Wild Venison Market

[Heym SR20]

If it didn‘t go via my hands into the packet, I can rest assured that I am not the cause of any lead poisoning anyone, anywhere might be suffering. This is neither to say that I agree with any inference or suggestion that all or even most ‘leukaemia and dementia etc etc’ is caused by lead ingestion. All a bit academic now, but in any event, apart from anything else it wouldn't have made good business sense to be anything less than scrupulous about this aspect, any more than eg offering customers rutting stag venison - indeed I went out of my way to educate customers on that one, believing as I still do that to do so does more to put people off venison for life than any perceived danger of lead ingestion by careless handling, butchering or inclusion of same. Tastes may indeed vary as indeed has been debated here in the past, but knowing what I know from my own experiences and those of others, why would I even contemplate taking the risk?

It may be borne in mind too, that whilst lead shot and projectiles may be banned in DK, this is not to say that it is not still in use here and there, as will certainly still be the case here for years to come.

By the way K, a clean chest-shot carcase having been despatched with a suitably constructed bullet driven at moderate speed also can pass muster; to avoid damage to all the main quarters is the best way of beginning to maximise carcase yield, but there is more than one means of achieving this.

Agree with a lot of what you say. But there is now plenty of evidence to illustrate that elevated levels of lead and other heavy metals in your blood is strongly linked to cancers. And the lead will come from dome from of environmental source. 25 mg of lead per litre is considered to be toxic. Studies I am referring show as little 25 nmols per litre is sufficient (m is 10-3, n is 10-9 and molecular weight of lead is 207 grams per mol).

Further studies of patients with secondary Leukaemia who are on palliative care and have little time to live, have been given a chelation drugs to remove the heavy metals, which is then followed by chemo to treat the cancer. The vast majority of patients are alive and well 18 months post treatment with no sign of the disease.

The group behind the work have now been funded to take this through full trials and bring it to the market.

How do you get lead into the system. By breathing, ingesting or adsorbing lead particles and lead salts through the skin.

Studies in pigs have demonstrated that ingested lead from contaminated venison ends up in the pigs blood stream within a matter of hours. Further studies of inuit and native Americans who eat a lot of game have elevated levels of lead in their blood, and goes some way to explain higher cancer rates, deliquency, depression etc.

Most of these studies are pretty recent - as in only published in the last few years, but there are records in the war department from time of first war where real concerns were raised over exposure of lead ammunition to ammunition manufacturers and soldiers. This info was quickly buried.

I have shot a lot of deer, and eaten a lot of game and venison all shot with lead ammunition.

There are now very good alternatives to lead in both shotguns and rifles so why continue to an avoidable risk.

And with rifles on deer, a monolithic bullet leaves a much cleaner carcass, and if it does break fragments are easily visible. With a lead bullet a large proportion of the lead remains in the animal as very small if not microscopic particles. Yes a lot will be removed with gralloch but a lot is still left in the meat.

Yes there is still work to do with rimfires.

 

[Heym SR20]

Agree with a lot of what you say. But there is now plenty of evidence to illustrate that elevated levels of lead and other heavy metals in your blood is strongly linked to cancers. And the lead will come from dome from of environmental source. 25 mg of lead per litre is considered to be toxic. Studies I am referring show as little 25 nmols per litre is sufficient (m is 10-3, n is 10-9 and molecular weight of lead is 207 grams per mol).

Further studies of patients with secondary Leukaemia who are on palliative care and have little time to live, have been given a chelation drugs to remove the heavy metals, which is then followed by chemo to treat the cancer. The vast majority of patients are alive and well 18 months post treatment with no sign of the disease.

The group behind the work have now been funded to take this through full trials and bring it to the market.

How do you get lead into the system. By breathing, ingesting or adsorbing lead particles and lead salts through the skin.

Studies in pigs have demonstrated that ingested lead from contaminated venison ends up in the pigs blood stream within a matter of hours. Further studies of inuit and native Americans who eat a lot of game have elevated levels of lead in their blood, and goes some way to explain higher cancer rates, deliquency, depression etc.

