Designer puppies

Rake Aboot

Well-Known Member
Do you think they will work and track deer ?
Or are they just money making crosses being marketed as something special , when in reality they would just be called mongrels before instagram arrived.?

Just curious likes.
 
Do you think they will work and track deer ?
Or are they just money making crosses being marketed as something special , when in reality they would just be called mongrels before instagram arrived.?

Just curious likes.
Would depend what the cross was, Labrador and a spaniel, yeah that’ll probably be trainable to track deer. Bulldog and a pug, probably not…
 
Do you think they will work and track deer ?
Or are they just money making crosses being marketed as something special , when in reality they would just be called mongrels before instagram arrived.?

Just curious likes.
Of course cross-breds could be trained to track deer - without any doubt. The word 'designer' is popular but what does it really mean? Or what does the OP mean by the term?

Is a whippet x greyhound a designer breed? It is certainly an intentional cross, just like a collie x greyhound, intended or 'designed' for a specific role.

Is a Bavarian x Lab a designer breed - bred by design for a specific task, likewise with GSP x Lab or GWP x Lab and why not?

Some would say (me included) that there is enough individual variation in litters of the same breed without wanting to add to the complexity of bringing more variables into the mix but, to each his own, dog-breeding has always had the benefit of experimentation and long may that continue.

Incidentally, I know a professional dog trainer from Germany who has wagered, many times that he will train any breed through to Schwhk standard on 1000 metre/20 hour trail and I have no doubt that he could. They might not be tracking dogs par excellence but.......it's more than many stalking companions have achieved.
 
Would depend what the cross was, Labrador and a spaniel, yeah that’ll probably be trainable to track deer. Bulldog and a pug, probably not…
The interesting thing with crossing working breeds is that people always assume you'll get the best traits of each breed rather than the worst.

People breed specific lines of dogs and then only breed from the successful dogs that fit the breed standard and temperament for multiple generations to get the desired outcome. While someone else crosses their lab with a pointer and all of a sudden they've got the best ever deer dog because it's the best of both breeds and never has the worst traits of both breeds😂
 
Without wanting to bore anybody rigid, I wrote this piece a year or two ago....


Few terms in the working-dog arena have been bandied about as much as ‘hybrid vigour’. I recently read an interesting article that stated that hybrid vigour was like communism....It only exists in theory! It made me chuckle, but is there a grain of truth in that statement?

First of all we need to look at what the Americans refer to as 'breed complementarity' and ensure that we are not confusing this with hybrid vigour. Lurcher production is one obvious example of breed complementarity where two breeds are mated together in the hope that the off-spring will display the best attributes of each parent breed. When a German shepherd is mated to a Greyhound, it is hoped that the progeny will exhibit the brains and tractability of the GSD and speed from the greyhound.


Phil Drabble, in his entertaining 'Of Pedigree Unknown' tells us that his terrier 'Mick' was a blend of working Fox terrier and Staffordshire Bull terrier. He states “Some people would have called the resulting puppies mongrels. They were certainly cross-breds, but it was a deliberate cross aimed to combine the qualities of both Bull and Fox terriers, and was by no means a street accident that conceives mongrels in the derogatory sense”.

What I would call ‘modern bushing' is another example where breed complementarity is commonly seen. In my day, back in the 80’s and 90’s (and long before that) it seemed sufficient to have a terrier or gundog breed flush out quarry to the running dogs. Now, there is a tendency to combine the best parts from terriers, spaniels and hounds for this role. While the capability of the above cross-breeds might be superior – for a given task – to the individual parent breeds, this in itself is not ‘hybrid vigour’, it is simply designer breeding, acknowledging breed complementarity.


I am no shepherd, but I understand that in the science of lamb production the line between breed complementarity and hybrid vigour is sometimes crossed. Attributes such as increased fertility, high survival rates and increased early growth rates could be a beneficial by-product of cross-breeding when one is purposefully seeking to increase wool quality or meat yield – or they could be the specific goals of breeding plans in their own right.


So, where is the scientific proof of the benefits of hybrid vigour within bog-breeding? I have only found three comprehensive, published studies with adequate sample size to give credible conclusions. One study compared Labradors, Golden Retrievers and Lab x Golden Retrievers regarding the probability of individual dogs graduating to become guide dogs. According to the various tests carried out, the success rates were 54% for Goldens, 51% for Labs and 59% for the F1 first crosses. Is the above proof of hybrid vigour or breed complementarity? I believe it is the latter.


Another study analysed genetic material from 2207 six-week-old puppies – 199 Goldens, 704 Labs, 950 Golden x Labs, 39 Golden x Golden/Labs and 315 Lab x Golden/Labs. The results revealed hybrid vigour ranging from -6% to +2.5% based on 11 separate components tested. In summary, the overall results showed no overall benefit of hybrid vigour within the cross-bred puppies.

The final study, which was on ophthalmic disorders, compared results between Labradors, Poodles and Labradoodles. The outcome revealed a 4.6% increase in the prevalence of multi-focal retinal dysplasia in Labradoodles over either parent breed, thus in this case, cross-breeding had a negative impact. Of course, other surveys might give conflicting results but I could not find absolute evidence, based on comprehensive scientific tests, that proved that the mating together of two separate dog breeds would categorically result in offspring that were healthier than either parent – every time.


