Designer puppies

Totally agree and many breeds being a lot younger.

But around that time is just when many lifestyles would be changing, driven shooting and breech loaders beginning so ur moving away from ur pointer/setter type breeds which were handy with falconry or flint locks as they gave u more time while the dog was on point/sett.


When these breeds were formed it would often be slightly mad/eccentric lords/ladies, lairds, dukes and royalty often with there own kennel staff, no expense would be spared and any dogs of wot ever breed they were using would be the absolute best for wot they wanted.
And they would be savage in pursuit of only breeding with the very best of each litter.

Even ur biggest uk gundog kennel names will hardly be running enough brood bitches to keep a genuine distinct 'line' with a distinct look/type.

1 lad crossing his bitch no matter how good it is, to another breed, and miraculously the dog he owns from that breed just happens to be the ideal match to his bitch???? More chance of winning the lottery

It is wot it is, it may very well produce decent pups, but also more likely produce a wide range that is impossible to predict, keepers have been at it since the breeds were formed, and most will have had a few good working litters but then gt too many litters of dubious performance before going back to the tried and tested 'proven' breeds.
I know the keeper who bred my springerdor ( who i rate as a dog man) had 1 accidental litter which turned out so well, had another 2 but back to pure breeds again


And ur dead right breeds are changing and evolving, i bet dog breeds ( both show and FT, genuine working prob not as much) have changed more in the last 30 years than they did in the previous 150, sadly in my opinion not all for the good.
In gundogs esp the rise in FT has led to dogs orientated very much for competition, spaniels too small, springers too white, all too make them look fastier and flashier and labs have lost there double coats and decent tails, so many have issues with the cold and won't hit cover anymore.

I think in general both in dogs and even livestock breeding the experienced stocksmans eye is lacking and getting used less, most of the recent 'improvements' arent really improvements to my mind
Many true words there and regarding any performance breeding - best worker to best worker - it is very hard to separate what is heritable and what has been trained. Putting 'the best' to 'the best' won't work too well if those two paragons are largely the result of an excellent trainer, with unlimited opportunities.
It really pays to scrutinise 'natural ability' in the first 18 months and overlay that with everything that you know about a dogs ancestry.

I've seen brilliant dogs that would have been mediocre with a different handler and mediocre dogs that would have been brilliant with a different handler - and brilliant dogs despite a mediocre handler - the latter has the better breeding potential.
 
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Many true words there and regarding any performance breeding - best worker to best worker - it is very hard to separate what is heritable and what has been trained. Putting 'the best' to 'the best' won't work too well if those two paragons are largely the result of an excellent trainer, with unlimited opportunities.
It really pays to scrutinise 'natural ability' in the first 18 months and overlay that with everything that you know about a dogs ancestry.

I've seen brilliant dogs that would have been mediocre with a different handler and mediocre dogs that would have been brilliant with a different handler - and brilliant dogs despite a mediocre handler - the latter has the better breeding potential.

Must admit thats 1 of my main gripes about modern breeding and FT's, too often the top sires ae used too often, which is fine on other top FT bitches but on poorer bitches would just be as well with a decent local working sire that suits the bitch.

Some of the top trainers now could almost polish a turd they're that good, so the FTCH might no longer be the best dog out the litter

I mind when i was just a boy in the beaing lines, most line dogs where bred by the beaters and some shoots almost had their own line/look, but in those days u would look at the good dogs with the good owners/trainers but as most dogs sold locally u could also look at other litter mates so u could make allowances for actual natural talent instead of just the trainers talent.
So if Jimmy's dog was best but auld tams wasnae that far behind anfd he's useless as a trainer, now with pups sold so widely u have no idea wot the rest tof the litter is doing.
U also got a good idea about any health problems in lines as u knew any dog with a problem.
 
All good but the thread was about Maltepoos and Jackihuahuas lol

Designer pish bought to be flaunted on instagram at huge costs.


To be honest if only for a pet i don't really care that much as long as dogs and pups healthy and producing semi biddable pups that are not a nightmare for there owners.

If folk are that stupid fair enough, my bro and family bought a cockerpoo a couple of years ago and to b honest a cracking little dog, keeper bred and a good bit more expensive than the pure cocker litter he had at same time.

The only problem with these X pairings iis if there not being registered there is nothing to stop unscruplous breeders knocking litters out every season, even the way it is i have heard of folk knocking out pur cockers KC reg 1 season and mongrals the next time she comes back in.
Not right and fairly hard to prevent
 
Not often I read a thread a disagree so vehemently; cross breeding has its place in all breeding: be it livestock or domestic.

A few examples to illustrate my view. In horse racing the AQPS is currently dominating national hunt racing, after WW1 the Prussian cavalry horses left over from the war formed the base of this breed when crossed with a thoroughbred, it is still not recognised by the french thoroughbred stud book so has formed its own, but is more than capable of competing with and beating pure thoroughbreds. Cattle breeding; the vast majority of the grass based diary farming systems now run cross bred cows, very much on the NZ system where there is little or no sentiment about breed, if it’s fit for purpose they use it and breed from it. In a similar vain they used the same sentiment to create the huntaway, which is not particularly uniformed in type but very able to drive sheep/cattle unlike the herding collie/eye dogs which are better at gathering. The Alaskan race husky, is a bastardised mix of pointer, husky, greyhound, and I’m sure a few others, but is infinitely quicker than any pure Siberian husky team. The Cocker spaniel was all bar extinct as a working dog until masses of springers was bred back into them, and until the early 90’s the vast majority of them where white bodied, only in the last 30 years has it become fashionable to distance themselves from their ancestry by becoming solid coloured. Lurcher/longdog by admission are a cross bred, the very best I’ve seen run either daytime or night and on all quarry have been bitza’s generally lurcher x lurcher. Greyhounds are fast, very, especially the coursing bred ones, but as catch dogs don’t hold a candle to daytime longdogs, or to good lamping dogs, and remember there was plenty of bull blood put into greyhounds back in the day. Terriers, well we’re do you start, all bred to fundamentally do the same thing, go to ground: Lakeland, fell, patterdale are all similar in working style and have been intercrossed many times producing some of the best earth dogs, though strains and types have been developed. The Russell’s have been bred more as baying dogs but with fashion plenty of white Lakeland and bull blood has been added as they have wained in popularity. Whippets would be the exception to the rule with running dogs as the very best are better than most small Lurcher’s.