Most of these studies are pretty recent - as in only published in the last few years, but there are records in the war department from time of first war where real concerns were raised over exposure of lead ammunition to ammunition manufacturers and soldiers. This info was quickly buried.

I have shot a lot of deer, and eaten a lot of game and venison all shot with lead ammunition.

There are now very good alternatives to lead in both shotguns and rifles so why continue to an avoidable risk.

And with rifles on deer, a monolithic bullet leaves a much cleaner carcass, and if it does break fragments are easily visible. With a lead bullet a large proportion of the lead remains in the animal as very small if not microscopic particles. Yes a lot will be removed with gralloch but a lot is still left in the meat.

Yes there is still work to do with rimfires.

And just to demonstrate my credentials, I have spent the last 25 years advising and investing into technology companies - typically five or six a year. And I have done this as a partner in various regulated corporate finance firms, and working with business angels and venture capital houses. About half have been medical, the rest engineering and about 25% in mainland Europe.

The group of scientists behind the above technologies were my clients for a period of five years. (I had to withdraw thanks to Brexit and being no longer legally allowed to advise an EU registered company as I am only regulated in the UK and we lost our equivalence status - but that is another matter)

As an advisor you have get fully in depth with understanding the technologies and science - much of it still theoretical or unproven. Whilst I am not a scientist or a medic many of my colleagues are.

During this period I really got to understand from worlds leading scientists in the field how lead fundamentally buggers up the immune system and thus leaves you open to infection and mutations which lead to cancers.

The key science is in this paper published in the American Journal of Haematology based on work at the MD Anderson Cancer Clinic.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.25731

We expect this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Challenge as always is the might of the large drug companies not letting new entrants into the market.

 

[Freeforester]

Quite so, whatever works for you is fine by me, (a non Inuit) but removal of eg the head of a head-shot deer somewhat substantially reduces the risk, at an educated guess. The rest I’m mostly content to take my chances with (mRNA vaccines excepted), other risks would represent greater dangers, I feel. YMMV, but it’s a zero sum game in the end.

 

[scrumbag]

I just see carcass that are shot badly, stored inappropriately and prepared poorly and instead of taking responsibility and disposing of it correctly some people insist on trying to get some quick cash. I also blame the game dealers for not being harder on it and rejecting them and telling people to go away and get training and take some pride in what they do.

What training though? Show me a link where I can click on it and go and get training on shooting, gralloching and lardering deer.... I don't think it exists in the UK.

 

[scrumbag]

£1 a kg up north this week!

Still getting £2.20 in NW Englandshire though, and they can’t buy enough to supply the demand! Go figure

Population density and cost of diesel about 80% of the UK population are in England. Just about 10% in Scotland, only about 5% in Wales and about 2.% in NI

 

[scrumbag]

I think there are few factors which provide a cap on venison prices.

1) Large estates and (in Scotland) issues with being fined for lack of deer culled (Also kind of a fine in England if your forestry grant is hit due to too much deer damage)
- So what does that mean: So many deer will go into a larder every year and a low price can be tolerated (Scale helps too)
2) Farmed deer is a consistent product that turns up on time. No dealers in the UK (I don't think) can match the scale or consistency that larger continental dealers can or an NZ head shooting operation
3) Recreational stalking
- I think we all acknowledge that recreational stalking is a bigger and bigger part of UK deer control. Speaking personally, I don't want a fallow carcass (unless very small). It's too big, I can't handle the butchery or storage in my flat. Roe and Muntjac, great, happily take those as I can handle them. A large deer though, the only thing I want to know is that it is going into the food chain and not to waste. I don't care if nothing is paid for it. Literally, I'll struggle to use it, so if someone else can, great. If there's a payment for it, so much the better, anything above zero is a bonus.

So, I think if stalkers want to understand why the venison price is where it is, we have to understand there are 3 groups of very low cost producers for game dealers that they are competing against.

