Nature agency culls Highland estate deer after landowner failure

[David Barker]

Yes, I was being somewhat flippant.

To continue in that vein, however, the repeated failure to meet cull targets by some wealthy estate owners, who employ professional stalkers, is neither a good advert for wealthy estate owners nor for the professional stalkers. Seeing the contempt in which both are held by the SNP, one can't help but think that wealthy estate owners are hastening their own demise, and that of the professional stalkers will quickly follow. It is all rather depressing.

Which begs the question; if professional stalkers can't control the numbers, and amateur stalkers are as useless as some here seem to suggest, what destiny awaits the deer population in Scotland? Presumably NatureScot's stalkers will be kept very busy in the coming years.

Loch Choire was just over the march from Ben Armine, which we visited for over 20 years. Loch Choire is a glorious spot, though without a lodge since it burnt down some years ago. With the current problems at Loch Choire being at least partly down to an absentee landlord it is perhaps a shame that the Duke of Sutherland no longer owns 1.4 million acres as he did back in the late 1870's.

That kind of land ownership, at least if it involves the old gentry - and particularly English old gentry - is now viewed as something akin to colonialism. However reading about the latest tranche of new landowners doesn't exactly instill great confidence either.

Who Owns Scotland? The millionaires buying up the Highlands

Climate-conscious millionaires are buying up huge areas of the Scottish Highlands and transforming how it is managed. These

www.reuters.com

This will just be a show piece to keep the ministers happy .They have always wanted the agency to use a section 9. Now the have done two large areas. One on a SSSI that in fact they (SNH) manage so no real problem fighting a landowner. and now this one. Looks good on paper . If there were more culls needed Nature .scot could not cope they would need loads more cash and staff. They all the agency's are already fudging the figures regards deer control costs.

 

[bogtrotter]

There is already an imbalance between males and females Much less mature stags than used to be stag population tending younger .
Hind numbers many times greater than stags
If you.want to reduce numbers concentrate on the females the same applies to all deer species.

 

[Dave_45]

There is already an imbalance between males and females Much less mature stags than used to be stag population tending younger .
Hind numbers many times greater than stags
If you.want to reduce numbers concentrate on the females the same applies to all deer species.

I've noticed this in older generation stalkers , they almost refuse to shoot hinds at all.
But stags and bucks readily get the good news.
Sadly it's some of these guys that have the leases and ground and you know how that goes.

 

[bogtrotter]

I've noticed this in older generation stalkers , they almost refuse to shoot hinds at all.
But stags and bucks readily get the good news.
Sadly it's some of these guys that have the leases and ground and you know how that goes.

A big mistake that.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

Anyone who thinks this is done to promote biodiversity in the uplands is a fool. This is nothing more than the Scottish government’s attack on what they see as “wealthy landowners”. I would of thought that overgrazing by sheep and afforestation with non native species is a bigger threat, along with unrestricted public access.

What would stop this landowner putting 10,000 sheep on the hill? Are they going to come and cull them? I doubt it.

I also hate the constant bashing of so called wealthy people.

 

[Island]

There is already an imbalance between males and females Much less mature stags than used to be stag population tending younger .
Hind numbers many times greater than stags
If you.want to reduce numbers concentrate on the females the same applies to all deer species.

I've noticed this in older generation stalkers , they almost refuse to shoot hinds at all.
But stags and bucks readily get the good news.
Sadly it's some of these guys that have the leases and ground and you know how that goes.

Was always going to be a problem with the increasing commercialisation of deer stalking. Plenty of people wishing to live out their dreams of a scottish trophy; warm, late-September sunshine on the open hill or idyllic summer sunrises on pastoral lands. The market is responding, as capitalism does, in the most short sighted way, viz: give the people what they want. Estates managed their deer with a weather-eye toward balancing herd health and ground-capacity / conflict of interest with other estate concerns (i.e. farming and forestry), nowadays there are a lot of stalking entities that "manage" their herds with an eye toward maximising profit from the paying punter (and that means "antler"...)

There are a damn-sight less people willing to go sprockling up an icy burn, 2000' up a mountain, middle of January during a blizzard in an attempt to get into a group of wary hinds and take as many as possible; or slide around in puddle-ridden fields in an attempt to thin out the does in the pouring December rain. And then do it again the next day....and the next....and the next....

I have been watching this thread since it started and have deliberately avoided commenting until now, simply because I really can't be bothered arguing, but the notion that the "overpopulation problem" in Scotland (something that itself is not as clear-cut as many seem to think, ScotGov figures include lowland and central-belt Roe numbers which are ridiculously out of control alongside Red numbers which in many areas are within the target density) could be resolved by letting recreational stalkers have-at-them for nothing whenever they feel like it is simply risable.

