Designer puppies

[Morkai]

Love to see a dog on a beach.

Nice to let her off there as there's no hedges she can fit through and I cant....had her do that a few times, hahaha.

 

[John Gryphon]

Love to see a dog on a beach.

Dingoes on Fraser Island - Fraser Tours - Fraser-Tours.com

Fraser Island is the world's largest sand island, located on the Fraser Coast of Queensland, Australia. It is known not only for its stretches of sandy beaches and inland rainforest but also for its population of resident dingoes.

fraser-tours.com

 

[Bugsy]

I’ve seen pedigree dogs with a list of breeding and it was still thick and cost 4 figures and I’ve seen muts / mongrels that have been helava clever obedient and loyal that were going to be drowned .
My mut is a Poodle Pointer and cost me a fair bit to buy , he’s hyper and no patience , not steady enough . Once he smells a close deer there’s no telling him where as my old mongrel was as calm and collective and would indicate by taken one extra step forward and her ears would stand up she cost me 5p as luck money to an old fella who was giving her away , I also didn’t have any vet bills , lived till she was 15 .

 

[Jäger 01]

I’m trying to get my Lab to get tracking at the moment

 

[Heym SR20]

Lets not forget that the vast majority of working breeds of dogs are the end result of selective breeding. Many of the breeds were developed by breeders taking a bit of this and a bit of that to ultimately develop something that met their idea of a breed. Many of these new “designer” breeds may well become new breeds in their own right, whilst many traditional breeds will just fade away.

And in agriculture cross breeding is widely used in all sorts of animals. Most lowland sheep flocks will use an upland type ewe, or an upland x lowland bred ewe as the breeding flock, and then run these with a big lowland ram. This good size fast growing lamb, but with flavour of an upland breed, and also good mothering instincts of uplands.

In cattle, you regularly put dairy cows to a beef bull to better beef animals.

 

[countrryboy]

Lets not forget that the vast majority of working breeds of dogs are the end result of selective breeding. Many of the breeds were developed by breeders taking a bit of this and a bit of that to ultimately develop something that met their idea of a breed. Many of these new “designer” breeds may well become new breeds in their own right, whilst many traditional breeds will just fade away.

And in agriculture cross breeding is widely used in all sorts of animals. Most lowland sheep flocks will use an upland type ewe, or an upland x lowland bred ewe as the breeding flock, and then run these with a big lowland ram. This good size fast growing lamb, but with flavour of an upland breed, and also good mothering instincts of uplands.

In cattle, you regularly put dairy cows to a beef bull to better beef animals.

No offence, but not 1 single new designer breed will ever be as good as the breeds we already have at the moment, unless the way we shoot changes dramatically. The current breeds we have have been around for a very long long time for a very good reason, they tend to be very good at wot ever niche they have been bred for.
And if u do ur homework there already pretty much already is an established breed to fill most niche's in shooting or repurpose another breed with the right training rather than 'inventing' a breed.
Yes in the uk at 1 time is was all ur goldies and flatties that have now been widely replaced by labs and ur now seeing the hpr's come in in recent decades.
Half the reason ur needing to X a lab into certain breeds to 'calm' them down is ur asking the dog to do something it has been selective bred NOT to do, if u need to X a dog with a lab their is a good change u would be better of just buying a decent lab in 1st place.
Instead of finding the breed that fits ur shooting ur finding a breed u like and trying to shoehorn it to do wot u do, if its a driven breed most likely fighting 00's years of selective breeding all the way, a lot of dog ownership in UK is now round peg square hole syndrome

A lot is said thats how all breeds started and yes it is, but they also formed at a time when very few real breeds even existed and out of neccesacity to do a job/fill a niche, even in different parts of the world before u really could travel similar types of dogs were bred to fill similar niche's, now there truely is no need to be breeding new 'breeds'

I would say in the past pure working ability would really be the only criteria, now looks fashion seems to be the most important, colour seem to be important too even in FT competion dogs( look faster and flashier) as good old dog men said a good dog is never the wrong colour.
I must admit when i see an add on here for puppies there is umpteen requests for photos/colours but few ever ask for the pedigrees/lines, i do like a old fashioned 'type'/build/stamp of the different breeds i have but after that don't really care about colour or would ask for a photo

But these new designer mongrals are nothing new, the original breeds have been around for hundreds of years, do u honestly think no one has never thought of crossing them before.
I'd guess any 1's most likely to succed will have been tried and failed many times before
Althou most likely most real dog men of the past would have a lot more sense than to even waste there time Xing some of the truely bizzare mixes u see advertised nowadays.
Fair enough if a bitch gets caught accidentally, but to purposefully line ur 'decent' bitch, with all the risks/expenses involved for the bitch with ssome random breed in the complete lottery u will end up with some decent pups at the end.
And yes i'm sure u will end up with some decent pups but most likely also the same amount of sh#te pups, as someone said earlier why does everyone always persume u only get the best point of both breeds, prob 25% ish might be the best of both but by same token 25% will likely be the worst of both, with the other 50 just a complete random mix ( thats ignoring dominace and recessive gene/phenotypes, which as its a new X u can't even begin to predict)

Generally speaking ur starting of with a poorer dogs to start with, never going to produce the best offspring, ur then selling the pups to any tom dick or harry, no restrictions on them breeding the pups or wot standard they need to be at before being breed.
It is just a total free for all with most of the folk doing it not really having a clue wot there trying to achieve and how to go about it.
Without a decent group of breeders/trainers with a clear vison of wot they want and knowledge of line breeding and a very good eye for honestly assesing a dogs strengths/weaknesses its never going to happen.