This mythical thing called litter wastage has been spoken about many times on this thread, there is masses in the KC world too, labs with terrible hips/elbows even when both their parents have low scores as they were x-rayed when very young, hip displacia in GSD even the working strains. If we are honest, most dogs don’t make the grade due to poor human training, the dog blueprint, a NZ deer dog hunting training system demonstrates that a huge range of purebred and x’bred dogs can be outstanding hunting companions. The reality is there are far too many poor dogs bred from. It doesn’t matter if they are crossbred or purebred the vast majority should never have pups.

I’m far more of an advocate of breeding to be fit for purpose, concentrate on the traits you want and breed the best to the best and hope for the best. I personally believe the KC has a huge amount to answer for, most dogs aren’t fit for purpose, hence the show and working strains within breeds. Though the working stuff is driven my Field trial dogs which are definitely not what most general shooting men are after.
There are some amazing purebred dogs out there and I’m not advocating designer dog breeding but there is also some amazing mongrels, judge them on whether they are fit for purpose not on there pedigree.

Tin hat firmly on!
 
I have 2 working dogs, i have a German pointer x Vizsla i use for my deer stalking and a vizsla i use just on the game shooting, ive got my own share on a grouse moor and several deer syndicates that i run so there always busy dogs, plus other deer jobs i get called about.. The pointer/vizsla is one of the best dogs ive ever owned, 100% focused on deer with very little training..
 
I’ve got a bmh x ess and she has turned out very well, she 7 now but she’s used exclusively on deer and her nose is fantastic but being half spaniel I can actually recall her rather than just watch her charge off into the distance like our other hounds, I wouldn’t hesitate to have another bmh x ess again she has and still is serving me well👍
Nice looking dog in good nic
 
Not often I read a thread a disagree so vehemently; cross breeding has its place in all breeding: be it livestock or domestic.

A few examples to illustrate my view. In horse racing the AQPS is currently dominating national hunt racing, after WW1 the Prussian cavalry horses left over from the war formed the base of this breed when crossed with a thoroughbred, it is still not recognised by the french thoroughbred stud book so has formed its own, but is more than capable of competing with and beating pure thoroughbreds. Cattle breeding; the vast majority of the grass based diary farming systems now run cross bred cows, very much on the NZ system where there is little or no sentiment about breed, if it’s fit for purpose they use it and breed from it. In a similar vain they used the same sentiment to create the huntaway, which is not particularly uniformed in type but very able to drive sheep/cattle unlike the herding collie/eye dogs which are better at gathering. The Alaskan race husky, is a bastardised mix of pointer, husky, greyhound, and I’m sure a few others, but is infinitely quicker than any pure Siberian husky team. The Cocker spaniel was all bar extinct as a working dog until masses of springers was bred back into them, and until the early 90’s the vast majority of them where white bodied, only in the last 30 years has it become fashionable to distance themselves from their ancestry by becoming solid coloured. Lurcher/longdog by admission are a cross bred, the very best I’ve seen run either daytime or night and on all quarry have been bitza’s generally lurcher x lurcher. Greyhounds are fast, very, especially the coursing bred ones, but as catch dogs don’t hold a candle to daytime longdogs, or to good lamping dogs, and remember there was plenty of bull blood put into greyhounds back in the day. Terriers, well we’re do you start, all bred to fundamentally do the same thing, go to ground: Lakeland, fell, patterdale are all similar in working style and have been intercrossed many times producing some of the best earth dogs, though strains and types have been developed. The Russell’s have been bred more as baying dogs but with fashion plenty of white Lakeland and bull blood has been added as they have wained in popularity. Whippets would be the exception to the rule with running dogs as the very best are better than most small Lurcher’s.

This mythical thing called litter wastage has been spoken about many times on this thread, there is masses in the KC world too, labs with terrible hips/elbows even when both their parents have low scores as they were x-rayed when very young, hip displacia in GSD even the working strains. If we are honest, most dogs don’t make the grade due to poor human training, the dog blueprint, a NZ deer dog hunting training system demonstrates that a huge range of purebred and x’bred dogs can be outstanding hunting companions. The reality is there are far too many poor dogs bred from. It doesn’t matter if they are crossbred or purebred the vast majority should never have pups.

I’m far more of an advocate of breeding to be fit for purpose, concentrate on the traits you want and breed the best to the best and hope for the best. I personally believe the KC has a huge amount to answer for, most dogs aren’t fit for purpose, hence the show and working strains within breeds. Though the working stuff is driven my Field trial dogs which are definitely not what most general shooting men are after.
There are some amazing purebred dogs out there and I’m not advocating designer dog breeding but there is also some amazing mongrels, judge them on whether they are fit for purpose not on there pedigree.

Tin hat firmly on!
All very good but not really anything to do with people breeding miniature hairless bulldogs for 100k a pup.

The working comment on the first post was tongue in cheek
My gripe is designer pups for hanging from handbags .
Sold at amazing prices, including on this site.
 
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