 

[VSS]

What training though? Show me a link where I can click on it and go and get training on shooting, gralloching and lardering deer.... I don't think it exists in the UK.

If you want training on the gralloching and lardering side of things, contact @flyingfisherman on here. He runs an excellent course, where you'll get the opportunity to process numerous carcasses of three different species in a day, using a variety of techniques, taking them from the field to fully lardered and ready for game dealer collection.
Well worth it, imo.

 

[scrumbag]

If you want training on the gralloching and lardering side of things, contact @flyingfisherman on here. He runs an excellent course, where you'll get the opportunity to process numerous carcasses of three different species in a day, using a variety of techniques, taking them from the field to fully lardered and ready for game dealer collection.
Well worth it, imo.

I (hopefully) don't need thanks, got there eventually but not easy.

@flyingfisherman do you have a website? Advertise? Does your website have location, good contact details and a course dates?

(And that's a huge problem for a lot of stalking related courses, finding the info on web...)

 

[Pete6.5]

What training though? Show me a link where I can click on it and go and get training on shooting, gralloching and lardering deer.... I don't think it exists in the UK.

There are elements of training in DSC 1. But I don't think you can learn to be good at anything in a day or two of training. But I have guys that deer stalk for me and have been training them for a few years and they are getting good at gralloching. Let's call it a apprenticeship with on going training just like I did when become a heating engineer.
We all know anyone that offers a day course to learn anything is just providing you with a certificate and that on its own doesn't make you skilled at what you do.
I've said this loads on here (there are no short cuts to gaining a skill)

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Do people not Read anymore?

20 years ago i learned how to gut a deer by reading a book by Richard Proir!

Why do people need to do a training course to do something so basic?

Are there that many stalkers our there who can not do the fundamental basics?

best the hang their heads in shame!

You should not be killing an animal, if you can not treat the final product with the respect it deserves!

Between my L1 and L2 i shot 40 animals to make sure my technique was spot on!

 

[scrumbag]

There are elements of training in DSC 1. But I don't think you can learn to be good at anything in a day or two of training. But I have guys that deer stalk for me and have been training them for a few years and they are getting good at gralloching. Let's call it a apprenticeship with on going training just like I did when become a heating engineer.
We all know anyone that offers a day course to learn anything is just providing you with a certificate and that on its own doesn't make you skilled at what you do.
I've said this loads on here (there are no short cuts to gaining a skill)

In some ways you are right. The problem is, for recreational stalkers they don't have that opportunity to have regular practice.

As a recreational stalker you go out and shoot a deer.
Someone (guide perhaps) shows you how to gralloch
You then don't shoot a deer for several months
Finally you shoot another deer "Now what do I do?"
This deer is of course under field conditions which are not where you want to be having a go and trying to remember something from a few months ago.

I agree, experience is great but the "apprenticeship" method you described is just not available, relevant or applicable to the majority of deer stalkers we have coming into the sport.

A course where you get some hands on experience first before the real thing would be really beneficial. Yes it would be a bit artificial but when learning to drive you don't go out on busy roads first, you start off in car parks and quiet back streets first.

 

[Pete6.5]

In some ways you are right. The problem is, for recreational stalkers they don't have that opportunity to have regular practice.

As a recreational stalker you go out and shoot a deer.
Someone (guide perhaps) shows you how to gralloch
You then don't shoot a deer for several months
Finally you shoot another deer "Now what do I do?"
This deer is of course under field conditions which are not where you want to be having a go and trying to remember something from a few months ago.

I agree, experience is great but the "apprenticeship" method you described is just not available, relevant or applicable to the majority of deer stalkers we have coming into the sport.

A course where you get some hands on experience first before the real thing would be really beneficial. Yes it would be a bit artificial but when learning to drive you don't go out on busy roads first, you start off in car parks and quiet back streets first.

