223 non toxic ammo for Scottish roe
- Thread starter Longshot
- Start date
Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Longshot, whilst not wishing to tread on your thread (far from it - each to their own) I am interested to learn the reasons people are moving to non-lead.
May I ask why you are looking for non-toxic? (BTW I do take issue with the term "non-toxic", copper for example can be extremely toxic. "Non-lead" is probably a more sensible description)
Like I say, I am interested as to why. Is it due to landowners requirements, preparation for something that is yet to happen, a desire for no lead fragments in what you eat or a search
for greater accuracy ? (OK the last one was tongue in cheek)
Ade
May I ask why you are looking for non-toxic? (BTW I do take issue with the term "non-toxic", copper for example can be extremely toxic. "Non-lead" is probably a more sensible description)
Like I say, I am interested as to why. Is it due to landowners requirements, preparation for something that is yet to happen, a desire for no lead fragments in what you eat or a search
for greater accuracy ? (OK the last one was tongue in cheek)
Ade
Hi Ade, it is driven by the landowner's requirement which in turn is driven by his game dealer announcing that soon he will only accept beasts shot with non lead.Longshot, whilst not wishing to tread on your thread (far from it - each to their own) I am interested to learn the reasons people are moving to non-lead.
May I ask why you are looking for non-toxic? (BTW I do take issue with the term "non-toxic", copper for example can be extremely toxic. "Non-lead" is probably a more sensible description)
Like I say, I am interested as to why. Is it due to landowners requirements, preparation for something that is yet to happen, a desire for no lead fragments in what you eat or a search
for greater accuracy ? (OK the last one was tongue in cheek)
Ade
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
@Edinburgh Rifles has plenty of Roe deer legal non toxic 223 factory ammo and components that works in standard 1 in 12” barrels.
I agree with @Ade8mm copper is still toxic, non-lead is betterer.
Your bullet choice has a limitation regarding wieght/length which depends upon your barrels twist rate.
If it's a 1:12 you are limited to around 55gr, 1:8 opens thing up to around 70gr.
There are a number of choices, FOX (for example) from Ed @Edinburgh Rifles Fox Non Lead Bullets – Edinburgh Rifles
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Many landowners, in particular forest owners, are in some stewardship and certification schemes. They have to meet many different requirements to be in such schemes and for many use of lead free ammunition for shooting and wildlife management is a requirement.Longshot, whilst not wishing to tread on your thread (far from it - each to their own) I am interested to learn the reasons people are moving to non-lead.
May I ask why you are looking for non-toxic? (BTW I do take issue with the term "non-toxic", copper for example can be extremely toxic. "Non-lead" is probably a more sensible description)
Like I say, I am interested as to why. Is it due to landowners requirements, preparation for something that is yet to happen, a desire for no lead fragments in what you eat or a search
for greater accuracy ? (OK the last one was tongue in cheek)
Ade
For example about 60 to 70% of UK forestry is grown to the internationally recognised FSC Standard so any end product using that timber can carry the FSC Logo. There are new standards coming into force in 2023 regarding forest management and its effect on the environment. One little part is use of non toxic ammunition for all shooting activities on land which is within the scheme.
And consumers are increasingly aware of venison and game and there is a growing demand. But consumers and those selling venison want it as clean and healthy as possible. This is driving game dealers to ensure lead free supply chain.
There has also lots of coverage about availability of lead free venison and game. Most consumers and buyers would choose lead free if given the choice.
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Polar Lynx
Well-Known Member
Using Lapua Naturalis 50 gr in 1:12 for roe. Not precision like V-max but good enough. Hit animals run a bit so a dog on standby is recommended.
What’s “standard”?
What’s standard in one brand isnt in another and I personally would like to see twist rates on guns advertised for sale ..
Reasons for copper ….
After seeing X-rays of carcasses that shot with lead … even head shot beasts had lead “ vapour “ or dust all over the front half of carcass …..
No disputing that it’s toxic … exposure over time Alzheimer’s etc who knows
Other reason is for what little I sell it’s a selling point
Other & bigger reason I guess is lot of grounds are no making it a requirement & to be fair I’d rather get it going loaded developed and know it works so IF it becomes legal requirement I’m already there and going with it
Paul
What’s standard in one brand isnt in another and I personally would like to see twist rates on guns advertised for sale ..
Reasons for copper ….
After seeing X-rays of carcasses that shot with lead … even head shot beasts had lead “ vapour “ or dust all over the front half of carcass …..
No disputing that it’s toxic … exposure over time Alzheimer’s etc who knows
Other reason is for what little I sell it’s a selling point
Other & bigger reason I guess is lot of grounds are no making it a requirement & to be fair I’d rather get it going loaded developed and know it works so IF it becomes legal requirement I’m already there and going with it
Paul
The big difference in lead and copper is copper stays intact pretty much yet mushrooming out retaining its weight and of course copper is so toxic via contact it replaced lead in water pipes . Lead looses weight via shedding lead inside the beast along with the copper jacket .
Suck lead for a week and you will be seriously ill , copper ? you will have a strange taste in your mouth .
