This is why I don’t like chest shots.

For your edification @Sharpie:


I’ve got a bunch of gralloch photos that I can send you if you like.

Once you’ve worked it out it is a game changer, as evidenced by the number of guys on here who have adopted the shot and spoken up about the effectiveness.
I've noticed my natural aim Is right In where the Hilar Is placed Considering how much Its praised Its a shot I'm considering despite the advice of the regular heart shot my friends recommend.
.
I'm young I'm 95lbs Its more so for the future I'm thinking when I'm eventually doing this alone, Its much better for myself to learn a shot that Is way more likely to drop the deer ASAP, and our reds arent even "big" and there double the weight of me they really need to be dropped where Ideally they stand dragging isn't really going to be an option In most scenarios.
 
@Sol the hilar stuff is all on here (several times over), but tradition being what it is there’s always doubt from some.

A (very) layman summary is HERE on the NZ forum, the video towards the end of the thread shows the gralloch.

It’s no medical literature that’s for sure, but the mechanics stack up in the field.

A great book to read if you can find 2nd hand copies on Amazon or eBay.

Red Deer in NZ

Roger Lentle is a Professor of Biomechanics or some such, anyone wanting to argue about hilar is welcome to contact Roger, he’s still going. The info is broadly common to all regions where red deer are present, not just NZ.
 
@Sol the hilar stuff is all on here (several times over), but tradition being what it is there’s always doubt from some.

A (very) layman summary is HERE on the NZ forum, the video towards the end of the thread shows the gralloch.

It’s no medical literature that’s for sure, but the mechanics stack up in the field.

A great book to read if you can find 2nd hand copies on Amazon or eBay.

Red Deer in NZ

Roger Lentle is a Professor of Biomechanics or some such, anyone wanting to argue about hilar is welcome to contact Roger, he’s still going. The info is broadly common to all regions where red deer are present, not just NZ.
It works on Moose and Elk as well , no surprise .

AB
 
99% of our Sambar are killed through the shoulder.
There have been more than a few "neck shots" on the big deer that have delivered the BRUMBY shot effect that flattens the deer which recovers. Called the brumby shot as the old boys used to shoot wild horses through the neck to knock them out thus giving them time to rope them.
They recovered as the shot is taken through the neck above the bone and the wound (303 fmj) is a pencil hole.
 
That report shows a total cluelessness/recklessness by the hunter:

Interviews with the child’s parents found no history of traditional exposures for O157 infection. The child’s father provided information regarding the deer hunt and venison processing. The deer was shot (but not immediately killed) at noon in mid-November in Vermont. After tracking the wounded animal for 2 hours, the hunters located and field dressed the dead animal. An abdominal gunshot wound had resulted in intestinal rupture; no intact internal organs were visible when the deer was eviscerated in the field. No rinsing of the intestinal cavity occurred, as is general practice among deer hunters. The deer was dragged to a truck, brought back to camp, and hung outside overnight before being transported from southern Vermont to Connecticut. The deer was again hung outdoors overnight. Ambient air temperature ranged from 0°C-13°C during this period. The following morning the deer was skinned and cut into large sections. Individual sections were further cut, trimmed, and rinsed under running water before being packaged and stored in a home freezer. The tenderloin was rinsed, placed on a clean plate, refrigerated, and grilled outdoors that evening.
I agree Leaving a deer or any game hanging at 13 C is just asking for trouble and is careless and reckless in my opinion. Overnight where the temps were more than likely closer to 0 would be fine as ive hung moose for a week or so at this temperature. however I would have skinned it immediately to aide the meat in cooling down faster.
It takes at least 71C to kill E Coli by cooking. By which temperature it is no longer blue, rare or pink, just well cooked all the way through.

Do US hunters know much about carcase inspection, never mind at the level that a trained hunter here should ? It won't show E coli contamination, that is down to best practice to minimise the chances. However if there is E coli, specifically 0157 it can be devastating. So far the world's worst outbreak was traced to a Scottish butcher, at least twenty died from it, young and old, and many more extremely sick.

One day I was butcher of the year .. then the next I was the mass murderer of the year; JOHN BARR ON THE E COLI CRISIS WHICH CLAIMED THE LIVES OF 20 CUSTOMERS. - Free Online Library

E. Coli (Scotland) (Hansard, 28 November 1996)

Just read up on it and yes 160 degrees F is no longer rare or pink lol. However, it seems it could be done at a lower temp possibly if it was smoked but I don't see him smoking tenderloins lol. As far as US hunters and carcass inspections go we only can kill our animals for personal consumption and most I know do indeed wash the carcass. I have eaten numerous of deer growing up where the poop bag was punctured accidentally while gutting the deer an no one I know has gotten sick from it or a gut shot deer so this leads me to wonder how long the gut contents have to be in contact with the meat, as well as have we all just been lucky? I seriously doubt its we were just lucky. Also, if we throw away a deer because it was gut shot that is considered Wanton waste and is against the law to where you will be fined and could lose your hunting license in some states. Let alone just total disregard and disrespectful to the animal because you as the hunter screwed up or something happened after the shot, and instead of dealing with it you just say well its a waste and throw the animal away. That story of the butcher seems like a freak accident and was extremely sad to hear about.
 