That is all fine and I think it's great to do some stalking as a hobby but then you should understand your level of experience and then not sell sub standard carcasses in a commercial way. As soon as you take money you become professional and should except all that comes with that.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Having recently joined a few Gents on a site where Fallow is our main quarry, I was a bit critical of the lead-Stalker insisting on Fallow carcasses being collected un-grallached, and taken to a central RV point for a suspended and supervised gralloch. Even if that means that a few hours pass before the gralloch. The reasoning is that his Game-dealer has a good relationship with him and he always (only) supplies top-quality carcasses. This long-lasting relationship results in Fallow carcasses being taken by the Game-dealer at times of the year where most others offered to him are rejected due to over-supply in the market. So the message here is to supply top carcases to get yours moving through the supply chain. Anything badly shot/damaged and any Muntjac is shared between the Stalkers for our own private consumption, and never presented to the Game-dealer.
In addition to that I learned that Roe sells at a better price than Fallow, as the venison from most Roe shot in the UK is exported to Germany, where there is higher demand and therefore it commands a much higher price.
,
(I will now wait for the critical posts about delaying the gralloch....yes I do now about 'Best Practise' and yes, I do understand the potential food hygiene implication - but on this site, its not my call )

 

[scrumbag]

Do people not Read anymore?

20 years ago i learned how to gut a deer by reading a book by Richard Proir!

Why do people need to do a training course to do something so basic?

Are there that many stalkers our there who can not do the fundamental basics?

best the hang their heads in shame!

You should not be killing an animal, if you can not treat the final product with the respect it deserves!

Between my L1 and L2 i shot 40 animals to make sure my technique was spot on!

Is the Richard Prior book any good? I must admit having bought several books on fieldsports as guides I don't think there is one instance where I've found them to be any real use bar as fireside reading. And I have to say I probably wouldn't buy another as a guide (Fireside reading, different story).

I think also we have to remember the knowledge base people are working with. As probably one of the younger members of the stalking directory being in my 30s, I didn't even do animal dissection at school. Look at food, most chicken thighs these days are sold boned and with the skin off.

I got through my DSC2 by watching youtube how to vids and reading some of the DSC2 course material. If I could have gone on a how to gralloch course, I'd have signed up in a heartbeat.

What worked in the past, even if well, I'm afraid isn't applicable anymore.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Having recently joined a few Gents on a site where Fallow is our main quarry, I was a bit critical of the lead-Stalker insisting on Fallow carcasses being collected un-grallached, and taken to a central RV point for a suspended and supervised gralloch. Even if that means that a few hours pass before the gralloch. The reasoning is that his Game-dealer has a good relationship with him and he always (only) supplies top-quality carcasses. This long-lasting relationship results in Fallow carcasses being taken by the Game-dealer at times of the year where most others offered to him are rejected due to over-supply in the market. So the message here is to supply top carcases to get yours moving through the supply chain. Anything badly shot/damaged and any Muntjac is shared between the Stalkers for our own private consumption, and never presented to the Game-dealer.
In addition to that I learned that Roe sells at a better price than Fallow, as the venison from most Roe shot in the UK is exported to Germany, where there is higher demand and therefore it commands a much higher price.
,
(I will now wait for the critical posts about delaying the gralloch....yes I do now about 'Best Practise' and yes, I do understand the potential food hygiene implication - but on this site, its not my call )

I delay gralloch reds all the time, I cannot gralloch animals on my permission because of a high number of women riding horses all day, so when the deer a shot winched on the trailer 20 minute drive home, off with a loader, suspended gralloch and in the colder, that’s the way it has to be. Also that means no bloody great bomb craters required to bury the graloch!

Quickest cleanest way to do it, when dealing with big animals!

 

[scrumbag]

That is all fine and I think it's great to do some stalking as a hobby but then you should understand your level of experience and then not sell sub standard carcasses in a commercial way. As soon as you take money you become professional and should except all that comes with that.

Pete, I agree we should look after carcasses.

But how do people who want to get better improve if they aren't taught? And we know the apprenticeship route isn't applicable to anything like enough people?

The problem is the chance for people to get better isn't really there. And it is a big problem, otherwise this thread wouldn't be here.

Scrummy

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Pete, I agree we should look after carcasses.

