Pistols for stalking HD

[25 Sharps]

2 situations where a rifle is not ideal.

1) when you are using a dog or dogs to bay a wounded animal. More the case with boar than deer, but a rifle is too powerful for close range situations and real dangers from bullet pass through etc. A pistol bullet has much less energy, but sufficient to penetrate into the vitals without having to worry to much about over penetration.

2) when you are in the thick bush crawling after a wounded deer a scoped rifle is kind of unwealdy, a pistol much less so.

But yes a rifle is in hand and probably best tool for the job. Indeed the best tool is time. After any shot wait a good ten or fifteen minutes, especially if the animal has gone out of sight. If in doubt leave it an hour or two.

Most animals when wounded will quickly seek cover, lie down and die peacefully. Follow up too soon they get really stressed, full of adrenaline and then take off.

And often best stay where you are as you should have a good rest etc, or move sideways so that you can see where the animal may have fallen etc.

I have had a few occasions where follow up shot has been necessary. One was a hind that I shot with a soft RWS 243 bullet. Range was a bit further and a bit windier than I thought. Bullet hit the shoulder and the hind went straight down. Stalker I was with was in a hurry so we went straight up to it. It was lying looking dead so put rifle down etc and started getting ready to gralloch. She regained consciousness, struggled to her feet and set off round the hill out of sight on three legs. We followed her for what seemed an age, but probably no more than 20 minutes and eventually got into a position where I put a bullet in back of her head as she was standing and started swaying.

On examination, the first bullet had failed to adequately penetrate and had done limited damage heart and lungs. There was plenty of blood in the cavity.

I suspect if we had just stayed where we were for 20min she would have died where she first fell.

100% there are situations where they are needed, but this thread was started because it was suggested on about her thread that every person who owned a deer rifle had good reason for owning a pistol, which simply is not the case as this thread proves because the vast majority don’t need one.

I actually think in most situations a short barrelled (12”) pistol calibre underlever would be the best tool for the job, as short as a pistol from the shoulder because your arm is not extended and much easier to shoot accurately out to 10-20 yards. If using say .357 or .44 you have a choice of low power special or full house magnum loads depending on the situation at hand.

Obviously not the best of carrying at the same time as your main rifle but as a dedicated tracking tool I think they’d be good.

 

[Jon P]

.410 is perfect for the situation posted.

.410 also better then a phone / camera

In relation to the photo being taken, it was taken as I walked to the deer to dispatch it, the photo was sent to the deer manager of that land so he could address the fencing there, I also work in the world of of animals welfare and have to mentor some people , a picture says a thousand words , photos are good learning aids.

 

[25 Sharps]

In relation to the photo being taken, it was taken as I walked to the deer to dispatch it, the photo was sent to the deer manager of that land so he could address the fencing there, I also work in the world of of animals welfare and have to mentor some people , a picture says a thousand words , photos are good learning aids.

They are but a photo of the dead deer would have painted the same picture to be fair.

 

[25 Sharps]

You may be happy to use a knife for dispatch but having done it more than a few times...... I am not! This is just one of those situations where personal choice between stalkers should be respected.

Correct.
I would wager the vast majority on here stalk once a month.
There are situations where a HD is required, more so with clients at times. It's all very well people saying you don't need one. They probably never will as they will never be out enough or be in a situation where it's impossible to stand up with a rifle let alone see properly. Leave people who have one to deal with it.

Agreed but the point is the vast majority of stalkers don’t feel the need and therefore realistically don’t have good reason. For some there definitely is a need and they do have good reason, the same as a vet, but not everyone just because they own a deer rifle!

 

[Jon P]

So would you always have the pistol with you? Otherwise you’d be driving home to get that.

Alternatively you could always have the folding .410 in the car as much as the pistol….

In work, it would depend on what I doing, being as I am based from home, I can take the pistol with me when I go to that job.
In relation to deer stalking, I have already said I do not use a HD pistol when stalking, I was replying to a question that was saying. They can’t think of a scenario when a HD pistol would be useful , I replied with it would of been in this instance .

I am amazed how passionate people are on this subject being for or against .

My personal thoughts are , if you need one and can justify to you FEO that you need one and you get it, crack on, I have aHD pistol for work. Do I want to take it stalking , no, I carry enough crap with me already.

I also would not advocate leaving any firearm in a vehicle unattended for long periods on the off chance you need it as a back up.

 

[25 Sharps]

In work, it would depend on what I doing, being as I am based from home, I can take the pistol with me when I go to that job.
In relation to deer stalking, I have already said I do not use a HD pistol when stalking, I was replying to a question that was saying. They can’t think of a scenario when a HD pistol would be useful , I replied with it would of been in this instance .

I am amazed how passionate people are on this subject being for or against .

My personal thoughts are , if you need one and can justify to you FEO that you need one and you get it, crack on, I have aHD pistol for work. Do I want to take it stalking , no, I carry enough crap with me already.

I also would not advocate leaving any firearm in a vehicle unattended for long periods on the off chance you need it as a back up.

Neither would I, which was kind of my point about whether you always carry a pistol with you stalking, that you have now said you don’t want to.

I have no issue with pistols for HD with those who have a genuine need, it just those who have a ‘want’ where there really is no need and then vilify those who say it’s probably not required.

 

[Jon P]

They are but a photo of the dead deer would have painted the same picture to be fair.