And before anyone starts i've got mongrals in my kennel and no doubt will have more in the future, absolutely nothing wrong with them as working dogs, but i strongly doubt i'd ever go out looking for 1 on purpose.
I've seen quite a few lab/gwps mainly on moors and owned 1, and yet to see a truely decent 1, seen plenty that are ok and a few terrible 1's ( but to be fair u see a lot of poorly trained dogs on grouse moors ), got a springerdor the now and he is a cracker, but doesnae do anything a decent lab wouldnae do, doesnae really hunt that much harder than a real lab does.
Yes they can do a job very well if the right individual as part of a team/pack but thats all they will ever be a cheap/free dog to do a job.
In this modern era ur never ever going to create a 'true' new breed of working dogs that breed 'pure to type',


Yes in agri they often cross bred dairy cows with beef or smaller hill sheep with larger tups, but no farmer ever claims he has invented a super breed.

Most of these crosses are used purely for meat production, any males are likely carstrated and never breed from, even some females may not be bred from, some will be but usually most farms will only out cross for a couple of gens and will keep some pure bred sheep/cattle for breeding stock.
With dairy only the poorer milking cows will be put to beef bulls, the good milkers would go to AI/dairy bulls as new blood for the herd with the beef sired calfs being sold or fattened or to a suckler herd
Even in dairy in the last few decades this great idea of crossing friesians with holestiens to get a mixed breed, yes milk production is throu the roof but so so many health issues with them now its scary, bad feet, struggle getting them into calf, most are lucky to do 2/3 lactations, look terrible like abag of bones walking about. And thats modern progress for u
1 farm i used to do a bit of work for, pretty run down old fashioned place, but farmer was a good stocksman still kept old fashioned fresians milking on just a grass sillage diet, no/little concentrates, cows not producing a lot of milk and not pushed hard so fairly low input/low output, but he was getting them milking past 15 years old, he told me once 1 died on him when he looked at passport it was almost 20 and still milking and had a couple more still milking at a similar age.
I know f##k all about cows or dairying really but i know when u stuck ur head in his sheds the cows coats were shining and look really healthy, completely different to modern milkers, even the show dairy cattle look ill. Just a bag of bones

I know locally theyre are a couple of mix's of cattle/sheep which are so common have their own name ( blue greys, cattle, grey face and scotch mules for sheep) but there still really just mongral breeds

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Its all £££££££ nothing more, money for fuk all, playing to the un educated who know no better!

The first BMH x Lab cross was savage, most of the litter was destroyed as they were that bad.

You only have to look in the classifieds at the dog section and it says it all!

£1200 for a dog with a mix i have not even heard of!

I could get a dog from germany with 100 year proven pedigree cheaper than that, i have done it once and i could do it again!

My BGS Heidi is the only bitch in the country who has completed the breed conformity for breeding under the FCI breed standard in which the kennel club takes its breed standard from!

But unfortunately she will never be bred. I wouldn’t put her 100 year bloodline in the hands of anybody in the UK to be bred with labradors or spaniels, or any other dog that they think they can own a quick quid from.

Am I a purist, 100%

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Some good points raised, many of which I echo. It pays to remember that dog breeds are all relatively 'new'. Few breeds have accurate, documented history beyond the 1850's and most breeds far less than that so on the grand scheme of things, 150 years of 'dog breeds' compared to thousands of years of dogs assisting man just shows us that even established, registered breeds are a newish concept.

It must also be acknowledged that roles never stand still as laws and cultures change as does the equipment used by the human member of the team - dog breeds will never stand still, maybe in our short lifetimes we might see little change but the scene will look very different in another 100 years.

 

[Stalker62]

Am I a purist, 100%

Beautiful tautology.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

does the dog breeds will never stand still, maybe in our short lifetimes we might see little change but the scene will look very different in another 100 years.

My time arguing about it is long gone Keith, as parting words, how would you feel if one of your pups was crossed with a Chihuahua or a poodle for the next designer breed?