 

[rem284]

Why is it that people in deer stalking can't grasp that professional deer stalkers are more efficient than the average deer stalker? You would never question that a chippy hanging doors would be far better and faster or a bricky laying bricks be far more efficient than a DIYer. It's just a result of having all the equipment and experience.

Because they think they can maybe get some free shooting, do the agency and tax payer a huge favour by saving all the costs. They probably haven't got a clue that it is actually hard work and multiple people with multiple skills and equipment required. I reality it would cost more the give Joe Reci Stalker a chance, be a nightmare to manage and the job would still need done.

 

[slider]

One wonders how the Department of Natural Resources manages in the US?

In 2020-21 deer hunters there culled 6.3 million white-tailed deer alone. I doubt every one of those hunters had an Argocat, yet somehow they seem to manage.

A vastly greater hunting population and a much lesser deer density. Totally different terrain.
Not sure about the US but in Canada every second person in rural areas seem to own a pick up and an ATV. They all hunt but only get one tag a year.

 

[willie_gunn]

Why is it that people in deer stalking can't grasp that professional deer stalkers are more efficient than the average deer stalker? You would never question that a chippy hanging doors would be far better and faster or a bricky laying bricks be far more efficient than a DIYer. It's just a result of having all the equipment and experience.

Of course professional stalkers are more efficient than the average deer stalker. I would d*mn well hope so too, as it's the job they are being paid to do.

However the plain fact is that the deer population continues to expand, despite their sterling efforts. It would be fantastic if this meant more professional stalkers will be employed, and perhaps some will, but sadly I doubt this is going to be enough, not least because the economics are unlikely to support it.

So an answer to the overall control of the deer population - whether in Scotland or the whole of the UK - is going to require a combined approach from the deer stalking fraternity, whether professional, semi-pro or amateur. Otherwise we will be reading more and more examples identical to Loch Choire.

 

[Kalahari]

Please don't go off about BASC, but how does the Arran scheme figure in the picture?

David.

 

[Mick9abf]

Perhaps people should consider what no one is speaking about but has been mentioned and was reported.

The estate didn’t engage with the local DMG and the numbers were far too high - there is a reason for this and that needs to be addressed. That is a small part of the world and attitudes and priorities in the Strath vary considerably shall we say.

Everyone will have their own view but a free for all using recreational stalkers certainly isn’t the answer. It is a lovely part of the country to stalk in right enough.

 

[Island]

Of course professional stalkers are more efficient than the average deer stalker. I would d*mn well hope so too, as it's the job they are being paid to do.

However the plain fact is that the deer population continues to expand, despite their sterling efforts. It would be fantastic if this meant more professional stalkers will be employed, and perhaps some will, but sadly I doubt this is going to be enough, not least because the economics are unlikely to support it.

So an answer to the overall control of the deer population - whether in Scotland or the whole of the UK - is going to require a combined approach from the deer stalking fraternity, whether professional, semi-pro or amateur. Otherwise we will be reading more and more examples identical to Loch Choire.

Situations like Loch Choire will remain overall only a very occasional thing, simply because a Section 8 control enforcement is (quite rightly) the ultimate step that ScotGov can take. A landowner is given plenty time (years in many cases) to resolve the issue before Nature Scot can enforce an outside cull. As stated previously the oft-quoted "overpopulation problem" is a very ambiguous statement. It is a carefully massaged figure that suits ScotGov in it's crusade against absentee-Lairds (a hatred based mainly on xenophobia and political ideology) and self-titled "conservation NGO's" desperate for subsidy and the chance to virtue signal. In most areas in Scotland the Red numbers remain within the original target-densities (something that has annoyed ScotGov so much that they have drastically reduced the target density, using reforestation as an excuse)

The major problem in Scotland now is Roe. The population has exploded in the southern and central areas, allowing the Shortbread Senate to declare that we are being overrun by "deer" (generically).

The problem with knocking back Roe numbers is twofold. Firstly, every farmer now knows that they have a considerable monetary value (in ground rent) because so many people are desperate to have "their own shooting grounds"; and secondly, most recreational stalkers are keen to "maintain their sport", they will simply not shoot the numbers required to have any meaningful impact on a countrywide scale.

 

[Freeforester]

The matter of scale also needs to be borne in mind: one Grampian estate were obliged to take 1,000 head this year. This was achieved by sustained use of contracted assistance.

 

[Island]

The matter of scale also needs to be borne in mind: one Grampian estate were obliged to take 1,000 head this year. This was achieved by sustained use of contracted assistance.

