One for one variation procedure - why?

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mealiejimmy

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I'm hoping that someone can explain the legal basis for the current system the police require to be followed for a one for one variation.
e.g I have a 22 rimfire rifle on my certificate and I want to trade it in to a local RFD and purchase another 22 rimfire rifle from him
At present, it is my understanding that if want to do this without giving the police any money, the following procedure needs to be followed:
a. Dispose of my existing 22 rimfire rifle and inform the police of that fact within 7 days of the disposal
b. Send my existing certificate along with the form applying for a variation for a 22 rimfire rifle to the police and wait for them to process that application and send out a new certificate which contains an authority to purchase a 22 rimfire rifle
c. Go to the RFD, present my new certificate showing the authority to purchase and take possession of the new rifle
I have read (and re-read) the firearms act but cannot find anything close to any legal reasoning for why this procedure is necessary
I really think that this is a part of the firearms licensing process which could be simplified and provide benefits to both gun owners and the police.

Cheers

Bruce
 
Agreed, it's a dumb system.
IMO, once you've got authority to possess a firearm of a certain calibre you should be able to chop and change within that calibre whenever you like, provided it doesn't increase the total number held. And then simply inform your licensing system after the event. Even better would be to have firearms grouped, eg, rimfire / small centrefire / medium centrefire / large centrefire, and be able to chop and change within a group without applying for a variation.
I think asking for greater simplicity would be asking too much though. There's something about the British psyche that just loves wrapping things up in red tape, the more the merrier. Removing or simplifying rules would deprive some people of their very reason for existing!
 
Could be simplified a lot

Sell or trade in current rimfire with another club member against thiers, notify police you have both swapped .22 rimfires

Receive snotty letter in post from police stating this is not correct procedure along with variation form to fill in and request to return it along with certificate for processing

Could have been worse at least Humberside where nice enough to send a letter pointing out the error of his ways rather than kicking his door down while he was away on holiday
 
Agree with the suggestion that it should be a case of permission granted to one a .22 so you should be able to chop and change the rifle as many times as you like as long as the police are notified. The OFO is a waste of police and cert holders time.
 
Is anyone reaching out to the police to help to simplify/streamline the process? bASC etc?

Since my police have gone funny online and turned the phones off, it has been a bit of a menace to get bits sorted.
 
Speaking from the dizzy heights of having the “bandit” “banded system in NI whereby a firearm held for field but not range (why not you might ask) can be exchanged face-to-face at an RFD on a one for one basis providing it is in the same “band”. Great you say, must be super efficient you say and then you read that our licensing authority is in crisis and has triggered a “Gold Command Incident” which informs the otherwise clearly fast asleep Chief Constable that there is, ahem, a little bit of a problem with firearms licensing generally.
🦊🦊
 
as it was exlplained to me when you part with the rifle your reason for owning it ends and then the need to apply for a 1 for 1 variation so they can confirm you still have good reason to replace it. But it is like a lot of the firearms legislation unnecessary bureaucracy.
 
mealiejimmy said:
I'm hoping that someone can explain the legal basis for the current system the police require to be followed for a one for one variation.
e.g I have a 22 rimfire rifle on my certificate and I want to trade it in to a local RFD and purchase another 22 rimfire rifle from him
At present, it is my understanding that if want to do this without giving the police any money, the following procedure needs to be followed:
a. Dispose of my existing 22 rimfire rifle and inform the police of that fact within 7 days of the disposal
b. Send my existing certificate along with the form applying for a variation for a 22 rimfire rifle to the police and wait for them to process that application and send out a new certificate which contains an authority to purchase a 22 rimfire rifle
c. Go to the RFD, present my new certificate showing the authority to purchase and take possession of the new rifle
I have read (and re-read) the firearms act but cannot find anything close to any legal reasoning for why this procedure is necessary
I really think that this is a part of the firearms licensing process which could be simplified and provide benefits to both gun owners and the police.

Cheers

Bruce
Click to expand...
The reason is that the form is laid down in The Firearm Rules 2021 which makes it a legal document; so in order to apply for said variation you have to use the correct form which contains the declarations etc.
 
As with having too many rounds you will committ an offence. If you licensed to hold 500 rounds of say .22 and you have 600 you are in possession of 100 rounds without a certificate.
If you are able to get round purchasing another firearm without the seller realising you dont have a slot you and the seller will committ the offence of carrying out a lllegal transaction. An rfd or retailer will not allow it for obvious reasons. In addition when you notify the licensing department of the transaction they will know that the transaction has been done illegally. As with the extra rounds you will be in possession of a firearm without a certificate. So both buyer and seller in the wrong in regards to the transaction. The buyer being in illegal possession.
Agreed the process needs to change so that you can say px one in and get a new one straight out. Again this issue has been raised with the relevant authority and I believe that it is under review.
 
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You can't even get a replacement mod without a variation, although there is a crafty work around for rimfire. Buy a mod for a sub 12 air rifle which is also rimfire rated, e.g. SAC mods.
 
At least you can own a moderator. Here in Oz legally owned moderators are very few and far between.
I really can't see this changing, ever. It just shows that once there is a regulation in writing, it just can't be undone easily.
Grant.
 
You could just as easily ask why are slots on the licence so calibre specific? does it really matter if it is 38.9mm short, 380 , 38 special? all take the same bullet but you have to have the right bit written. surely to simplify the process, just have small bore CF or Small bore RF ( ie up to .23) med CF (.23 - .308) large CF (above 308) that would make life far easier.
 
nic531 said:
You could just as easily ask why are slots on the licence so calibre specific? does it really matter if it is 38.9mm short, 380 , 38 special? all take the same bullet but you have to have the right bit written. surely to simplify the process, just have small bore CF or Small bore RF ( ie up to .23) med CF (.23 - .308) large CF (above 308) that would make life far easier.
Click to expand...
Slightly different to what you quote. I wanted a 6.5 but wasn't sure what to go for 6.5cm 6.5x55 6.5x47. It's perfectly acceptable to state on form 201 6.5 this then gives you the option to pick what you prefer in that bracket.
 
I like the idea as VSS mentioned to group it into sections with number of firearms one can hold within that category. It should be the responsibility of both the FAC holder and the seller to ensure that one is not buying more firearms that what he/ she is licensed for. So if someone is selling a smallbore rifle to a RFD, then he/ she should be able to buy a new one or swap it, provided they inform the relevant authority within the stipulated 7 days. This will ensure minimal paperwork and an updated inventory of who is having what. Also removing moderators from the ticket would be a welcome change.
 
mealiejimmy said:
I'm hoping that someone can explain the legal basis for the current system the police require to be followed for a one for one variation.
e.g I have a 22 rimfire rifle on my certificate and I want to trade it in to a local RFD and purchase another 22 rimfire rifle from him
At present, it is my understanding that if want to do this without giving the police any money, the following procedure needs to be followed:
a. Dispose of my existing 22 rimfire rifle and inform the police of that fact within 7 days of the disposal
b. Send my existing certificate along with the form applying for a variation for a 22 rimfire rifle to the police and wait for them to process that application and send out a new certificate which contains an authority to purchase a 22 rimfire rifle
c. Go to the RFD, present my new certificate showing the authority to purchase and take possession of the new rifle
I have read (and re-read) the firearms act but cannot find anything close to any legal reasoning for why this procedure is necessary
I really think that this is a part of the firearms licensing process which could be simplified and provide benefits to both gun owners and the police.

Cheers

Bruce
Click to expand...
Its to prevent the royal family and establishment being overthrown by the peasants returning from WW1!
 
Just get rid of it altogether.

You should have authority to own something for the duration of the certificate. The can track what you have thought the usual notification system. It's pretty obvious from your ticket what you can buy or not. So no benefit in the current system or increased risk by simplifying it.

My perspective is that the current system does nothing to enhance public safety, so all it does is increase the workload on the Police for no real benefit.

On a similar argument I would also argue that we should have calibre groupings. In terms of risk there is no difference between 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Creed, 308, 7-08, 270 etc so why does anyone care if I sell my 308 and buy a 270. Just wasting the Police's time again.
 
NullMac said:
Just get rid of it altogether.

You should have authority to own something for the duration of the certificate. The can track what you have thought the usual notification system. It's pretty obvious from your ticket what you can buy or not. So no benefiting the current system or increased risk by simplifying it.

My perspective is that the current system does nothing to enhance public safety, so all it does is increase the workload on the Police for no real benefit.

On a similar argument I would also argue that we should have calibre groupings. In terms of risk there is no difference between 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Creed, 308, 7-08, 270 etc so why does anyone care if I sell my 308 and buy a 270. Just wasting the Police's time again.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. As per my earlier post we have had the “banded system” for some years together with a new computerised FAC grant/renewal/variation system plus the latitude to exchange your game/field rifle at the RFD so long as each is within that band. Wonderful - except it has not worked! Grants can still take a year, variations the same and even enquiries ……………. so bad is the situation that the police (PSNI) have just declared a “Commander Gold Incident“ whatever that is, for Firearms Licensing in NI!
Soooo the question is - what happens now?
🦊🦊
 
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