disagree about raising the costs of a certificates. By doing that you will just be rewarding inefficiency and incompetence.
Some forces have accepted change and these tend to be the better forces and deserve praise and reward, however others have totally resisted any change in working practices or adoption of new technology and will continue to do so no matter how much money was thrown at them.

 

[muddy42]

During COVID I had a virtual interview by facetime for my renewal. I was wearing bluetooth headphones. I gave the FEO a tour of the house and security arrangements in the usual way, then showed the FEO each serial number in turn. It worked fine for me, but I can see it might not work for some who are less digitally minded. I would have no problem with the FEO keeping a record of the conversation.

Virtual interviews would save a ton of travel time and cost. I feel there must be other efficiencies to be made if the process was standardized, streamlined and centralised (like the DVLA). Do a study of what a FEO spends time on over a representative period and cut out the inefficiencies.

The GP/mental health check needs to be re-worked and simplified, into something that is accepted by the medical profession.

Moderators are just inert tubes of metal and should be de-licensed.

The Scottish air weapons license shouldn't be needed for FAC or SGC holders.

I could go on.

 

[Tikka250]

Especially as MIND suggests that 1 in 6 people in England suffer from some kind of mental health problem.

Great post @Andrewslater

This contributes to the issues with grants and renewals (I guess to a degree variations also) and the cops can't/won't/don't care find out what the MH problem is resulting in a near blanket ruling for everyone.
The cops will always err on the side of caution when it comes to risk and the safety of the public.
I'd need to check, but I think its also illegal to give/loan/sell a firearm to a person who is mentally unwell/disordered and the cops just won't take that chance of being party to a person in charge of a firearm who is potentially dangerous. (I didn't want to use the monkey with an AK video analogy that was doing the rounds with it being derogatory, but its the best representation I can think of; I apologise if anyone is offended, it's purely for illustrative purpose and not intended to cause offence).

Back to 'MH problem' part... A phobia "an extreme and/or irrational fear" is a mental health problem; it's a specific anxiety and it causes off-the-chart changes in behaviour for those exposed to their phobia; remember chucking a spider in the Mrs lap when you know she's scared of spiders? Now give her a loaded and ready gun and do the same thing...
Moreover, anxiety is a 'bell ringer' for the cops along with depression but the cops don't do anything about phobias it because its not a 'visible' mental health problem or one that impacts everyday life.

...as certificates come up for renewal since the GP report requirements.

Another kink in the chain-mail armour of those applying or renewing! All medical disciplines have consultants and recognised experts in their field of medicine. GP's are exactly what a GP is; a general practioner, a Jack of all trades but a master of none (with limited exception) and are in the most, not qualified to comment on a specialised area of medicine; in this case psychiatry and/or psychology (they are different) and why we have psychiatrists and psychologists. If GP's were qualified he/she wouldn't have to make referrals to these highly specialised areas of medical and behavioural science.

Staying away from actual mental illness/disorder (including personality disdorders) ANYONE AT ANYTIME can be inflicted with anxiety and/or depression. FACT!
We, as certificate holders can too, none of us are immune and its only one event away. It can be a physical event, emotional event, a perceived event or even a body functional event.
A person who presents to their GP with a 'mental health' problem should be referred to a psychiatrist and/or psychology for assessment and treatment; they are the experts in their medical field.

What then happens is the cops ask for a medical report, the GP states that the person has presented with a *generalised anxiety and recommends that he/she isn't suitable for a firearm/renewal.
That scenario is like me telling someone their car is unrepairable when I'm not a qualified mechanic! The cops take the GP recommendation, cause they are the 'expert' and thats the end of the story.

https://www.mind.org.uk/news-campaigns/news/40-per-cent-of-all-gp-appointments-about-mental-health/#:~:text=Current%20initial%20training%20for%20GPs,community%2Dbased%20mental%20health%20services.

*Generalised anxiety doesn't cause radical changes in behaviour, or create a 'psycho' or 'madman' intent on murder.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Personally i think and increase to £250 and a medical for a 10 year ticket would be a bloody good start, sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak!