This is why I don’t like chest shots.

[Heym SR20]

HILAR shot placement. Firstly if you have ever had flu, covid etc you will have noticed how painful and sensitive your armpits become. When a doctor presses in there its very painful. If you want to restrain somebody you put them in an armlock and just a very slight force adds a sickening pain. There are large nerve bundles in under the armpit and shoulder blade.

A bullet tight in on the HILAR will impact these nerve bundles either directly with the bullet or with the shock wave. Net effect is a very big thump that will knock an animal out.

Secondly at the top of the heart and lungs you have large bundles of nerves connecting the brains autonomic nervous system and the bodies vital organs in particular the heart and lungs.

The bullet and shockwave then goes through this little lots as well. Again giving massive shock. It will hydraulic shock up the main blood vessels to the brain giving that a good direct belt as well.

And finally just for good measure it gives the far shoulder nerves another good belt.

All of which will render the animal pretty immediately unconcious, and completely mess its ability to run.

In the meantime the bullet has also severed all the major blood vessels srpund the top of the heart and lungs so its loosing blood pressure very quickly. Even if the animal comes to after being knocked out, loss of blood pressure to the brain will have rendered in dead within a few seconds.

If you go further back you only hit lungs and you are just using loss of blood pressure to kill. The animal is conscious and fight or flight response kicks in. On a deer it means it will run off. With a Buffalo or Wild Boar, it gets irritated and comes for you.

It’s probably dead in about two or three minutes at most. Usually with 10 to 20 seconds, but it can bloody long way running at 30 to 40mph. A fast sprinter only runs at 20mph and can cover 80 to 100m in 10 secs.

 

[Heym SR20]

TRADITIONAL shot placement, probably came about because 1) Scotland, where deer stalking in UK really started in the Victorian era and was pretty much the only part of the UK where stalking happened until 40 or perhaps 50 years ago, has a landscape that is pretty much bare off trees, and certainly stalking only happened out on the open hill. The traditional sport of stalking developed to tests ones skill in crawling into deer out in the open. Shooting them in woodland or from a high seat was what the nasty continentals or colonials did.

A ball from a muzzle loading rifle doesn’t a huge amount of penetrative ability so you put the ball behind the shoulder. When centrefire rifles came along a pure lead bullet would not survive the velocities, the rotational speeds etc nor would feed well in military bolt action rifles. Remember bolt actions where military rifles long before they became sporting rifles. So Rubin invented the jacketed bullet where the copper jacket went over the front of the lead. These worked very well in rifles and machine guns - they fed nicely, penetrated very well and could kill at ranges far exceeding muzzle loaders, or black powder centrefire cartridges. Those bullets worked well on big game (elephants etc) but on small animals they just passed through.

So effectively turning the bullet around you ended up with the cup and core bullet. This works very well on the ribcage opening up and causing massive damage to the lungs. The high velocity prewar cartridges (244 H&H etc) and post war 243, 270s all killed well by putting the bullet behind the shoulder.

And on the open hill it doesn’t matter if the animal runs a bit - you can keep it in sight easily enough.

Put such a high velocity bullet on the shoulder you just get a big mess and deer that is not necessarily dead.

And in Scotland most deer would go via a dealer or into the estate and messy carcasses were not liked. Hence always behind the shoulder shot preferred. And this is what has stuck.

However those grubby continentals and colonials did dastardly things such as shooting buck in bushveld and forest type environments, and often on the run. They also shot game in areas where if they didn’t get to the carcass quckly something else would. And often the game didn’t just run and die in a civilised manner, instead they would like to try and turn the hunter into some form of toe jam.

And mostly these colonials used bolt action rifles, usually of military style with military ammo (often the older round nosed bullet if they could get them), as soft point ammo was not available and/or bloody expensive. They quickly learnt that the shoulder / HILAR shot puts game down quickly, works when you use a tough military type bullet and works well from most angles especially when game is moving through bush type cover. But don’t put them through the lungs.

Meanwhile those who were using cup and core softpoint type bullets wanted a more reliable bullet that wouldn’t break up on shoulders - hence development of expanding monolithics and core lock type bullets.

Now in the UK deer are in pretty much every county and often shot in woodland and on small parcels of land. It’s very untidy if they run very far, but our traditional shot placement is for open ground where it doesn’t matter if they run.

And for British hunters to change anything - well lots of sucking teeth. For many lowland deer stalking after Roe etc is still really quite an odd thing to want to do. It’s not stalking after a Red Stag in Scotland and rather upsets the phaesant shooting. There is still an in bred view that foxes should only be killed by hounds and Roe Deer should be shot on Roe drives by the keepers with shotguns after the phaesant shooting season.

 

[Dunwaters]

For your edification @Sharpie:

View attachment 280100

I’ve got a bunch of gralloch photos that I can send you if you like.

Once you’ve worked it out it is a game changer, as evidenced by the number of guys on here who have adopted the shot and spoken up about the effectiveness.

No doubt that HILAR shot is effective, but its going to damage a lot of meat and theres a good chance that you’ll rupture the gastric tract and spread a bit of green goop through the cavity and into the muscle layers.
The illustrated placement of the neck shot looks a bit low, that’s more chest than neck and hydrostatic shock is likely to cause saddle damage, ideally I’d go for the middle of the neck, about 4” above the spot indicated.
Its not all that small or difficult to hit either.

 

[User00033]

No doubt that HILAR shot is effective, but its going to damage a lot of meat

Cobblers.

Look at the anatomy and the angles. Precision and the right bullet and you avoid the shoulder altogether. However, this is not something one should expect from wayward clients!

 

[Dunwaters]

Cobblers.

Look at the anatomy and the angles. Precision and the right bullet and you avoid the shoulder altogether. However, this is not something one should expect from wayward clients!

My friend, I value your opinion, but not when I know better.
I’ve done it, lots of times from lots of angles and no amount of precision is going to prevent serious damage if both the angle the deer is standing at, or shot placement is less than perfect.
So COBBLERS to you too…..

 

[sauer]

Anybody got a CLEAR uncluttered pic of hilar shot placement ?

Paul

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Anybody got a CLEAR uncluttered pic of hilar shot placement ?

Paul

Took me about 10 minutes to decipher the one above

 

[Foxyboy43]

Here you go. Funny thing is it took Mrs FB to remind me that I apparently always ask where the guide wants me to shoot them!

 

[Heym SR20]

Here you go. Funny thing is it took Mrs FB to remind me that I apparently always ask where the guide wants me to shoot them!

View attachment 280221

Yup thats it. I tend to go very slightly further back - middle of foreleg as it gives a little more margin for error. And you are still a long way from the diaphragm. Yes you might get a bit more meat damage if you use a cheap cup and core bullet and you go a little high. Spend another 50p to £1 on a decent bullet and forget that worry.

 

[gixer1]

Although good - a hilar shot is no guarantee of a DRT…the below was spot on placement wise, the front upper of the heart was destroyed. This beastie still managed to go 40 yards. Granted - some of that it had dropped onto its chest and it’s back legs were doing the pushing…

 

[howa243]

Finally shite happens, but that was way too much shite for a single long weekend.

Never a truer word. The kind of weekend that could make you pack it in.

For what it is worth, I pretty much only shoot in a parkland setting these days and consequently am always head shooting. I have shot 28 reds recently and two have gone wrong. Both were sorted out easily, neither would have been fatal if they had escaped and both were as a result of a very small movement.

What this kind of shooting has taught me, is never to take a head shot outside of wire and certainly not without a dog. Not my dog of course, because she is pathetic.

 

[HonestJohn]

Although good - a hilar shot is no guarantee of a DRT…the below was spot on placement wise, the front upper of the heart was destroyed. This beastie still managed to go 40 yards. Granted - some of that it had dropped onto its chest and it’s back legs were doing the pushing…

View attachment 280222

too far back to be a perfect Hilar shot, should have been on a Roe, 1/2" in FRONT of the front leg

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

All you lot make this sound complicated

I call it pinning through the shoulders!

Works from cwd all the way through to lowland red.

 

[gixer1]

too far back to be a perfect Hilar shot, should have been on a Roe, 1/2" in FRONT of the front leg

That’s the exit…also, have a think where it’s front leg would be if it was standing..

 

[Sharpie]

All you lot make this sound complicated

I call it pinning through the shoulders!

Works from cwd all the way through to lowland red.

Deer don't have shoulders in the way that human beans do. What we often talk of as our shoulder, e.g when dislocated, or "frozen", or stiff, we normally mean as the ball and socket joint between humerus and scapula.

Since we evolved to walk on our back legs we developed quite a different anatomy, our "shoulder blades" i.e. scapulas around the back, and additional collar bones (clavicles)) to stabilise them.

Deer scapulas "float", located by the surrounding muscle and tendons. AFAIK there aren't any ligaments connecting the scapulas to the rest of the skeleton. They don't have clavicles like humans do, which connect our scapulas to our clavicles and the clavicles to the sternum, via ligaments. A human without clavicles would be pretty floppy.



My understanding of a "pinning" shot is that it is an attempt to disable the use of the front legs, at least one, preferably both if broadside on and a penetrating bullet. With the wrong bullet, maybe just disable one front leg, leaving it to limp or run off on the remaining three. Also maybe a meat saving shot, or less risk of hitting some part of the intestinal tract, or losing meat from the neck (there is a lot of good meat in the thick neck of say a muntjac or a thickset red or sika)

If it coincidentally disrupts something in the much vaunted "HILAR" region, well that's a bonus I suppose.

I presume that you are shooting into the scapula, which is a higher shot, with lots of things behind it (if it penetrates) to really destroy the beast. But I don't exactly consider it a HILAR shot, probably quite wrong about that.

Depending on bullet, may also send bone fragments around the "HILAR" region too. Or do you try to hit them at the small target which is the ball and socket between the humerus and the scapula ?

Perhaps you could mark up this diagram to show us whereabouts you aim.

Shot placement | Best Practice Guidance



My two bang-flop / DRT were a surprise to me, aiming for top of heart, I was anticipating a bit of a run, rarely less than 30 metres, longest was 80m, but always a good blood trail, shot through and through with a good exit.

 

[Foxyboy43]

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

That’s the exit…also, have a think where it’s front leg would be if it was standing..

Deer don't have shoulders in the way that human beans do. What we often talk of as our shoulder, e.g when dislocated, or "frozen", or stiff, we normally mean as the ball and socket joint between humerus and scapula.

Since we evolved to walk on our back legs we developed quite a different anatomy, our "shoulder blades" i.e. scapulas around the back, and additional collar bones (clavicles)) to stabilise them.

Deer scapulas "float", located by the surrounding muscle and tendons. AFAIK there aren't any ligaments connecting the scapulas to the rest of the skeleton. They don't have clavicles like humans do, which connect our scapulas to our clavicles and the clavicles to the sternum, via ligaments. A human without clavicles would be pretty floppy.

View attachment 280248

My understanding of a "pinning" shot is that it is an attempt to disable the use of the front legs, at least one, preferably both if broadside on and a penetrating bullet. With the wrong bullet, maybe just disable one front leg, leaving it to limp or run off on the remaining three. Also maybe a meat saving shot, or less risk of hitting some part of the intestinal tract, or losing meat from the neck (there is a lot of good meat in the thick neck of say a muntjac or a thickset red or sika)

If it coincidentally disrupts something in the much vaunted "HILAR" region, well that's a bonus I suppose.

I presume that you are shooting into the scapula, which is a higher shot, with lots of things behind it (if it penetrates) to really destroy the beast. But I don't exactly consider it a HILAR shot, probably quite wrong about that.

Depending on bullet, may also send bone fragments around the "HILAR" region too. Or do you try to hit them at the small target which is the ball and socket between the humerus and the scapula ?

Perhaps you could mark up this diagram to show us whereabouts you aim.

Shot placement | Best Practice Guidance

View attachment 280242

My two bang-flop / DRT were a surprise to me, aiming for top of heart, I was anticipating a bit of a run, rarely less than 30 metres, longest was 80m, but always a good blood trail, shot through and through with a good exit.

Personally i am a front end and bang, i dont even think about it.

When i am guiding clients its strict pinning, no other shot placement is tolerated regardless of experience!

 

[Dunwaters]

Yup thats it. I tend to go very slightly further back - middle of foreleg as it gives a little more margin for error. And you are still a long way from the diaphragm. Yes you might get a bit more meat damage if you use a cheap cup and core bullet and you go a little high. Spend another 50p to £1 on a decent bullet and forget that worry.

It will cost a fair bit more than that at the dealer’s.
Every illustration is showing a perfect profile view, that’s just not realistic in the real world.

 

[Sharpie]

So, do we have a consensus yet ? And where should a "continental" client be pre-briefed on acceptable shot placement ? How might this decision vary for a quartering or otherwise shot ? Which would AGHEs prefer ?

My first instructor took me through this before I took my first deer with him, using children's plastic animal models, mainly focussing on the deer. He would place them on the table in various positions and attitudes, then get me to show my point of aim With a dagger, though any other pointing device would do.. Once I was good at that we moved onto pigs/boar, then for fun (he had shot all of these) buffalo, rhino, hippopotamus, elephant, and big cats. I well remember his instruction, if you have really effed up and it is running directly away from you, shoot it in the arsehole, and keep on shooting until it stops.

Could be an amusing, and useful instructional exercise whilst the clients are getting mildly bevvied up, or even hitting the spirits hard, the evening before. As it seems might have happened on this occasion. Breathalysers at dawn maybe ?

Which do you prefer ?

Red for @dunwater
Green for @Norfolk Deer Search
Pink for @gixer1 and other HILAR types
Yellow for @dodgyknees
Blue for traditionalists

 

[Heym SR20]

It will cost a fair bit more than that at the dealer’s.
Every illustration is showing a perfect profile view, that’s just not realistic in the real world.

Not sure where you are buying your ammo from.

Here in Edinburgh I am paying just over £50 a box for 20 loaded rounds of Fox ammo, that includes VAT. And I am paying about £50 incl VAT for a box of 50 Fox or Peregrine bullets.

Factory ammo for leaded ammo is about £30 to £40 a box, or well over £50 for premium such as Norma. Even PPU is now £20 plus a box for 223. A friend just paid £60 plus for a box of 20 Norma 7x57 loaded with Partition bullets.