But how do people who want to get better improve if they aren't taught? And we know the apprenticeship route isn't applicable to anything like enough people?

The problem is the chance for people to get better isn't really there. And it is a big problem, otherwise this thread wouldn't be here.

Scrummy

The problem is stalking has become too popular, I keep referring back to what it was like 20 years ago, 20 years ago, everybody had ground, everybody just got on and did what they did there was nobody going to poach your permission, like there is nowadays!

Now, every man and his dog has a firearm certificate There are a lot more people now who are ill equipped, with little, or no knowledge about what they have learnt in their level one if they’ve done it and they’re out, it’s a recipe for disaster, and you wonder why Game Dealer is have very little tolerance of poor quality carcasses!

Game Dealer collected from me last Thursday evening, collected six immaculate red deer for me, and the shite that was in the back of his van from another Stalker, who I know from up the road was an absolute disgrace hence why I am now the furthest pick up into Norfolk, he has!

 

[willie_gunn]

Is the Richard Prior book any good? I must admit having bought several books on fieldsports as guides I don't think there is one instance where I've found them to be any real use bar as fireside reading. And I have to say I probably wouldn't buy another as a guide (Fireside reading, different story).

I think also we have to remember the knowledge base people are working with. As probably one of the younger members of the stalking directory being in my 30s, I didn't even do animal dissection at school. Look at food, most chicken thighs these days are sold boned and with the skin off.

I got through my DSC2 by watching youtube how to vids and reading some of the DSC2 course material. If I could have gone on a how to gralloch course, I'd have signed up in a heartbeat.

What worked in the past, even if well, I'm afraid isn't applicable anymore.

Richard Prior's books are classics, but representative of their day.

Far better these days to read something like The Complete Deer Stalker by our own @South of the M4

Available: - A practical Deer Stalking book

My book was published a little over a year ago, and have enjoyed sales of just over 1000, which I’m happy about. Many of the PMs I’ve had have been from new stalkers. They’ve said the book has helped them enormously in starting out, which pleases me immensely. The ‘Stalkers Year’, ‘After the...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Alternatively have a browse through the section in the Best Practice Guide on Meat Hygiene

There is only so much you can get from books (and YouTube), though, and nothing beats "hands on" experience in the field. That way, particularly with a guide or mentor, you can also learn about how things might appear when they are not okay.

 

[scrumbag]

The problem is stalking has become too popular, I keep referring back to what it was like 20 years ago, 20 years ago, everybody had ground, everybody just got on and did what they did there was nobody going to poach your permission, like there is nowadays!

Now, every man and his dog has a firearm certificate There are a lot more people now who are ill equipped, with little, or no knowledge about what they have learnt in their level one if they’ve done it and they’re out, it’s a recipe for disaster, and you wonder why Game Dealer is have very little tolerance of poor quality carcasses!

Game Dealer collected from me last Thursday evening, collected six immaculate red deer for me, and the shite that was in the back of his van from another Stalker, who I know from up the road was an absolute disgrace hence why I am now the furthest pick up into Norfolk, he has!

I don't think people participating is a problem. Participation is good for our sport and helps us politically.

We do need to give people who don't come from stalking backgrounds or networks of friends chance to improve their skills though. That is rather lacking.

Scrummy

 

[willie_gunn]

The problem is stalking has become too popular, I keep referring back to what it was like 20 years ago, 20 years ago, everybody had ground, everybody just got on and did what they did there was nobody going to poach your permission, like there is nowadays!

Now, every man and his dog has a firearm certificate There are a lot more people now who are ill equipped, with little, or no knowledge about what they have learnt in their level one if they’ve done it and they’re out, it’s a recipe for disaster, and you wonder why Game Dealer is have very little tolerance of poor quality carcasses!

Game Dealer collected from me last Thursday evening, collected six immaculate red deer for me, and the shite that was in the back of his van from another Stalker, who I know from up the road was an absolute disgrace hence why I am now the furthest pick up into Norfolk, he has!

And 20 years ago not enough deer were shot......