Not really, I got lots of pictures of dead / dying animals on my phones, This picture shows you can’t save them all. And shows new staters in work of what you may be called out too, May not be a deer, could be a sheep or a cow. Photo of a dead deer does laid on a grassy field does not give the full picture.

 

[25 Sharps]

Not really, I got lots of pictures of dead / dying animals on my phones, This picture shows you can’t save them all. And shows new staters in work of what you may be called out too, May not be a deer, could be a sheep or a cow. Photo of a dead deer does laid on a grassy field does not give the full picture.

I meant that specific deer, hanging from that specific fence, just dead, would paint exactly the same picture, it just wouldn’t have hung there as long with someone approaching it

 

[Jon P]

I meant that specific deer, hanging from that specific fence, just dead, would paint exactly the same picture, it just wouldn’t have hung there as long with someone approaching it

You can get a lot of photos with dead animals hanging off a fence- live ones get people to realise what the real job involves dealing with animals, A lot try to come into my type of job “ Cos they love animals” . Unfortunately that don’t work.

I quite quick with a phone, original pic was further away back, have zoomed in to post photo and original was to large format.

On humane grounds, (hanging time) it could be said it would of been quicker death to be shot from 10 ft away with a pistol then me finishing it off with a knife . But we would be going be going around in a big circle, like s lot of posts on SD .

 

[25 Sharps]

You can get a lot of photos with dead animals hanging off a fence- live ones get people to realise what the real job involves dealing with animals, A lot try to come into my type of job “ Cos they love animals” . Unfortunately that don’t work.

I quite quick with a phone, original pic was further away back, have zoomed in to post photo and original was to large format.

On humane grounds, (hanging time) it could be said it would of been quicker death to be shot from 10 ft away with a pistol then me finishing it off with a knife . But we would be going be going around in a big circle, like s lot of posts on SD .

As you say if they don’t realise they’re going to have to deal with animals in distress and not all animals in distress can be saved so they will have to despatch some, they’re in the wrong job.

Also agree on the pistol vs knife in that situation, although if the road wasn’t there a rifle would do the job from a little distance just as well.

 

[Dickie]

This is like a pantomime. Oh yes you can, Oh no you can't.

 

[Leupsak]

I have to admit I rarely use my pistol when out on my own but am often out when I get called for HD as I'm out every day, I got called out by the police at 05:00 and 05:40 yesterday and on both occasions a knife would have been dangerous and a rifle or shotgun a non starter.
1st job was a deer under a vehicle and the 2nd was a deer in an engine compartment of a car sat on the drive, 2” 410 cartridge from a short barrelled pistol every time.

I was a slaughterman for years and trained at veterinary college in large animal handling, if you think a knife or rifle are appropriate for the situations HD are called for then you are either stupid, nieve or lack training or the ability to risk assess hazards appropriately.

I have the scars of antlers and pig tusks to prove the point from my days as a teenager with more spunk than sense

 

[Leupsak]

This is like a pantomime. Oh yes you can, Oh no you can't.

A lot of want to be HD operatives think they can until they realise they cant.

Just because you have a gun does not mean you have the knowledge, training and experience for HD, regardless of the tools at hand.

Call out HD is vastly different from in the field dispatch of a shot animal and only you know your ground and need

 

[Dickie]

A lot of want to be HD operatives think they can until they realise they cant.

Just because you have a gun does not mean you have the knowledge, training and experience for HD, regardless of the tools at hand.

If you can show good reason and the appropriate authorities are happy then it shouldn't be a problem.
If later down the line things weren't as expected then you can sell said pistol or if there's not a buyer surrender it to plod.

 

[Leupsak]

As you say if they don’t realise they’re going to have to deal with animals in distress and not all animals in distress can be saved so they will have to despatch some, they’re in the wrong job.

Also agree on the pistol vs knife in that situation, although if the road wasn’t there a rifle would do the job from a little distance just as well.

FYI
A knife is not seen as a safe tool, under H&S hierarchy if you can do it without entering the hazard zone then you do, a knife is too intamate only likely to get you cut.

As for “can be saved”, most of my call outs are as an oncall vet for the police or RSPCA and the only outcome is death and for muntjac it can only be death.

 

[Matt J]

Has anyone suggested a bayonet yet??

 

[Heym SR20]

Has anyone suggested a bayonet yet??

Probably not a stupid idea. After all designed so that you can stick a sharp and pointy thing into something that is trying to kill but you still keep a distance between you. However stalking rifles are not built like battle rifles which can withstand such abuse - well the old Mauser and lee Enfields can.

 

[Leupsak]

Has anyone suggested a bayonet yet??

Even the armed forces didn’t see a bayonet as a viable option unless there was no other option, we have safe, realistic options.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

FYI
A knife is not seen as a safe tool, under H&S hierarchy if you can do it without entering the hazard zone then you do, a knife is too intamate only likely to get you cut.

As for “can be saved”, most of my call outs are as an oncall vet for the police or RSPCA and the only outcome is death and for muntjac it can only be death.

Bollocks to health and safety!

I’ll carry on with my knife ta very much

 

[Leupsak]

Bollocks to health and safety!

I’ll carry on with my knife ta very much

You crack on mate

Do as you wish when stalking but don't use that line if called out for HD to represent another organisation it just demonstrates your lack of knowledge, training and experience. I have personally had 2 stalkers taken off the local police HD list for demonstrating their lack of understanding. One of them cut a firefighter who was holding a deer while the stalker/HD operative attempted to cut the deers neck, that was a hell of a court case