I've noticed my natural aim Is right In where the Hilar Is placed Considering how much Its praised Its a shot I'm considering despite the advice of the regular heart shot my friends recommend.
.
I'm young I'm 95lbs Its more so for the future I'm thinking when I'm eventually doing this alone, Its much better for myself to learn a shot that Is way more likely to drop the deer ASAP, and our reds arent even "big" and there double the weight of me they really need to be dropped where Ideally they stand dragging isn't really going to be an option In most scenarios.
Hi Sol, if the Reds in SW Scotland are only double you're weight or 190 lbs something has changed radically since I shot Reds 15 years ago in that area. A hind maybe but never shot a stag under 18 stone (252 lbs).
 
Hi Sol, if the Reds in SW Scotland are only double you're weight or 190 lbs something has changed radically since I shot Reds 15 years ago in that area. A hind maybe but never shot a stag under 18 stone (252 lbs).
Still tiddlers compared to a proper lowland beast! Try 30 stone….. 😛
 
This is why I dont particularly like chest shots, its not theoretical its purely practical and it actually happened to me, its not a “ what if “ scenario.
Its a record of what I experienced over a single weekend with a group of ( mostly) experienced Continental hunters, all of them hopelessly imbued with the “ chest shot only” ethos.
They shot quite well, I had the binocular on the animal for every one of the losses and saw the impact, but finding them was beyond us and I really hate the waste.
3 weeks ago I had some visitors to look after, full day out Friday, Saturday and Sunday, 2 parties and 5 guests in all, 3 of them used one of my rifles
( .270 and 6.5x55) and 2 brought their own, K95’s in 7x57R and 7X65R.
The first 2 guests on Friday AM were experienced hunters, both have extensive experience and opted for the walk and stalk option. We managed to spot and stalk a pricket and first shot was good, into the throat with the animal face on. It dropped and the carcass showed a little damage to a shoulder and some green contamination but a lot less mess than there might have been so I’m happy enough.
Second man up, we spotted another pricket and as we made up our minds we saw a nice 6 pointer behind, both deer walking towards us, sticks up, man on the rifle and wait for the opportunity…3/4 on shot, the deer dropped, skidded forward and ran into the trees with a leg swinging. No indication at the shot site, no blood, no deer and no sign to be found despite a diligent search. I had no dog due to being out for a few days and staying in a hotel. What the deer ran in to was heavy thicket stage Sitka planted on drills, no fun to crawl about in.
A break and a change of pace, down into the mature timber and I spotted a nice solid 8 pointer, the guest pinned him with a high shoulder shot and that was the end of their outing, 3 shots, 2 deer in the car and 1 in the trees.
Off to the weigh and pay, the pricket is graded “B” , shoulder damage, the bigger animal “C” due saddle damage.
I hunted that afternoon with my own 3 guests, 2 experienced and 1 absolute beginner but we had no success despite seeing plenty. We even spent a while looking for the lost one from this morning with no luck.
Saturday AM and as we drive in I spotted a good stag crossing an open clearfell area, “one of you needs to shoot that, get out of the car”, a few minutes later we’re admiring a nice even 8, the shot is a little high and a little far back but it dropped on the spot, so good enough. I take the other 2 out on a walk and stalk, we get on a group of stags and hinds and shoot a mature stag standing 1/2 on profile at 120M. The head drops and it runs into the trees 70M away, I can see blood in the right spot and a front leg swinging but its moving fast. Once again, theres no sign of it, 3 of us looking in some thick nasty shite for over an hour but nothing, we retreat and will check for ravens in the PM.
On the way down I spot another stag on a heather bank about 50M out from the trees, we have a nice solid rest at just about 150M with the stag in profile. Can you neck him or break the shoulders? The stag turns slightly away, and the shot is low behind the on side shoulder breaking the off side leg, but it makes the trees. We find a few splinters of bone but that’s it, despite a lot more crawling about. Its gone. Visibility in the trees is about 10M with rocks, holes and hollows everywhere. If you were a lost lamb, Jesus Christ himself wouldn’t find you here.
When we collect Eric he has dragged out the 8 and added a 6, shot quartering on, front of the shoulder, straight down.
So off to the weigh and pay, both graded “C” due saddle damage.
We had one more deer in the PM, pinned high through the shoulders, it was the mans first deer so no complaints, but it graded” C”.
We had one on Sunday morning, neck shot after I threw a tantrum over lunch the day before and threatened to revoke all whiskey privileges unless there were substantial improvements in placement and practical shooting skills. That one graded “A”.
One shot in the PM, a 6, high shoulder, dropped on the spot but again, saddle damaged, “C”graded.
So there you have it, 10 deer over the weekend, all but one chest shot, 3 not recovered despite what appeared to be good solid hits, one grading “B” and the rest “C” .
The one neck shot was picked where it fell and graded”A” .
So no more “ chest only, its always fatal “ for me or mine it may well be, but that wont do you any good if you can’t find it, also, the financial penalty is pretty severe even when you do.
From now on I’ll keep the range down, carry a cane and flog the bejaysus out of anyone that doesn’t do what I say.
Sounds very unlucky
Also sounds like you have a client shot placement issue, perhaps bullet choice and game dealer issue.
“Good solid hits” doesn’t always mean well placed, especially if your tree line is so close and inhospitable

