BASC warns Bill adds pressure to deer sector

[Ratel]

You are on another planet - a very negative one

These places now - because they are managed are the last reservoirs of golden plover , lapwing , curlew and full of snipe, lark - pipit

He certainly is. Just take a trip through the Wicklow Mountains. Acres and acres stripped of heather for peat. No moorland management, hence no grouse and few waders. I stalked a.big piece of that area for a while, never saw one grouse, plenty Sika and Red lookalikes, no Harriers and no Merlin's or Short eared owls.
Just barren waste of old deep heather, very sad.
Revisited recently, now National park signs everywhere, still no Grouse or Waders, just deer.

 

[David Barker]

I think it is important to ask the question what do the government want. The DMRO,S do not work south of Stirling so are of no real importance. What they will do is close off some of our future deer managers. Are we ready to move across to full control deer sector when most of our deer are shot for free and come from an area that the government departments care very little about. The working group which started with 3 members and ended with only two members were answerable to government and pulled the system apart. That said the new DMRO,S Were put forward in the main by the new strategic deer Board head by NS, Robbie Kernahan and others from the Forestry sector and the wildlife charity sector. Are we who manage the deer in the industrialised central belt doomed not quite but sadly we will be effected by these new policy,s

 

[Mungo]

I think it is important to ask the question what do the government want. The DMRO,S do not work south of Stirling so are of no real importance. What they will do is close off some of our future deer managers. Are we ready to move across to full control deer sector when most of our deer are shot for free and come from an area that the government departments care very little about. The working group which started with 3 members and ended with only two members were answerable to government and pulled the system apart. That said the new DMRO,S Were put forward in the main by the new strategic deer Board head by NS, Robbie Kernahan and others from the Forestry sector and the wildlife charity sector. Are we who manage the deer in the industrialised central belt doomed not quite but sadly we will be effected by these new policy,s

Apparently the wording of the DMNROs was a classic ‘back of a fag packet’ job. A bunch of NS execs plus the Scientific Advisory Committee and other worthies were taken on a jolly day out to Corrour. It was all very lovely, and they were encouraged to imagine all of the Highlands looking like that. They stood around after a good lunch on a bit of hillside and mourned the Great Wilderness That Once Was.

With a sense of righteousness induced by green nostalgia, they decided that evidence and monitoring would just slow down the return to a natural state. So they quickly dashed off the wording. It was never scrutinised or edited again.

As one of the people who was there said to me later “well, can you really think of any genuinely negative outcomes of just shooting all the deer? I mean, it doesn’t matter if we’re wrong.”

 

[Mickeydredd]

The snipe and pipits will adapt, so will the grouse and the sporting tenants.

No they won't. When you remove the management and plant all the moorland with trees, the grouse will become an endangered species and if you have removed all the suitable heather moorland then there is no quick rescue solution available.

Its quite simple and clear from my own piece of land here, they used to shoot 50 brace of grouse in a day before they even reached the heather, and now they are a handful of grouse on circa 2000 acres - what is it that you don't get?

 

[Dunwaters]

No they won't. When you remove the management and plant all the moorland with trees, the grouse will become an endangered species and if you have removed all the suitable heather moorland then there is no quick rescue solution available.

Its quite simple and clear from my own piece of land here, they used to shoot 50 brace of grouse in a day before they even reached the heather, and now they are a handful of grouse on circa 2000 acres - what is it that you don't get?

I actually DO get it, I’m neither for or against what’s proposed, its policy which is tied to your national commitments on climate change and carbon capture.
So it’s going to happen, just like you’re going to be forced out of your diesel car very shortly.
A major part of your carbon capture plan involves planting trees or allowing trees or shrubs to grow where there are none now. Have a look around, where do you think all these trees are going? They’re not going on lowland tillage farms ( they’ll be covered in solar energy panels) so where’s left thats not already planted?
You’re absolutely correct about grouse numbers too, remove the management and numbers will crash from what you currently have to a far lower number, but they won’t disappear entirely. It’ll be similar to here, a few coveys scratching out a living with a very long hike between sightings, you definitely will not have the concentrations you rely on for driven shoots.
Once they get rare maybe the RSPB will decide to manage some of their reserves for grouse because people will be prepared to pay to see one. I think they’ve had this in mind for a while.
The countryside is not fixed in an acrylic block or a museum, to be looked at but never touched or changed. It is evolving and the proposed changes are probably the most impactful we’ll ever see.
But we WILL see them, and we will definitely see major shifts in land use and wildlife populations because of them.

 

[Mickeydredd]

This is an estate in the Midlands. There is a sole patch of heather left. Along with the accompanying sign, how sad is this?!

I’ve seen the future …..

 

[LuckyEddie]

Once they get rare maybe the RSPB will decide to manage some of their reserves for grouse because people will be prepared to pay to see one. I think they’ve had this in mind for a while.

I doubt it as they have failed miserably in the case of the capercaillie.

The countryside is not fixed in an acrylic block or a museum, to be looked at but never touched or changed. It is evolving and the proposed changes are probably the most impactful we’ll ever see.

The issue is that people want to restore it a past time and keep it at that point. It therefore goes against your logic.

 

[Dunwaters]

This is an estate in the Midlands. There is a sole patch of heather left. Along with the accompanying sign, how sad is this?!

I’ve seen the future …..

Looks like the heather got choked out by grasses and sedges, possibly as a result of grazing pressure, but I’ll bet it wasn’t solely deer doing the grazing.

 

[Mungo]

Looks like the heather got choked out by grasses and sedges, possibly as a result of grazing pressure, but I’ll bet it wasn’t solely deer doing the grazing.

Alternatively it’s just marginal ground for heather anyway.

I did a veg survey on an estate this summer. Owner wanted to know why he had so little heather when all the surrounding estates were covered in it. He was trying to work out if he had too many sheep/deer or too few, and if he needed to change his management regime.

Simple answer: no sir. Your ancestors put in a lot of drainage and dumped untold tonnes of lime and fertiliser. The soil chemistry is completely different now, and the heather just doesn’t like it.

Not a lot you can do now…

I laugh when people go on about how keepered moorland is some sort of biodiversity paradise. Very good for a narrow range of species (grouse, 4-5 species of ground nesting birds), total disaster for everything else, from soil microbes through plants to insects and birds.

Not to say block planted Sitka is any better, mind. From a biodiversity perspective, the best is open birch-willow-alder scrub with a heather/vaccinium understory. But that gets f*ck all carbon credits and is no good for driven shooting, so no one wants it. Fantastic to stalk in though!

 

[NullMac]

People are taking this too personally, like there is a unique agenda to control shooting.

The fact is the SNP are trying to take control of everything. Rearing dogs and Botox injections being the latest aspirations.

Apparently there is nothing in Scotland that should not be controlled by the State and the Public Sector grows exponentially to achieve this.

Far from jumping to force involuntary culls, I know of at least one instance of an Estate failing in its basic undertakings for years then negotiating subsidy when it finally got its act together. The surrounding estates who had been doing their bit were delighted, honest.

Rather than getting all raggedy arsed about the SNP and their power fantasies, look behind the obvious. You think the guy getting the subsidy needs it? nah he is a foreign billionaire. They are all noise about ‘foreign’ owners of Scotland but are quietly handing out big wads to them at the same time.

Personally I don’t think we will ever see another forced cull after the last debacle. They already have the powers but don’t use them

 

[NullMac]

The hares get hammered because they nibble trees during winter when other food is scarce.
Not sure if there is any more up-to-date info.

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Of course. Nothing changes you just need a wee ticket. It’s job creation. And they can have a 4 day week because the job is pointless.