Now, that does not mean that outcrossing isn't beneficial and sometimes essential to overcome severe inbreeding problems. When the co-efficient of inbreeding increases above 25%, fertility 'can' be reduced, litter sizes 'can' decrease and post-natal survival 'might' be lower. However, much of this will depend upon the overall fitness and vitality of the parents. Conversely, a mating between two unhealthy yet unrelated parents will not guarantee that the offspring will be healthy or healthier than either parent – again much of this will depend upon the state of health of the parents.


Health testing is now commonplace within pedigree dog breeds. Many breeds carry specific genetic health problems such as hip dysplasia, progressive retinal atrophy and copper toxicosis and DNA tests for these issues are readily available. However, health testing is not exhaustive, the tests will only find what they are looking for and the myriad of potential health problems that exist in most mammals – such as heart problems and cancers can still occur in dogs passing all 'breed-specific' health tests. Also, one must be aware of untrustworthy individuals who might not be completely honest about the source of the DNA sample! But.......It is certainly a step in the right direction.


Testing 'in the field' also has its merits but extremely fit dogs can be carriers of genetic faults and if two of these supreme athletes are mated together – and they happen to carry the same fault – the resulting offspring may well be affected with health problems that were not visible in either parent. When testing in the field, one must also take into account the animals age – a super-fit 4-year-old might succumb to genetic health problems from its fifth year.

Drabble, again, demonstrates the above point perfectly in the aforementioned book. He tells of an outstanding working collie that was winning numerous sheepdog trials. So impressive was the dogs performance that it became a very fashionable stud, unfortunately the dog also carried PRA. By the 1960's almost 30% of working collies were going blind by the age of 8 with some of the responsibility down to the use of that particular stud dog.


I once asked a 'Goldendoodle' owner if the dog came with a pedigree, I was immediately told, 'of course not....it isn't a pedigree breed'! I tried, in vain, to point out that the Golden retriever and the Poodle parents were likely to have pedigrees (documented ancestry) and that it would be beneficial to the designer-breed owners and breeders alike if these records were kept, if nothing else, to prevent accidental inbreeding in the future. Alas my point was completely missed! It would be a useful leap forward if we started to see accurate pedigrees within the lurcher-breeding world too.

Looking back through history, most breeds were created by mating together different breeds – not to achieve 'hybrid vigour' but to create offspring that would combine the capabilities of each parent – in essence - breed complementarity. Even so, there was, and is, no point in mating two mediocre dogs together in the hope that the offspring will be superior – the old adage of putting the best to the best and hoping for the best still rings true.
 
Well as time marches on, breeds will develop or interbreed and if history tells us anything the general trend will be better. Else we’d all be getting dragged around by a timber wolf on a lead.

Of course a lot of these cross breeds are done for looks or fashion, or to try and breed out such things as hair shedding and some of these, although I wouldn’t condemn across the board are questionable.

Personally I’d just be happy if my 20 month old Gangly Labrador would have the urge to jump up on the worktop in the kitchen and swipe food bred out of him before he gets much older.
 
Hybrid vigour works. Its been said previously that every working dog breed is a product of cross breeding to achieve best results for stand alone modern breeds "to make the most of HV"
One only has to go back in history and look at how and what was used to cross to the dogs we use today.
 
When I was around 13 yrs old my JRT bitch got accidentally mated to a dog in our village - west highland x poodle named scruff 🙄- I kept a pup back, he had a useless long haired coat on him and looked like a mini whippet when wet but was an excellent working dog and would go to ground on anything if he had the chance. Gave the other pups away , theses days they prob worth £1000
 
This subject has occurred many times in sd history and always raises emotional comments.
To me they're mongrels plain and simple.
Will some work, aye I dare say some will be half decent.
We're all pedigree working dogs mongrels at some point, aye sure they were, but folks in them days that were trying to invent a breed by crossing different breeds were bloody ruthless doing it and kept an eye on all the pups, killing the ones that never made what was wanted not selling them because they looked cute and they could make a fast shilling.
 
sounds like every lurcher.
i dont really get the hybrid vigour, two crap dogs mated might give a decent pup but the rest will be crap.
pedigree in the uk is all about marketing, nothing to do with a decent dog. kennel club is a joke, show dogs that are "pure breed" yet cant do any thing because of health issues, but look the part.
if some one is daft enough to pay £2000 for a random pup good luck to the seller
 
Dogs are pretty amazing animals.. had a border collie who was trained to sheep but she was the best gundog i ever had. Heard the safe keys and she was on her feet ready to go. I could go out and round up woolies then go off raking in the tree lines and there she was. Amazing dog she was.
 
I have a beagle that must be crossed with a little sh#t.

Shes very intelligent but bloody hell she can be stubborn.
 
Sounds like a pure beagle to me 😊

Yeah, shes 15 next month.
Still runs around like a 2yr old.
Stubborn.
Greedy.
Brilliant nose.

Got a bit more leg than most beagles (almost like shes got a touch of Harrier), got her from Dolgellau where the chap had bred them from a hunting pack from Yorkshire. The Beagle grandmother was there and she was 18yrs old.

She's white and lemon tan.

20210507_132009-01.webp
 
Yeah, shes 15 next month.
Still runs around like a 2yr old.
Stubborn.
Greedy.
Brilliant nose.

Got a bit more leg than most beagles (almost like shes got a touch of Harrier), got her from Dolgellau where the chap had bred them from a hunting pack from Yorkshire. The Beagle grandmother was there and she was 18yrs old.

She's white and lemon tan.

View attachment 289541
Love to see a dog on a beach.
 
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