Game dealers who penalise for a shot placement with a smaller margin for error are asking for trouble in my opinion
Stalkers are fallible and often their own accuracy is overstated
 
Sounds very unlucky
Also sounds like you have a client shot placement issue, perhaps bullet choice and game dealer issue.
“Good solid hits” doesn’t always mean well placed, especially if your tree line is so close and inhospitable

Game dealers who penalise for a shot placement with a smaller margin for error are asking for trouble in my opinion
Stalkers are fallible and often their own accuracy is overstated
“Unfortunate” covers it as far as bullet performance and placement goes, all of the rifles and stalkers have killed cleanly with the same ammunition and similar placement in the past.
The game dealer is running a business, he’s not knowingly going to pay top rate for dog food and trimmings.
Theres also a new inspector who’s conducting a bit of a purge at the moment. The purge wouldn’t be totally out of order either, I’ve seen some pretty disgusting carcasses on the rail.
It is what it is, personally its dog just in case, a neck shot and a clean carcass wherever possible.
Your practice may vary, that’s fine too, it would be a very boring planet if we all agreed on everything.
 
Sorry this may be an ignorant question. but while growing up in the US i have eaten many gut shot deer by family members and even though it is never intended when I was a young kid I have gut shot deer myself (thankfully it has been a very long time since I've gut shot anything). However, there has never been any ill effects of eating these whitetail that were gut shot. So why would you say puncture the rumen then its a scrap? Like I said sorry if its an ignorant question but it seems over here in the UK people look at gut shot or ruptured guts during the gutting process in a total different manner than in America.
No its not an ignorant question, and I will try to answer it appropriately. When it comes to home consumption you can accept any quality of carcass, if you intend to pass that carcass on then you have a responsibility to end user that it is not going to put you in hospital or the morgue. I have worked as a game dealer for years and the standard of carcasses while improving was definitely sub-standard. With the advent of DMQ qualifications has come an awareness and this has risen the the standard of carcasses being offered.
While some carcasses that have contamination within the body cavity will be suitable with care for home consumption, in an industrial environment the care needed outweighs the value of the carcass, and the reputational damage it could cause is long term.
All it will take in this present climate is a food scare involving the venison industry and the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down.Those that have surplus of deer will have no outlet, even if they turn towards an artisan side of the food industry, no one will touch it.
We have been advised now that any carcass that is not " in our opinion" fit for the food chain is left where it is, gone are the days of trimming & washing out contamination and trying to remove as much as possible, the industry doesn't want it..

regards
N
 
Hi Sol, if the Reds in SW Scotland are only double you're weight or 190 lbs something has changed radically since I shot Reds 15 years ago in that area. A hind maybe but never shot a stag under 18 stone (252 lbs).
The largest stag shot here was 90kg so probably about 110-115kg on the hoof, I'm unsure why there so small compared to other deer out there for the area there not really In a bad enviroment unlike the highland reds, My friend used too shoot 15-20 deer per week for the game dealer In his youth (once taking 9 within a few minutes!) so I wouldn't doubt him, Hell if you were trying to lie wouldn't you go for a higher number?
.
The first stag I got to witness up close an personal (dead :rofl:) Only weighed 69 kilos, And It wasn't a small deer either head wise 9 points with obvious signs of still improving to eventually become a great stag If he was left he was probably 4-5?
The roe do completely fine here and weigh about as much as you expect them too, No fallow in the area and no Sika that I know off.
.
Also just for refence I am more of a fan of roe I dont really plan too go after reds, but there's always going to be a scenario where one shows up....
 