I liked lead bullets , i was used to lead bullets . I now choose lead free venison over leaded venison to feed my family.
Not keen on zinc though , have had zinc flu a number of times myself and its not nice at all ! One of my old workmates is still on meds 30 plus years later after a serious bout
Water is toxic if you drink too much , lets end this farce that copper is no better than lead regards bullets for killing out venison as its utter rubbish and makes are community appear stupid ! Removing old lead containing paint from a single old staircase can put you in hospital, i have yet to hear bad things about copper and the copper smiths and plumbers i know .
Besides the doubters with the right load and bullet choice i really do feel the better stuff kills deer faster than copper jacketed lead ! I have killed muntjac, CWD, Roe , Sika , Reds ( including the big guys at over 400 yds ) with the same 100 grain TTSX from the 260 rem and the only thing i can say is " its a bit much for the smaller species " .
Suck lead for a week and you will be seriously ill , copper ? you will have a strange taste in your mouth .
I liked lead bullets , i was used to lead bullets . I now choose lead free venison over leaded venison to feed my family.
Not keen on zinc though , have had zinc flu a number of times myself and its not nice at all ! One of my old workmates is still on meds 30 plus years later after a serious bout
Water is toxic if you drink too much , lets end this farce that copper is no better than lead regards bullets for killing out venison as its utter rubbish and makes are community appear stupid ! Removing old lead containing paint from a single old staircase can put you in hospital, i have yet to hear bad things about copper and the copper smiths and plumbers i know .
Besides the doubters with the right load and bullet choice i really do feel the better stuff kills deer faster than copper jacketed lead ! I have killed muntjac, CWD, Roe , Sika , Reds ( including the big guys at over 400 yds ) with the same 100 grain TTSX from the 260 rem and the only thing i can say is " its a bit much for the smaller species " .
My recollection is that copper is toxic to trees (hence the old trick knocking copper nails into a tree to kill it). Perhaps the Forestry Commission is shooting itself in the foot in respect of copper ricochets hitting their trees.
Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Hi Longshot. I understand your reasoning now. Your clarification is appreciated.
It adds to the the main. (hence my question)
Apologies for my earlier post, (since deleted) I got bogged-down reading other somewhat mostly partisan and vexatious posts.
Good luck in your search for a non-lead solution
Ade
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
Err....
How many people are you aware of that have ended up in hospital with lead poisoning from stripping staircases ect?
Likewise how many plumbers using lead for jointing?
And the real elephant, how many instances of lead poisoning from eating lead shot meat or poultry?
spent a while doing ironwork staircase rails for folks , quite a few actually, one had three warnings regards method and PPE . Lead workers have mandatory lead blood tests now, show high levels and you dont work , BTW its the same with Zinc in Galvanizing plants . Not aware of ant such testing of those working with copper though !
Lead pellets will pass through the system generally in little pullets , when lead spreads out in for want of a better description " A mist " thats why jacketed bullets loose significant weight .
The Lead debate is actually over and it started way back in history with white lead make -up . back in the early eighties we had to remove it from petrol , lets stop trying to argue the point - The horse died a long while back
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Well if I was a forestry manager and any stalking said he wasn’t going to use copper because of risk of hitting trees I would sack him on the spot.
A bullet should never be hitting trees. You should only ever shoot with a safe backdrop and trees, especially commercial forestry are not a safe backdrop.
Any competent stalker should know that.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
You really need to do a little research for yourself. There is plenty of evidence that demonstrates that injested lead is bioavailable. And plenty of evidence showing that long term exposure to lead causes all sorts of problems. Just have a read of the warnings on a box of ammo.
In terms of death from lead. There is good evidence showing a strong correlation between elevated levels of lead in the blood and aggressive cancers like leukaemia and small cell lung cancers. It appears that lead creates an environment that allows cancers to flourish.
So if you know anybody who has shot and eaten game and died of leukaemia or other cancers then chances are lead was a factor.
There are groups now working on cancer treatments that involve removing lead before applying chemo and early trials are very promising.
Longshot, whilst not wishing to tread on your thread (far from it - each to their own) I am interested to learn the reasons people are moving to non-lead.
May I ask why you are looking for non-toxic? (BTW I do take issue with the term "non-toxic", copper for example can be extremely toxic. "Non-lead" is probably a more sensible description)
Like I say, I am interested as to why. Is it due to landowners requirements, preparation for something that is yet to happen, a desire for no lead fragments in what you eat or a search
for greater accuracy ? (OK the last one was tongue in cheek)
Ade
Virtue signalling
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
With respect, that is not the answers to the questions I asked.
I never said lead wasn't harmful, I asked him to justify the statements he made with examples.
I've worked in the refinish industry for 40 years, you don't strip or rub ANY paint compounds down without PPE.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Try moving shot placement a little further forward. Half way up and in line with the front of leg, rather than more traditional 1/3 up and in line with rear of leg.
This takes out major nerves as well as aorta and top of heart and all beasts I shot drop on the spot. With monolithic meat damage is minimal. If you do clip a shoulder you cut away shot meat - typically a 3” diameter circle. You don’t loose most of a shoulder with meat full of lead fragments.
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