And in a situation like that it is easy for a governmental agency to point the finger at a large chunk of single-ownership and , more importantly, single-management land and say "this needs sorted".

It is a lot more difficult to do on an area of the same size but is a patchwork of perhaps hundreds of separate farms, all owned by different people and all leasing "stalking rights" to recreational stalkers who have an interest in maintaining Roe numbers at a shootable level....

 

[Ratel]

The old saying about Highland estates in my view is still firm." Owning one is tantamount to standing in a cold shower ripping up £20 notes".
As boggy says the females are the answer and our cull on Fallow is usually 75 per cent does, it's the only way to cut numbers. Having spent time on high ground in mid winter taking off hinds and doing the same to assist with a friend's cull after game shooting finished it certainly ain't glorious fun. If you have never done it, just imagine lying in a cold bath in wet clothes with cold air being forced over you, that's what you're average high ground man does six days a week. And after mauling them to the larder you still have to do the rest. Yes there are a great many good recreational stalkers who are more than capable of doing it, but it certainly isn't fun and may be the only job available in the more remote glens apart from shepherding. Loch Choire like Ben Armine and other Duke of S ground was a good estate and to me it's just a pity this had to happen. I remember seeing Feshie (one of my old bosses former estates) and the slaughter there and am still sickened by it. In conclusion IMHO it ain't a job for most and those not used to it would fail in a week.

 

[Pete6.5]

Of course professional stalkers are more efficient than the average deer stalker. I would d*mn well hope so too, as it's the job they are being paid to do.

However the plain fact is that the deer population continues to expand, despite their sterling efforts. It would be fantastic if this meant more professional stalkers will be employed, and perhaps some will, but sadly I doubt this is going to be enough, not least because the economics are unlikely to support it.

So an answer to the overall control of the deer population - whether in Scotland or the whole of the UK - is going to require a combined approach from the deer stalking fraternity, whether professional, semi-pro or amateur. Otherwise we will be reading more and more examples identical to Loch Choire.

The whole deer population issue is a complicated one with many theories for a answer. Maybe the amateur stalkers are managing a large chunk of ground and not being efficient and shooting enough and then the landowner is using it as an excuse saying someone is stalking their ground so job done and then doesn't want to employ someone that can put the time in ( mid week) to shoot enough deer.
I don't believe either answer to be honest but the only way to find out is with data but very few people keep enough of it to find out.
It's only since one of my contracts has been asking me to keep very detailed records that I started to see the hurdles in achieving the numbers required.

 

[willie_gunn]

Situations like Loch Choire will remain overall only a very occasional thing, simply because a Section 8 control enforcement is (quite rightly) the ultimate step that ScotGov can take. A landowner is given plenty time (years in many cases) to resolve the issue before Nature Scot can enforce an outside cull. As stated previously the oft-quoted "overpopulation problem" is a very ambiguous statement. It is a carefully massaged figure that suits ScotGov in it's crusade against absentee-Lairds (a hatred based mainly on xenophobia and political ideology) and self-titled "conservation NGO's" desperate for subsidy and the chance to virtue signal. In most areas in Scotland the Red numbers remain within the original target-densities (something that has annoyed ScotGov so much that they have drastically reduced the target density, using reforestation as an excuse)

The major problem in Scotland now is Roe. The population has exploded in the southern and central areas, allowing the Shortbread Senate to declare that we are being overrun by "deer" (generically).

The problem with knocking back Roe numbers is twofold. Firstly, every farmer now knows that they have a considerable monetary value (in ground rent) because so many people are desperate to have "their own shooting grounds"; and secondly, most recreational stalkers are keen to "maintain their sport", they will simply not shoot the numbers required to have any meaningful impact on a countrywide scale.

I’d add a third - the increasing problem of urban and peri-urban deer, particularly roe in Scotland.

Stalkers want their own ground, but ideally where it’s undisturbed by the general public.

 

[Dave_45]

I’d add a third - the increasing problem of urban and peri-urban deer, particularly roe in Scotland.

Stalkers want their own ground, but ideally where it’s undisturbed by the general public.

Sections of the M8 in Glasgow were rampant with roe deer during covid , I counted 30 in a stretch less than 1 mile

 

[Malxwal]

I heard tell of bits down that way where the roe are like mushrooms, doesn't seem to matter how many get shot, they just reappear overnight.

 

[User00038]

It's only since one of my contracts has been asking me to keep very detailed records that I started to see the hurdles in achieving the numbers required.

In the thread about the sex ratio that people shoot, there were a couple of responses that suggested they thought they were shooting more does than bucks but counting up the records, it was nearer 50/50. For fallow, I thought I was shooting 10% bucks but counting up it's nearer 30%.