W
The largest stag shot here was 90kg so probably about 110-115kg on the hoof, I'm unsure why there so small compared to other deer out there for the area there not really In a bad enviroment unlike the highland reds, My friend used too shoot 15-20 deer per week for the game dealer In his youth (once taking 9 within a few minutes!) so I wouldn't doubt him, Hell if you were trying to lie wouldn't you go for a higher number?
.
The first stag I got to witness up close an personal (dead :rofl:) Only weighed 69 kilos, And It wasn't a small deer either head wise 9 points with obvious signs of still improving to eventually become a great stag If he was left he was probably 4-5?
The roe do completely fine here and weigh about as much as you expect them too, No fallow in the area and no Sika that I know off.
.
Also just for refence I am more of a fan of roe I dont really plan too go after reds, but there's always going to be a scenario where one shows up....
When I lived in the area there were plenty of Fallow around Newton Stewart and the Red stags would tip the scales well over twenty stone when mature. Never believe there are no Sika in the area, again there were a few around NS and the Borders lot were well through past Drumlanrig . I handled a hybrid stag from that estate and he was well mature. To be that age his Sika father must have travelled to hinds further out.
 
W

When I lived in the area there were plenty of Fallow around Newton Stewart and the Red stags would tip the scales well over twenty stone when mature. Never believe there are no Sika in the area, again there were a few around NS and the Borders lot were well through past Drumlanrig . I handled a hybrid stag from that estate and he was well mature. To be that age his Sika father must have travelled to hinds further out.
To be fair this stalking property Is south Ayrshire (3 miles out of D&G) I do wonder what's happened though, While we no longer sell the deer so we dont weigh them I feel like within that 5 year spree of shooting back In the 1990s something larger than 90kg gralloched should of been shot, but apparently not!
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Do you happen to know the current fellas that shoot the fallow at Newton? I've been wondering if any properties do stalking there for the future.
 
To be fair this stalking property Is south Ayrshire (3 miles out of D&G) I do wonder what's happened though, While we no longer sell the deer so we dont weigh them I feel like within that 5 year spree of shooting back In the 1990s something larger than 90kg gralloched should of been shot, but apparently not!
.
Do you happen to know the current fellas that shoot the fallow at Newton? I've been wondering if any properties do stalking there for the future.
No sorry but I've been back in Englandshire for 15 years. Still come up for a Sika though in the Border hills.
 
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140gr what in the two 7mm rifles?

The SST has a reputation the world over for poor penetration if it hits bone at a quartering angle, especially at high velocity / close range.

The Barnes 120gr TSX will perform fine at close range assuming it passes through enough muscle and bone to initiate decent expansion. However my experience of this type of bullet with the quartering shot is that you need to be very sure of your angles to ensure you connect with the hilar or high shoulder, else you will get a pass through that may not deal immediately fatal consequences - i.e. long runner. Again there’s a reputation the world over of this type of bullet producing inadequate wounding in behind-the-shoulder (rear lung) shots.

I’m sorry you had such a bad experience.
I shoot 140g SST's in my 6.5 swede. Never had a problem and your guys were probably too light.
last Sika went in and out of the chest in a straight line, and pulverised the 💖. Not a problem.
 
For your edification @Sharpie:

View attachment 280100

I’ve got a bunch of gralloch photos that I can send you if you like.

Once you’ve worked it out it is a game changer, as evidenced by the number of guys on here who have adopted the shot and spoken up about the effectiveness.
Thank you, but I am, at least theoretically, familiar with the HILAR shot placement, and every reason to believe it can be the closest thing to a bang-flop, other than a brain shot or high neck. In fact I'm pretty sure that was the reason for several bang-flops, which were quartering away, me going for traditional top of heart but probably overestimated how far forward I needed to be.

I'm not sure which nerve plexuses are in that region but there are lots, controlling heart, lungs, and other less immediately fatal things. As I said, I have a couple of times tried to identify these nerves, in the larder by carefully dissecting the animal rather than just whipping everything out with a full suspended gralloch, to no avail.

I have not read a convincing description of what, I suspect several different mechanisms, can happen with this deliberate shot, but I don't doubt that it can be very effective

My concern was with your recommendation that a low down full-frontal chest shot, using a suitable bullet, invariably did not rupture the stomach etc., the bullet always piling up in the liver. Which of course does not totally cover all that region, in cross section. Even if hit with a soft bullet, never mind a strong one designed to penetrate as well as simply expand. . I have never tried that, was taught, basically, to go for the "adams apple" position in such circumstances, as shown by @dunwater
 
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