 

[John Gryphon]

If we consider the Grey Wolf as pure.....Recent molecular evidence shows that dogs are descended from the grey wolf, domesticated about 130,000 years ago.
Doesnt that mean that all other breeds are *&%^$#@`s

 

[Dunwaters]

The problem with the current crop of designer dogs is that theres no blue print or standard.
Breed X is crossed with breed Y and the pups are marketed as having the desired conformation and ability without any test or often enough, without anyone ever defining what the dogs are supposed to do differently to the parent breeds.
If you set out to produce a new breed of dog you need to define exactly what they’re going to look like and how they’ll behave, then run the litter on yourself while ruthlessly culling pups that don’t meet your standards.
The culling is crucially necessary to the process of establishing a type and its not being done.
Buy one of the crosses and your taking a punt, it might work as designed but it might not, theres nothing new under the sun, do you really think that no one has ever tried to improve or change a breed before?
Rather than try to reinvent the wheel, we’d be generally better off choosing from the existing list of established breeds and maybe giving it a bit more thought.
Of course that won’t suit the guy who just has to have a custom rifle, with a custom stock in a custom case in his custom car.
He definitely needs a custom dog.

 

[John Gryphon]

Designer favourites here are the Cavoodles (why would you) first cross Poodle /King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. I personally know a woman that breeds them and her Poodle stud dog has the finest pedigree ha ha as do her KCS bitches....outrageous money is paid for them too...gulp!

 

[John Gryphon]

He definitely needs a custom dog.

And he has to have a custom sheila with custom teeth/custom ti*s/custom lips/custom lipoed arse and a custom labia trimmed snatch with of course custom lasering too.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

My time arguing about it is long gone Keith, as parting words, how would you feel if one of your pups was crossed with a Chihuahua or a poodle for the next designer breed?

That would really p*ss me off, however.........I have been approached by someone wanting to use working dachshund blood to try to revive the old working dandie dinmont. Now I personally believe that there is no longer a 'need' for a working dandie but I would support that union if it was done for all the right (in my opinion) reasons.

 

[Magnificent 7]

Doesn’t matter what cross the actually dogs used in the cross are, for me what’s important there both proven and well tested dogs with plenty of work under there belts.Not some
Pup put to another to make a few pounds.

 

[Norfolk Horn]

That would really p*ss me off, however.........I have been approached by someone wanting to use working dachshund blood to try to revive the old working dandie dinmont. Now I personally believe that there is no longer a 'need' for a working dandie but I would support that union if it was done for all the right (in my opinion) reasons.

This is a reasonably idea in my opinion. If you look back at the saving of the Norfolk Horn Sheep breed this is exactly what was done.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

This is a reasonably idea in my opinion. If you look back at the saving of the Norfolk Horn Sheep breed this is exactly what was done.

A good number of Dandies entered the wire-haired dachshund gene-pool in the mid/late 19 century via British horse traders so there is already a link between the two.

 

[countrryboy]

Some good points raised, many of which I echo. It pays to remember that dog breeds are all relatively 'new'. Few breeds have accurate, documented history beyond the 1850's and most breeds far less than that so on the grand scheme of things, 150 years of 'dog breeds' compared to thousands of years of dogs assisting man just shows us that even established, registered breeds are a newish concept.

It must also be acknowledged that roles never stand still as laws and cultures change as does the equipment used by the human member of the team - dog breeds will never stand still, maybe in our short lifetimes we might see little change but the scene will look very different in another 100 years.

Totally agree and many breeds being a lot younger.

But around that time is just when many lifestyles would be changing, driven shooting and breech loaders beginning so ur moving away from ur pointer/setter type breeds which were handy with falconry or flint locks as they gave u more time while the dog was on point/sett.


When these breeds were formed it would often be slightly mad/eccentric lords/ladies, lairds, dukes and royalty often with there own kennel staff, no expense would be spared and any dogs of wot ever breed they were using would be the absolute best for wot they wanted.
And they would be savage in pursuit of only breeding with the very best of each litter.

Even ur biggest uk gundog kennel names will hardly be running enough brood bitches to keep a genuine distinct 'line' with a distinct look/type.

1 lad crossing his bitch no matter how good it is, to another breed, and miraculously the dog he owns from that breed just happens to be the ideal match to his bitch???? More chance of winning the lottery

It is wot it is, it may very well produce decent pups, but also more likely produce a wide range that is impossible to predict, keepers have been at it since the breeds were formed, and most will have had a few good working litters but then gt too many litters of dubious performance before going back to the tried and tested 'proven' breeds.
I know the keeper who bred my springerdor ( who i rate as a dog man) had 1 accidental litter which turned out so well, had another 2 but back to pure breeds again


And ur dead right breeds are changing and evolving, i bet dog breeds ( both show and FT, genuine working prob not as much) have changed more in the last 30 years than they did in the previous 150, sadly in my opinion not all for the good.
In gundogs esp the rise in FT has led to dogs orientated very much for competition, spaniels too small, springers too white, all too make them look fastier and flashier and labs have lost there double coats and decent tails, so many have issues with the cold and won't hit cover anymore.

I think in general both in dogs and even livestock breeding the experienced stocksmans eye is lacking and getting used less, most of the recent 'improvements' arent really improvements to my mind

 

[Bigboab29]

I’ve got a bmh x ess and she has turned out very well, she 7 now but she’s used exclusively on deer and her nose is fantastic but being half spaniel I can actually recall her rather than just watch her charge off into the distance like our other hounds, I wouldn’t hesitate to have another bmh x ess again she has and still is serving me well